Discussion:
Who Knew ?
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Andreas Kohlbach
2021-11-01 17:52:08 UTC
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More than that, operating in small model mode, you could pretty much
run 8080 code through a translator and port CP/M programs to it
easily.
The business market had been taken by the 8080/z80 and CP/M while the
hobbysist were all using 6502s.
Hmm. If you consider the "bedroom coders" in the UK hobbyists - they
mainly coded on the ZX Spectrum (may some on the ZX81/80 before), which
has a Z80 CPU.
Most UK 'home' computers were *not* based on a z80.
Sinclair came very late to the party.
First micro I saw was altair 8800 - s100 bus. 8080. That was serious
. 1974 or thereabouts
"Home computers" are described from any micro as the Altair 8800
(designed 1974 but showed up in January 1975 to start the craze). True,
that one had a 8080.
The Apple 1 was around 1973, 6502 again
It was released 1976. The 6502 itself is from 1975. About 200 Apple 1
were produced, making it a collector's item today. Only with the Apple 2
a year later they produced large quantities.
Then the Apple II, PET and trash 80 came a couple of years later.
1977.
Only the trash 80 was z80. But it could be used in business.
I think the TRS-80 can also be considered a non-business computer.
At that time the split was clear. CP/M was for business and ran on
Z80s/8080s.
UK "Home micros" with a Z80 (ZX Spectrum, Amstrad CPCs, ...) where not
shipped with CP/M, although you could probably run it. Did this (in an
emulator) with the CPC

6502s were for hobbyists writing in basic and assembler.
The UK market (and that's what we're talking here about) saw more Z80
based ZX (Spectrum, 81/80) machines that Commodore 64s.

But the UK saw also a big number of Acorn computers, which ran a
6502. Those, like Apple 2s, were rather expensive that they were mainly
used in the education sector.

If you check some links of
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_computers> it can be
noticed that most of the used a Z80.
As for 6809s - great chip. No one really used it.
The TRS color computer and "clone" Dragon 32/64 did. Latter also sold in
numbers.

[...]
OK, there were many using a C64 (6510, similar to a 6502) and the
Oric,
which sold reasonably well in the UK and France back in the day.
But considering me as hobbyist back in the 1980s I indeed started to
code
in assembler on a 6502 (C64).
Exactly. Wasn't Apple II a 6502 as well?
Yes, but at least in Europe to expensive for the common user. Outside the
UK most got a C64, while in the UK Spectrums ruled the market.

F'up2 alt.folklore.computers
--
Andreas
Quadibloc
2021-11-02 00:38:01 UTC
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Post by Andreas Kohlbach
Only the trash 80 was z80. But it could be used in business.
I think the TRS-80 can also be considered a non-business computer.
Indeed. The Model II and the Model 16 were designed for businesses, and
they were actually fairly decent computers for that purpose.

John Savard
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
2021-11-02 05:19:44 UTC
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On Mon, 01 Nov 2021 19:27:59 -0400
Thanks for the info, my assumption was probably wrong.
Possibly a simple matter of time - things changed very fast through
the late 70s and mid 80s.
Cannot remember I have seen one in the stores back in the day. OK, was a
small German town with only three stores carrying computers. They had
Commodore 64 as of 1983, Atari 8-bit and later ZX Spectrums ad
It was 1978 when we were selling TRS-80s into businesses, by 83
there were a lot of better choices for business use and the TRS-80 line
mostly went to home use - there were some business models but they didn't
do well against CP/M, MP/M and soon after the IBM PC clones destroyed all
the diversity.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
1p166
2021-11-03 04:27:54 UTC
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up
But the IBM-PC murdered them all. Wasn't THAT great
of a PC, but it had the weight of IBM behind it.
:-(
Apple managed to carve out its own niche, but the
others went under eventually ... though Commodore
made a fair try with the Amigas.
Commodore techs made a fair try. Commodore management
ran the company into the ground.
Rats. Sinking ship. What did you expect ? Pretend
make an visible effort, to keep the stock prices up
while cashing-in to the max.

Commodore was OVER. It had its day in the sun but
IBM (& clones) and Apple were IT - the future.
Whatever Amiga could do, Mac could do, or soon
do, better - and had a bigger customer base.

The Market at the time was consolidating. Only
two main players. All the fringe players were
OUT. Take the money and RUN.

Sorry, but Amiga was NOT a competitor. It had
its good features, but others, better capitalized,
soon copied and exceeded them.

That's the way it goes.

Whatever the Next Big Thing is, there will initially
be a bunch of players. Again, probably TWO will become
IT and all the others will wither away.

And even that duality will be something of a lie ...
the BIG people will have stock/influence in BOTH
"sides". Humans LOVE "duality", choices or false
choices. PLAY that psychology for profit.

Cynical ? Check it out. REAL.

MS is heavily invested in Apple and vice-versa.
Check it out, you can confirm that. The "sides"
are all for show, a way of goading consumers
and pushing out competitors. Swear your loyalty
to Winders or Mac ! So EXCITING to choose a side.

The Big Money people had this figured out LONG
ago - centuries ago actually. Even Machivelli
understood the utility of cultivating those
fake "sides".
Charlie Gibbs
2021-11-03 17:18:41 UTC
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Post by 1p166
MS is heavily invested in Apple and vice-versa.
Check it out, you can confirm that.
Back in the '80s, M$ made Apple an outright gift of
$150 million. Apple was the only thing keeping the
Department of Justice off Microsoft's back, so Apple
had to be kept alive, but weak.

Unfortunately for M$, Apple didn't remain weak.
Post by 1p166
The "sides"
are all for show, a way of goading consumers
and pushing out competitors. Swear your loyalty
to Winders or Mac ! So EXCITING to choose a side.
The Big Money people had this figured out LONG
ago - centuries ago actually. Even Machivelli
understood the utility of cultivating those
fake "sides".
The more things change, the more they remain the same.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Life is perverse.
\ / <***@kltpzyxm.invalid> | It can be beautiful -
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | but it won't.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lily Tomlin
Charlie Gibbs
2021-11-03 17:18:41 UTC
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On Wed, 3 Nov 2021 00:27:54 -0400
Post by 1p166
The Big Money people had this figured out LONG
ago - centuries ago actually. Even Machivelli
understood the utility of cultivating those
fake "sides".
Sadly this and all above it is all too true - the lessons of
Machiavelli and Sun Tzu are well understood by the major players and have
been polished for centuries into a smooth art. In a similar vein I fairly
recently re-read Orwell's 1984 and found it shockingly simplistic and naive,
that was a sobering discovery.
It was a bit heavy-handed, perhaps, but still relevant in many ways.
The telescreens have not only been deployed, but improved beyond
what was in the book. At least Orwell's telescreens stayed on the
wall instead of following you around the house.

My wife and I just finished re-reading both _Animal Farm_ and
_Brave New World_. Both are frighteningly close to what we're
seeing today, although _Brave New World's_ "soma" has been
replaced by social media.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs |
\ / <***@kltpzyxm.invalid> | "Alexa, define 'bugging'."
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus |
/ \ if you read it the right way. |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
2021-11-03 19:58:06 UTC
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On Wed, 03 Nov 2021 17:18:41 GMT
Post by Charlie Gibbs
On Wed, 3 Nov 2021 00:27:54 -0400
Post by 1p166
The Big Money people had this figured out LONG
ago - centuries ago actually. Even Machivelli
understood the utility of cultivating those
fake "sides".
Sadly this and all above it is all too true - the lessons of
Machiavelli and Sun Tzu are well understood by the major players and
have been polished for centuries into a smooth art. In a similar vein I
fairly recently re-read Orwell's 1984 and found it shockingly
simplistic and naive, that was a sobering discovery.
It was a bit heavy-handed, perhaps, but still relevant in many ways.
The telescreens have not only been deployed, but improved beyond
what was in the book. At least Orwell's telescreens stayed on the
wall instead of following you around the house.
What Orwell missed completely was that all of this has not needed
to be imposed by an authoritative Big Brother with lethal enforcement but
rather has been dangled and freely chosen like Coffiest.

Orwell made it look like it should be easy to avoid developing a
society like that, just keep hold of the essential freedoms and your good -
right ? Wrong, as it turns out it's far easier to keep people in line with
carrots than sticks, and carrots leave far more room for subtlety just as
there are far more subtle ways of keeping people scared than an endless
rotating war. Like I say simplistic and naive.
Post by Charlie Gibbs
My wife and I just finished re-reading both _Animal Farm_ and
_Brave New World_. Both are frighteningly close to what we're
seeing today, although _Brave New World's_ "soma" has been
replaced by social media.
For sure, both of those speak to deep rooted truths about human
nature - sad really. Just wait till we get sentient robots and reinvent
slavery.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Charlie Gibbs
2021-11-03 21:34:37 UTC
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Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Wed, 03 Nov 2021 17:18:41 GMT
Post by Charlie Gibbs
On Wed, 3 Nov 2021 00:27:54 -0400
Post by 1p166
The Big Money people had this figured out LONG
ago - centuries ago actually. Even Machivelli
understood the utility of cultivating those
fake "sides".
Sadly this and all above it is all too true - the lessons of
Machiavelli and Sun Tzu are well understood by the major players and
have been polished for centuries into a smooth art. In a similar vein I
fairly recently re-read Orwell's 1984 and found it shockingly
simplistic and naive, that was a sobering discovery.
It was a bit heavy-handed, perhaps, but still relevant in many ways.
The telescreens have not only been deployed, but improved beyond
what was in the book. At least Orwell's telescreens stayed on the
wall instead of following you around the house.
What Orwell missed completely was that all of this has not needed
to be imposed by an authoritative Big Brother with lethal enforcement but
rather has been dangled and freely chosen like Coffiest.
Yes, it didn't occur to Orwell that Big Brother would actually turn out
to be Big Business. But let's face it, that one went past most people
(but not Pohl & Kornbluth, as you point out).
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Orwell made it look like it should be easy to avoid developing a
society like that, just keep hold of the essential freedoms and your good -
right ? Wrong, as it turns out it's far easier to keep people in line with
carrots than sticks, and carrots leave far more room for subtlety just as
there are far more subtle ways of keeping people scared than an endless
rotating war. Like I say simplistic and naive.
Post by Charlie Gibbs
My wife and I just finished re-reading both _Animal Farm_ and
_Brave New World_. Both are frighteningly close to what we're
seeing today, although _Brave New World's_ "soma" has been
replaced by social media.
For sure, both of those speak to deep rooted truths about human
nature - sad really. Just wait till we get sentient robots and reinvent
slavery.
Societies seem to need a slave class. _Brave New World_ described this
in some detail. We thought that machines would take the place of this
class - but instead have turned out to be agents of the ruling class.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Life is perverse.
\ / <***@kltpzyxm.invalid> | It can be beautiful -
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | but it won't.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lily Tomlin
Quadibloc
2021-11-04 16:51:30 UTC
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Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
What Orwell missed completely was that all of this has not needed
to be imposed by an authoritative Big Brother with lethal enforcement but
rather has been dangled and freely chosen like Coffiest.
Yes, it didn't occur to Orwell that Big Brother would actually turn out
to be Big Business. But let's face it, that one went past most people
(but not Pohl & Kornbluth, as you point out).
Orwell was reacting, perhaps, to McCarthyism, by warning of the danger
that a long-continued Cold War could cause the West to become like the
Soviet Union.

Since Brave New World was already out there, the alternative of an iron fist
hidden in a velvet glove had been addressed in literature already; his goal
was not to imitate it.

John Savard
Rich Alderson
2021-11-04 19:37:06 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
What Orwell missed completely was that all of this has not needed
to be imposed by an authoritative Big Brother with lethal enforcement but
rather has been dangled and freely chosen like Coffiest.
Yes, it didn't occur to Orwell that Big Brother would actually turn out
to be Big Business. But let's face it, that one went past most people
(but not Pohl & Kornbluth, as you point out).
Orwell was reacting, perhaps, to McCarthyism, by warning of the danger
that a long-continued Cold War could cause the West to become like the
Soviet Union.
Since Brave New World was already out there, the alternative of an iron fist
hidden in a velvet glove had been addressed in literature already; his goal
was not to imitate it.
_Animal Farm_ was published in 1945, _1984_ in 1948.

Senator Joseph McCarthy made his first speech about his "list of Communists in
the State Department" in 1950.

I do not believe that Eric Blair was reacting to anything in the US, but rather
to the Stalinist takeover of the international Communist Party starting in the
Spanish Civil War.

Reference: _Cold Warriors: Writers who Waged the Literary Cold War_ by Duncan
White, 2019. Covers both Western and Soviet writers, and I recommend it highly.
--
Rich Alderson ***@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen
Maus
2021-11-05 15:13:43 UTC
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Post by Rich Alderson
I do not believe that Eric Blair was reacting to anything in the US, but rather
to the Stalinist takeover of the international Communist Party starting in the
Spanish Civil War.
Reference: _Cold Warriors: Writers who Waged the Literary Cold War_ by Duncan
White, 2019. Covers both Western and Soviet writers, and I recommend it highly.
Just got it down as an EBook, looks interesting.
--
***@mail.com
That's not a mousehole!
711 Spooky Mart
2021-11-04 20:22:10 UTC
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On 11/4/21 11:51 AM, Quadibloc wrote:

[...]
Post by Quadibloc
Orwell was reacting, perhaps, to McCarthyism, by warning of the danger
that a long-continued Cold War could cause the West to become like the
Soviet Union.
YGBSM.

McCarthy was right. You are witnessing and living through a communist
color revolution in the United States and the west in general. Your
denial of the obvious with this anti-McCarthy tripe is just gross.

The communists has already infiltrated academia and the media industrial
complex. They were infiltrating the Federal Government and were building
a revolutionary color revolution force within the ranks of our own
government. McCarthy was on to them. Communism always equals death and
mass murder. Vide Cuba if you have any doubts.

They are using Stalin's salami-slicer strategy right now with the
nonsensical COVID pandemic and the constant left vs. right agitation.
The Bolsheviks did the same tactics before they mass murdered tens of
millions of people.

If you think you are safe by working with them, know this. After they
take power, the first round of people they line up against the wall and
shoot is the intelligentsia who helped them take over. It's called tying
up loose ends.
--
──┏━━━━┓──┏━━┓───┏━━┓── ┌────────────────────────┐ ┌────────┐
──┗━━┓─┃──┗┓─┃───┗┓─┃── │ Spooky Mart [chan] 711 │ │ always │
─────┃─┃──┏┛─┗┓──┏┛─┗┓─ │ https://bitmessage.org │ │ open │
─────┗━┛──┗━━━┛──┗━━━┛─ └────────────────────────┘ └────────┘
Maus
2021-11-05 15:22:03 UTC
Reply
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Post by 711 Spooky Mart
[...]
Post by Quadibloc
Orwell was reacting, perhaps, to McCarthyism, by warning of the danger
that a long-continued Cold War could cause the West to become like the
Soviet Union.
YGBSM.
McCarthy was right. You are witnessing and living through a communist
color revolution in the United States and the west in general. Your
denial of the obvious with this anti-McCarthy tripe is just gross.
The communists has already infiltrated academia and the media industrial
complex. They were infiltrating the Federal Government and were building
a revolutionary color revolution force within the ranks of our own
government. McCarthy was on to them. Communism always equals death and
mass murder. Vide Cuba if you have any doubts.
They are using Stalin's salami-slicer strategy right now with the
nonsensical COVID pandemic and the constant left vs. right agitation.
The Bolsheviks did the same tactics before they mass murdered tens of
millions of people.
If you think you are safe by working with them, know this. After they
take power, the first round of people they line up against the wall and
shoot is the intelligentsia who helped them take over. It's called tying
up loose ends.
One should remember that in the recent electins in Russia, the
communists came a close second to Putin's party.

A lot of ex-communists have told me,
Under Communism, we had cheap housing, not great housing, but cheap.
Under Communism, we had jobs, not great jobs, but jobs

etc, etc.
--
***@mail.com
That's not a mousehole!
D.J.
2021-11-05 17:05:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by 711 Spooky Mart
[...]
Post by Quadibloc
Orwell was reacting, perhaps, to McCarthyism, by warning of the danger
that a long-continued Cold War could cause the West to become like the
Soviet Union.
YGBSM.
McCarthy was right. You are witnessing and living through a communist
color revolution in the United States and the west in general. Your
denial of the obvious with this anti-McCarthy tripe is just gross.
McCarthy went after the wrong people. And the big thing now in the US
is a surgence of Facism.
Quadibloc
2021-11-04 17:02:39 UTC
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Societies seem to need a slave class. _Brave New World_ described this
in some detail. We thought that machines would take the place of this
class - but instead have turned out to be agents of the ruling class.
And here I thought that the slave class subsidizing the people of Western
industrialized nations such as the one I live in as well as your own was the
labor force of the PRC.

Yet, the time when Canada, the United States, and much of the world was
happiest was when there was no 'slave class'; in the early 'sixties, we made
our own TV sets and radios, out of vacuum tubes even, and so there were
decent jobs for everyone.

Still, despite the pandemic, we're having the Great Resignation - apparently
the world is currently in what will become known as the YouTube Bubble.

Having only recently - some two million years ago - evolved from the
chimpanzee, it might not be too outrageous to suppose that a significant
proportion of the human race is not yet well-developed enough for civilized
life. (ObSF: _The Island of Doctor Moreau_ by H. G. Wells.) But we don't
have as much clear evidence of that as we might, otherwise, because we're
neglecting the education system - presumably out of a perceived need for
a slave class - so that we have many people whose inability to function as
responsible citizens was not genetically fore-ordained.

John Savard
Charlie Gibbs
2021-11-04 17:26:51 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Societies seem to need a slave class. _Brave New World_ described this
in some detail. We thought that machines would take the place of this
class - but instead have turned out to be agents of the ruling class.
And here I thought that the slave class subsidizing the people of Western
industrialized nations such as the one I live in as well as your own was the
labor force of the PRC.
That's a good part of it. But let's face it, it's necessary (not to
mention fun) to have lots of slaves.
Post by Quadibloc
Yet, the time when Canada, the United States, and much of the world was
happiest was when there was no 'slave class'; in the early 'sixties, we made
our own TV sets and radios, out of vacuum tubes even, and so there were
decent jobs for everyone.
Still, despite the pandemic, we're having the Great Resignation - apparently
the world is currently in what will become known as the YouTube Bubble.
Having only recently - some two million years ago - evolved from the
chimpanzee, it might not be too outrageous to suppose that a significant
proportion of the human race is not yet well-developed enough for civilized
life. (ObSF: _The Island of Doctor Moreau_ by H. G. Wells.) But we don't
have as much clear evidence of that as we might, otherwise, because we're
neglecting the education system - presumably out of a perceived need for
a slave class - so that we have many people whose inability to function as
responsible citizens was not genetically fore-ordained.
And now, the median human intelligence (as well as sense of responsibility)
is falling below the point necessary to sustain democracy.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Life is perverse.
\ / <***@kltpzyxm.invalid> | It can be beautiful -
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | but it won't.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lily Tomlin
J. Clarke
2021-11-04 23:10:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 04 Nov 2021 17:26:51 GMT, Charlie Gibbs
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by Quadibloc
Societies seem to need a slave class. _Brave New World_ described this
in some detail. We thought that machines would take the place of this
class - but instead have turned out to be agents of the ruling class.
And here I thought that the slave class subsidizing the people of Western
industrialized nations such as the one I live in as well as your own was the
labor force of the PRC.
That's a good part of it. But let's face it, it's necessary (not to
mention fun) to have lots of slaves.
Post by Quadibloc
Yet, the time when Canada, the United States, and much of the world was
happiest was when there was no 'slave class'; in the early 'sixties, we made
our own TV sets and radios, out of vacuum tubes even, and so there were
decent jobs for everyone.
Still, despite the pandemic, we're having the Great Resignation - apparently
the world is currently in what will become known as the YouTube Bubble.
Having only recently - some two million years ago - evolved from the
chimpanzee, it might not be too outrageous to suppose that a significant
proportion of the human race is not yet well-developed enough for civilized
life. (ObSF: _The Island of Doctor Moreau_ by H. G. Wells.) But we don't
have as much clear evidence of that as we might, otherwise, because we're
neglecting the education system - presumably out of a perceived need for
a slave class - so that we have many people whose inability to function as
responsible citizens was not genetically fore-ordained.
And now, the median human intelligence (as well as sense of responsibility)
is falling below the point necessary to sustain democracy.
Or as we grow closer and closer to achieving actual democracy we see
more and more why it's a bad idea.
Charlie Gibbs
2021-11-04 23:27:21 UTC
Reply
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Post by J. Clarke
On Thu, 04 Nov 2021 17:26:51 GMT, Charlie Gibbs
Post by Charlie Gibbs
And now, the median human intelligence (as well as sense of responsibility)
is falling below the point necessary to sustain democracy.
Or as we grow closer and closer to achieving actual democracy we see
more and more why it's a bad idea.
Democracy is the worst form of government,
except for all the others.
-- Winston Churchill
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Life is perverse.
\ / <***@kltpzyxm.invalid> | It can be beautiful -
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | but it won't.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lily Tomlin
J. Clarke
2021-11-05 01:43:58 UTC
Reply
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On Thu, 04 Nov 2021 23:27:21 GMT, Charlie Gibbs
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by J. Clarke
On Thu, 04 Nov 2021 17:26:51 GMT, Charlie Gibbs
Post by Charlie Gibbs
And now, the median human intelligence (as well as sense of responsibility)
is falling below the point necessary to sustain democracy.
Or as we grow closer and closer to achieving actual democracy we see
more and more why it's a bad idea.
Democracy is the worst form of government,
except for all the others.
-- Winston Churchill
The Prime Minister of a monarchy with a parliament one of whose houses
is the House of Lords. I don't think he really had all that much
experience of democracy.
Bob Eager
2021-11-05 08:53:26 UTC
Reply
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Post by J. Clarke
On Thu, 04 Nov 2021 23:27:21 GMT, Charlie Gibbs
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by J. Clarke
On Thu, 04 Nov 2021 17:26:51 GMT, Charlie Gibbs
Post by Charlie Gibbs
And now, the median human intelligence (as well as sense of
responsibility)
is falling below the point necessary to sustain democracy.
Or as we grow closer and closer to achieving actual democracy we see
more and more why it's a bad idea.
Democracy is the worst form of government,
except for all the others.
-- Winston Churchill
The Prime Minister of a monarchy with a parliament one of whose houses
is the House of Lords. I don't think he really had all that much
experience of democracy.
A constitutional monarchy. There is a difference.
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
J. Clarke
2021-11-05 17:30:12 UTC
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Post by Bob Eager
Post by J. Clarke
On Thu, 04 Nov 2021 23:27:21 GMT, Charlie Gibbs
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by J. Clarke
On Thu, 04 Nov 2021 17:26:51 GMT, Charlie Gibbs
Post by Charlie Gibbs
And now, the median human intelligence (as well as sense of responsibility)
is falling below the point necessary to sustain democracy.
Or as we grow closer and closer to achieving actual democracy we see
more and more why it's a bad idea.
Democracy is the worst form of government,
except for all the others.
-- Winston Churchill
The Prime Minister of a monarchy with a parliament one of whose houses
is the House of Lords. I don't think he really had all that much
experience of democracy.
A constitutional monarchy. There is a difference.
Not one that makes it a democracy.
John Levine
2021-11-05 18:23:41 UTC
Reply
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Post by J. Clarke
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Democracy is the worst form of government,
except for all the others.
-- Winston Churchill
The Prime Minister of a monarchy with a parliament one of whose houses
is the House of Lords. I don't think he really had all that much
experience of democracy.
His mother was American.
--
Regards,
John Levine, ***@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
2021-11-05 07:26:39 UTC
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On Thu, 04 Nov 2021 19:10:08 -0400
Post by J. Clarke
Or as we grow closer and closer to achieving actual democracy we see
more and more why it's a bad idea.
Democracy is great when an honestly informed and engaged population
chooses among a set of honest and dedicated politicians.

It's a pity that there seems to be no cause so noble and correct
that it lacks supporters willing to lie to further it and in so doing
discredit it. It is also a pity that most people are more interested in
sports, telly, booze, drugs, feuds and sex than how their country is run. It
is also a pity that many politicians seems to be more interested in feeding
at the public trough than serving the state. Just three things to fix to
get a perfect system.

The optimal form of government is probably a benevolent
dictatorship, provided there is an endless supply of competent benevolent
dictators and the means to ensure that only such get to rule - I don't see
this as possible either.

What most people want from their government is that it lets them
get on with their lives with a minimum of visible interference - by this
criteria any government that indulges in war is an abject failure.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Charlie Gibbs
2021-11-05 17:40:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
The optimal form of government is probably a benevolent
dictatorship, provided there is an endless supply of competent
benevolent dictators and the means to ensure that only such
get to rule - I don't see this as possible either.
Plus you have to ensure that the existing benevolent dictator
remains benevolent - or have a reliable mechanism for removing
him when the inevitable happens.
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
What most people want from their government is that it lets them
get on with their lives with a minimum of visible interference - by this
criteria any government that indulges in war is an abject failure.
At least war on their own soil. Foreign wars are a great source
of entertainment, if nothing else.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Life is perverse.
\ / <***@kltpzyxm.invalid> | It can be beautiful -
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | but it won't.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lily Tomlin
Peter Flass
2021-11-05 22:55:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 17:17:21 -0400
One of the major benefits of a dictator is that one person with a
rifle and a bit of luck can remove the dictator, unlike Congress which
is like a hydra--cut off one head and it sprouts two more.
Hmm maybe there's an approach. So we have a dictator with absolute
power except that they are not permitted any form of personal protection,
replacements selected by reality TV as needed.
No thanks! We had one would-be dictator selected by reality TV, and look
how that turned out.
--
Pete
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
2021-11-06 15:14:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 6 Nov 2021 11:31:39 +0000
I have no doubt that those who are in line for the monarchy up to
the nth degree know about it
The prisoners of Windsor are not a dictatorship.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
gareth evans
2021-11-06 16:45:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Sat, 6 Nov 2021 11:31:39 +0000
I have no doubt that those who are in line for the monarchy up to
the nth degree know about it
The prisoners of Windsor are not a dictatorship.
They are not prisoners, but are free to leave, as did
Ginge And Whinge so recently.
Jorgen Grahn
2021-11-05 22:43:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 2021-11-04, Quadibloc wrote:
...
Post by Quadibloc
Having only recently - some two million years ago - evolved from the
chimpanzee, it might not be too outrageous to suppose that a significant
proportion of the human race is not yet well-developed enough for civilized
life.
I think few can cope well with /today's/ civilized life with
smartphones, social media, instant gratification and impending doom --
your YouTube Bubble.

Most could cope with civilized life 30 years ago, and almost everyone
can cope with sustenance farming in a village (if that's all they
know).

IMO, the problem is not the people. A lot of basically decent people
are acting crazy right now.

/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
The Natural Philosopher
2021-11-04 11:05:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
For sure, both of those speak to deep rooted truths about human
nature - sad really. Just wait till we get sentient robots and reinvent
slavery.
We never lost slavery. We just use poverty and debt, not chains.
--
Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.
Charlie Gibbs
2021-11-04 17:19:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
For sure, both of those speak to deep rooted truths about human
nature - sad really. Just wait till we get sentient robots and
reinvent slavery.
We never lost slavery. We just use poverty and debt, not chains.
Yes, as through this world I've wandered
I've seen lots of funny men.
Some will rob you with a six-gun,
And some with a fountain pen.

And as through your live you travel,
Yes, as through your life you roam,
You won't never see an outlaw
Drive a family from their home.

-- Woody Guthrie: Pretty Boy Floyd
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Life is perverse.
\ / <***@kltpzyxm.invalid> | It can be beautiful -
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | but it won't.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lily Tomlin
gareth evans
2021-11-04 20:13:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
For sure, both of those speak to deep rooted truths about human
nature - sad really. Just wait till we get sentient robots and reinvent
slavery.
We never lost slavery. We just use poverty and debt, not chains.
It is strange that the current wokery about removing the symbolism
of slavery, pulling down statues or renaming educational establishments,
continues to support the descendant spawn of the Norman invaders who
subjugated our ancestors into the slavery of serfdom
Peter Flass
2021-11-04 23:11:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by gareth evans
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
For sure, both of those speak to deep rooted truths about human
nature - sad really. Just wait till we get sentient robots and reinvent
slavery.
We never lost slavery. We just use poverty and debt, not chains.
It is strange that the current wokery about removing the symbolism
of slavery, pulling down statues or renaming educational establishments,
continues to support the descendant spawn of the Norman invaders who
subjugated our ancestors into the slavery of serfdom
Your ancestors were probably already serfs. The Norman conquest swapped one
ruling class for another.
--
Pete
gareth evans
2021-11-05 11:40:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Flass
Post by gareth evans
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
For sure, both of those speak to deep rooted truths about human
nature - sad really. Just wait till we get sentient robots and reinvent
slavery.
We never lost slavery. We just use poverty and debt, not chains.
It is strange that the current wokery about removing the symbolism
of slavery, pulling down statues or renaming educational establishments,
continues to support the descendant spawn of the Norman invaders who
subjugated our ancestors into the slavery of serfdom
Your ancestors were probably already serfs. The Norman conquest swapped one
ruling class for another.
Whether or not that is true, it remains that the current Great Parasite
Of Windsor is founded upon slavery.
The Natural Philosopher
2021-11-05 14:09:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by gareth evans
Post by Peter Flass
Post by gareth evans
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
For sure, both of those speak to deep rooted truths about human
nature - sad really. Just wait till we get sentient robots and reinvent
slavery.
We never lost slavery. We just use poverty and  debt, not chains.
It is strange that the current wokery about removing the symbolism
of slavery, pulling down statues or renaming educational establishments,
continues to support the descendant spawn of the Norman invaders who
subjugated our ancestors into the slavery of serfdom
Your ancestors were probably already serfs. The Norman conquest swapped one
ruling class for another.
Whether or not that is true, it remains that the current Great Parasite
Of Windsor is founded upon slavery.
Oh please. utterly irrelevant. FAR bigger parasites around.
--
When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over
the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that
authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

Frédéric Bastiat
Charlie Gibbs
2021-11-05 17:40:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by gareth evans
Post by Peter Flass
Post by gareth evans
It is strange that the current wokery about removing the symbolism
of slavery, pulling down statues or renaming educational establishments,
continues to support the descendant spawn of the Norman invaders who
subjugated our ancestors into the slavery of serfdom
Your ancestors were probably already serfs. The Norman conquest
swapped one ruling class for another.
Whether or not that is true, it remains that the current Great Parasite
Of Windsor is founded upon slavery.
Oh please. utterly irrelevant. FAR bigger parasites around.
Indeed. And at least the royals have entertainment value.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Life is perverse.
\ / <***@kltpzyxm.invalid> | It can be beautiful -
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | but it won't.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lily Tomlin
Maus
2021-11-05 19:18:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by gareth evans
Post by Peter Flass
Post by gareth evans
It is strange that the current wokery about removing the symbolism
of slavery, pulling down statues or renaming educational establishments,
continues to support the descendant spawn of the Norman invaders who
subjugated our ancestors into the slavery of serfdom
Your ancestors were probably already serfs. The Norman conquest
swapped one ruling class for another.
Whether or not that is true, it remains that the current Great Parasite
Of Windsor is founded upon slavery.
Oh please. utterly irrelevant. FAR bigger parasites around.
Indeed. And at least the royals have entertainment value.
I find nothing amusing about prince andrew. He reminds me of the stories
I herd the old people tell of Queen Victoria's sons in Ireland.
--
***@mail.com
That's not a mousehole!
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
2021-11-05 20:04:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 5 Nov 2021 19:18:48 GMT
Post by Maus
I find nothing amusing about prince andrew. He reminds me of the stories
I herd the old people tell of Queen Victoria's sons in Ireland.
Agreed, I recall hearing him called "randy Andy" when I was quite
young so it seems he got into the habit quite early on.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Charlie Gibbs
2021-11-05 23:52:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On 5 Nov 2021 19:18:48 GMT
Post by Maus
I find nothing amusing about prince andrew. He reminds me of the stories
I herd the old people tell of Queen Victoria's sons in Ireland.
Agreed, I recall hearing him called "randy Andy" when I was quite
young so it seems he got into the habit quite early on.
So did I. OK, think of it as entertaining in a tabloid sense.
God knows they appear often enough in the local tabloids.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Life is perverse.
\ / <***@kltpzyxm.invalid> | It can be beautiful -
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | but it won't.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lily Tomlin
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
2021-11-06 05:13:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 23:52:00 GMT
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On 5 Nov 2021 19:18:48 GMT
Post by Maus
I find nothing amusing about prince andrew. He reminds me of the
stories I herd the old people tell of Queen Victoria's sons in Ireland.
Agreed, I recall hearing him called "randy Andy" when I was
quite young so it seems he got into the habit quite early on.
So did I. OK, think of it as entertaining in a tabloid sense.
God knows they appear often enough in the local tabloids.
To be fair I'm not at all surprised that members of that family go
off the rails like that. Where Gareth thinks parasites of Windsor I tend to
think prisoners of Windsor - the people involved are trapped in a system
that allows almost no freedom, it's no great surprise that they take
whatever freedoms they can find - it's a pity that some of them choose
reprehensible freedoms.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Maus
2021-11-05 15:16:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by gareth evans
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
For sure, both of those speak to deep rooted truths about human
nature - sad really. Just wait till we get sentient robots and reinvent
slavery.
We never lost slavery. We just use poverty and debt, not chains.
It is strange that the current wokery about removing the symbolism
of slavery, pulling down statues or renaming educational establishments,
continues to support the descendant spawn of the Norman invaders who
subjugated our ancestors into the slavery of serfdom
Wokery, I think, is somewhat correct. Onne should remember that the
Devon sailors who singed the Spanish King's beard, started off as slave
traders. The Saxons had slaves as well.
--
***@mail.com
That's not a mousehole!
Kurt Weiske
2021-11-04 14:17:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
To: Charlie Gibbs
-=> Charlie Gibbs wrote to
comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linix,alt.folklore.computers <=-

CG> My wife and I just finished re-reading both _Animal Farm_ and
CG> _Brave New World_. Both are frighteningly close to what we're
CG> seeing today, although _Brave New World's_ "soma" has been
CG> replaced by social media.

Imagine if Facebook chose "Soma" as their new name... :)

kurt weiske | kweiske at realitycheckbbs dot org
| https://realitycheckbbs.org



... Discover your formulas and abandon them
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
--- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
* realitycheckBBS - Aptos, CA - telnet://realitycheckbbs.org
Scott Lurndal
2021-11-04 15:47:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kurt Weiske
To: Charlie Gibbs
-=> Charlie Gibbs wrote to
comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linix,alt.folklore.computers <=-
CG> My wife and I just finished re-reading both _Animal Farm_ and
CG> _Brave New World_. Both are frighteningly close to what we're
CG> seeing today, although _Brave New World's_ "soma" has been
CG> replaced by social media.
Imagine if Facebook chose "Soma" as their new name... :)
They may already have a SOMA[*] office. Many tech companies
have offices there.


[*] south of market area
Bob Eager
2021-11-04 20:34:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kurt Weiske
To: Charlie Gibbs
-=> Charlie Gibbs wrote to
comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linix,alt.folklore.computers <=-
CG> My wife and I just finished re-reading both _Animal Farm_ and CG>
_Brave New World_. Both are frighteningly close to what we're CG>
seeing today, although _Brave New World's_ "soma" has been CG> replaced
by social media.
Imagine if Facebook chose "Soma" as their new name... :)
They may already have a SOMA[*] office. Many tech companies have
offices there.
[*] south of market area
I was thinking of SOcial MediA.
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Kurt Weiske
2021-11-05 15:08:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
To: scott
-=> scott wrote to alt.folklore.computers <=-

sc> They may already have a SOMA[*] office. Many tech companies
sc> have offices there.

I used to work in SOMA for many years, starting in the Multimedia Gulch
days - I don't think they have an office there, but most companies prefer to
have a SF mailing address, somewhere.

They were working on a proper campus on Marsh Road in Menlo Park or Palo
Alto, with housing and commercial spaces. Sounds great, until you're laid
off and need to move.

kurt weiske | kweiske at realitycheckbbs dot org
| http://realitycheckbbs.org
| 1:218/***@fidonet



... What do you think of the guests?
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
--- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
* realitycheckBBS - Aptos, CA - telnet://realitycheckbbs.org
Scott Lurndal
2021-11-07 15:43:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kurt Weiske
To: scott
-=> scott wrote to alt.folklore.computers <=-
sc> They may already have a SOMA[*] office. Many tech companies
sc> have offices there.
I used to work in SOMA for many years, starting in the Multimedia Gulch
days - I don't think they have an office there, but most companies prefer to
have a SF mailing address, somewhere.
They were working on a proper campus on Marsh Road in Menlo Park or Palo
Alto, with housing and commercial spaces. Sounds great, until you're laid
off and need to move.
East Palo Alto. Used to be known as Sun Quentin before Facebook bought it.
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
2021-11-04 16:17:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 4 Nov 2021 07:17:00 -0700
Post by Kurt Weiske
To: Charlie Gibbs
-=> Charlie Gibbs wrote to
comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linix,alt.folklore.computers <=-
CG> My wife and I just finished re-reading both _Animal Farm_ and
CG> _Brave New World_. Both are frighteningly close to what we're
CG> seeing today, although _Brave New World's_ "soma" has been
CG> replaced by social media.
Imagine if Facebook chose "Soma" as their new name... :)
https://soylent.com/ - No this is not a joke
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Mike Spencer
2021-11-04 22:21:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Thu, 4 Nov 2021 07:17:00 -0700
Post by Kurt Weiske
Imagine if Facebook chose "Soma" as their new name... :)
https://soylent.com/ - No this is not a joke
But is it Green?

Clinging doggedly to the notion of literary allusion, would it sell
better if they called it Heracliophorbia? Or Filboid Studge?
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Leonard Blaisdell
2021-11-05 05:46:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mike Spencer
Clinging doggedly to the notion of literary allusion, would it sell
better if they called it Heracliophorbia? Or Filboid Studge?
I've monitored this group for 25 years but don't think I've ever posted.
I've always run a Mac, and there is little to no Mac traffic here.
Without googling, I do know what Filboid Studge is, one of many great
Saki stories.

<https://postimg.cc/GHkV2D84>

Without googling, I have no idea what heracliophorbia is.
Maus
2021-11-05 15:27:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mike Spencer
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Thu, 4 Nov 2021 07:17:00 -0700
Post by Kurt Weiske
Imagine if Facebook chose "Soma" as their new name... :)
https://soylent.com/ - No this is not a joke
But is it Green?
Clinging doggedly to the notion of literary allusion, would it sell
better if they called it Heracliophorbia? Or Filboid Studge?
Or Quorn?
--
***@mail.com
That's not a mousehole!
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
2021-11-05 07:29:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 4 Nov 2021 16:11:55 -0700
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
https://soylent.com/ - No this is not a joke
Either they don’t watch movies, or they’re counting on others not
watching.
They are fully aware that they got the word from "Make Room, Make
Room" just as the film did.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
711 Spooky Mart
2021-11-04 20:12:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kurt Weiske
To: Charlie Gibbs
-=> Charlie Gibbs wrote to
comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linix,alt.folklore.computers <=-
CG> My wife and I just finished re-reading both _Animal Farm_ and
CG> _Brave New World_. Both are frighteningly close to what we're
CG> seeing today, although _Brave New World's_ "soma" has been
CG> replaced by social media.
Big Brother says, "Drink your fluoride. Take your shots. Don't ask
questions. There will never be a lethal round of those mandatory
boosters shots. We promise. We're here to save you by culling--er, um,
ahem--reducing the population."
--
──┏━━━━┓──┏━━┓───┏━━┓── ┌────────────────────────┐ ┌────────┐
──┗━━┓─┃──┗┓─┃───┗┓─┃── │ Spooky Mart [chan] 711 │ │ always │
─────┃─┃──┏┛─┗┓──┏┛─┗┓─ │ https://bitmessage.org │ │ open │
─────┗━┛──┗━━━┛──┗━━━┛─ └────────────────────────┘ └────────┘
1p166
2021-11-04 01:02:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 3 Nov 2021 00:27:54 -0400
Post by 1p166
The Big Money people had this figured out LONG
ago - centuries ago actually. Even Machivelli
understood the utility of cultivating those
fake "sides".
Sadly this and all above it is all too true - the lessons of
Machiavelli and Sun Tzu are well understood by the major players and have
been polished for centuries into a smooth art. In a similar vein I fairly
recently re-read Orwell's 1984 and found it shockingly simplistic and naive,
that was a sobering discovery.
It used to be the politicians/priesthood, but then
the ADVERTISERS came - and post-WW2 undertook what
you might call the "science of salesmanship", lots
of psych experiments designed to yield objective
data. What motivates people, in what ways, how much,
how long ... they made manipulation a science. And
then the politicians/priesthood (esp evangelicals)
borrowed all that data.

I'll rec a somewhat old book to you - it can still
be had. It was writ in the late 50s by a polymath
named Jaques Ellul and called "The Technological
Society". It was not about computers - it was about
the growth of science-informed psychological
manipulation by State and private entities. The
original was in French, but the English translation
is perfectly readable, albeit with some rather odd
wording at times.

Hmm ... I wonder what Obama's "Brain Initiative" was
REALLY supposed to find out :-)
The indoctrination for it starts in the earliest school with "What's
your favourite colour" and gets strengthened outside the classroom with
"Who do you support".
I remain thankful that Hermann Göring's astute observation on the
ease of raising war fever is not widely utilised today - I remain slightly
suspicious about the Falkland's War being a field test of the principle, it
was certainly a good demonstration if not.
Goebbels ... Goring's interests rarely strayed from killing
people .......

Goebbels was a very GOOD propagandist ... but fortunately
his instincts and insights were mostly limited to German
culture. His stuff never translated very well.

But if Goebbels had the wealth of scientific data the
Mad Men compiled ...

Anyway, the MS/Apple "duality" is a sort of deliberate
scam. You pick a side and are encouraged to feel all
superior about it, hurl distain at "those OTHERS".
Meanwhile the big investors buy stock in BOTH companies
and encourage the 'competition' illusion.

Besides we Linux people know WE are the best :-)
Dave Garland
2021-11-04 05:01:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
  Goebbels ... Goring's interests rarely strayed from killing
  people .......
Goebbels was a good propagandist. Goering (former fighter ace) was
Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.
Hermann Goring
The Natural Philosopher
2021-11-04 11:09:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
   Goebbels ... Goring's interests rarely strayed from killing
   people .......
Goebbels was a good propagandist. Goering (former fighter ace) was more
Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is
the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a
simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or
a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of
the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are
being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and
exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.
Hermann Goring
Goering or Göring - not Goring. That's what bulls do.
--
In todays liberal progressive conflict-free education system, everyone
gets full Marx.
Bob Eager
2021-11-04 13:49:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
   Goebbels ... Goring's interests rarely strayed from killing
   people .......
Goebbels was a good propagandist. Goering (former fighter ace) was more
Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is
the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a
simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or
a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of
the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are
being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and
exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.
Hermann Goring
Goering or Göring - not Goring. That's what bulls do.
Or a place in Sussex.
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Quadibloc
2021-11-04 17:11:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Garland
Goebbels was a good propagandist. Goering (former fighter ace) was
Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is the leaders
of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to
drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship,
or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people
can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you
have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists
for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same
in every country.
Perceptive, perhaps. But self-exculpatory, certainly.

The Nazis were _lying_ about the Jews, about Czechoslovakia, about Poland,
as they stirred up hostility in Germany to them.

The French and British governments weren't lying about Germany having
invaded Poland, a nation with large coal reserves which, if captured by
Germany, would give it a strategic advantage.

Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor.

So, while the pattern Goering identified was hardly unique to the Nazi regime,
it's still true that there's a difference between aggressive countries and peaceful
ones. Democracies may stir the people up against threats that are not immediate,
but they're rather less likely to engage in blatantly aggressive wars.

John Savard
Quadibloc
2021-11-04 17:16:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor.
And neither did Franklin Delano Roosevelt, which was my point.

John Savard
Maus
2021-11-04 17:31:46 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dave Garland
Goebbels was a good propagandist. Goering (former fighter ace) was
Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is the leaders
of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to
drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship,
or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people
can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you
have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists
for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same
in every country.
Perceptive, perhaps. But self-exculpatory, certainly.
The Nazis were _lying_ about the Jews, about Czechoslovakia, about Poland,
as they stirred up hostility in Germany to them.
The Polish corridor was a problem that the natzis used as an excuse to
attack poland, but it was a real problem.

Large parts of Czechslovakian were German speaking , The Austria-Hungarian Empire,
which cz* had been created fro, was multiethnic. The German speakers
were driven out after the war, and some of them, that moved to the Ruhr
area, did very well since.
Post by Quadibloc
The French and British governments weren't lying about Germany having
invaded Poland, a nation with large coal reserves which, if captured by
Germany, would give it a strategic advantage.
Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor.
What did he think would happen after he banned scrap iron exports to
Japan?.. The US navy should have been placed at high allert, but was
not.

(The irony was that the Japanese used some of their steel to build
superbattleships which were by then outdated)
Post by Quadibloc
So, while the pattern Goering identified was hardly unique to the Nazi regime,
it's still true that there's a difference between aggressive countries and peaceful
ones. Democracies may stir the people up against threats that are not immediate,
but they're rather less likely to engage in blatantly aggressive wars.
John Savard
War is an evil, cruel thing. Remember the Delphic prophesy

"If you go to war, a great empire will be destroyed"
--
***@mail.com
That's not a mousehole!
D.J.
2021-11-04 18:04:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Maus
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dave Garland
Goebbels was a good propagandist. Goering (former fighter ace) was
Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is the leaders
of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to
drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship,
or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people
can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you
have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists
for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same
in every country.
Perceptive, perhaps. But self-exculpatory, certainly.
The Nazis were _lying_ about the Jews, about Czechoslovakia, about Poland,
as they stirred up hostility in Germany to them.
The Polish corridor was a problem that the natzis used as an excuse to
attack poland, but it was a real problem.
Large parts of Czechslovakian were German speaking , The Austria-Hungarian Empire,
which cz* had been created fro, was multiethnic. The German speakers
were driven out after the war, and some of them, that moved to the Ruhr
area, did very well since.
Post by Quadibloc
The French and British governments weren't lying about Germany having
invaded Poland, a nation with large coal reserves which, if captured by
Germany, would give it a strategic advantage.
Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor.
What did he think would happen after he banned scrap iron exports to
Japan?.. The US navy should have been placed at high allert, but was
not.
(The irony was that the Japanese used some of their steel to build
superbattleships which were by then outdated)
[snip]

You might look up a book, I have it but don't remember the exact
title, which is basically titled 'the 31 days of January, 1941'.

Each chapter is a day in that month. It shows the US totally
unprepared, and the delusional and/or idiotic lack of preparedness on
the US West coast, and the continued lack of preparedness throughout
WW2.

The general out there, who foamed at the mouth until citizens of
Japanese ancestry were forcibly moved to concentration camps, was not
only a liar, but incompetent. Also many alerts for Japanese aircraft
that weren't there. And when Japanese submarines showed up, with
aircraft, no one seemed to notice until they left.
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
2021-11-05 03:47:19 UTC
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Post by Maus
What did he think would happen after he banned scrap iron exports to
Japan?.. The US navy should have been placed at high allert, but was
not.
Story that (asst. SECTREAS) Harry Dexter White was also operating on
behalf of Stalin ... Stalin had sent White draft of ten demands to
include in US ultimatum hoping to provoke Japan into opening a war with
US ... Stalin was already dealing with 3/4ths of German military in the
west and was worried that Japan would open a second front in the
east. Hull Note
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull_note
Harry Dexter White & Venona intercepts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Dexter_White#Venona_project
More Venona
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venona_project
https://www.nsa.gov/news-features/declassified-documents/venona/

Benn Stein in "The Battle of Bretton Woods" spends pages 55-58
discussing "Operation Snow".
https://www.amazon.com/Battle-Bretton-Woods-Relations-University-ebook/dp/B00B5ZQ72Y/
pg56/loc1065-66:

The Soviets had, according to Karpov, used White to provoke Japan to
attack the United States. The scheme even had a name: "Operation Snow,"
snow referring to White.

... snip ...

also: Another example of White acting as an agent of influence for the
Soviet Union was his obstruction of an authorized $200 million loan to
Nationalist China in 1943, which he had been officially instructed to
execute. ... contributing to Nationalist loosing China.

The Japanese Surrender in 1945 is Still Poorly Understood
https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/181372
General Dwight Eisenhower, in his memoirs, recalled a visit from
Secretary of War Henry Stimson in late July 1945: "I voiced to him my
grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already
defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and
secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world
opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no
longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief
that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with
a minimum loss of 'face.'" Eisenhower reiterated the point years later
in a Newsweek interview in 1963, saying that "the Japanese were ready to
surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."

... snip ...

Mythmaking and the Atomic Destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki
https://www.counterpunch.org/2021/08/06/mythmaking-and-the-atomic-destruction-of-hiroshima-and-nagasaki/
Reality: Hiroshima and Nagasaki were destroyed to prevent the Soviets
from making a contribution to the victory against Japan, which would
have forced Washington to allow Moscow to participate in the postwar
occupation and reconstruction of the country. It was also the intention
to intimidate the Soviet leadership and thus to wrest concessions from
it with respect to the postwar arrangements in Germany and Eastern
Europe. Finally, it was not the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki,
but the Soviet entry into the war against Japan, which caused Tokyo to
surrender.

... snip ...

Apparently Roosevelt didn't believe that US could defeat Japan without
Soviets and had agreement with Stalin where Soviet would come in against
Japan after the Germans had been defeated. Other reference "The Cover-Up
at Omaha Beach"
https://www.amazon.com/Cover-Up-Omaha-Beach-Rangers-Battery-ebook/dp/B00J75ISNU/

Soviets sent 1.5M troops into Manchuria and quickly defeated million
Japanese troops and were within three days of invading Japanese homeland
when the bombs were dropped.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Manchuria By comparison
US had 600k toops and battleships for Okinawa against 76k Japanese (and
US was months away from mounting a homeland invasion)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okinawa

The War Was Won Before Hiroshima--And the Generals Who Dropped the Bomb
Knew It. Seventy years after the bombing, will Americans face the brutal
truth?
https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-the-us-really-bombed-hiroshima/
--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
Maus
2021-11-05 15:07:40 UTC
Reply
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Post by Anne & Lynn Wheeler
Post by Maus
What did he think would happen after he banned scrap iron exports to
Japan?.. The US navy should have been placed at high allert, but was
not.
Story that (asst. SECTREAS) Harry Dexter White was also operating on
behalf of Stalin ... Stalin had sent White draft of ten demands to
include in US ultimatum hoping to provoke Japan into opening a war with
US ... Stalin was already dealing with 3/4ths of German military in the
west and was worried that Japan would open a second front in the
east. Hull Note
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull_note
Harry Dexter White & Venona intercepts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Dexter_White#Venona_project
More Venona
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venona_project
https://www.nsa.gov/news-features/declassified-documents/venona/
Benn Stein in "The Battle of Bretton Woods" spends pages 55-58
discussing "Operation Snow".
https://www.amazon.com/Battle-Bretton-Woods-Relations-University-ebook/dp/B00B5ZQ72Y/
The Soviets had, according to Karpov, used White to provoke Japan to
attack the United States. The scheme even had a name: "Operation Snow,"
snow referring to White.
... snip ...
also: Another example of White acting as an agent of influence for the
Soviet Union was his obstruction of an authorized $200 million loan to
Nationalist China in 1943, which he had been officially instructed to
execute. ... contributing to Nationalist loosing China.
Good to hear from ye again.! (I wonder how /BAH is?.)

Decisive point in WWII was first week of December, when germans had to
retreat from Moscow. All after that was just delay from the inevitable.
Hitler tried to emulate Frederic Gross's successful seven years awar.
Frederic was a competant man, Hitler was an insane bigot.
--
***@mail.com
That's not a mousehole!
D.J.
2021-11-05 19:42:04 UTC
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Post by Anne & Lynn Wheeler
Post by Maus
What did he think would happen after he banned scrap iron exports to
Japan?.. The US navy should have been placed at high allert, but was
not.
Story that (asst. SECTREAS) Harry Dexter White was also operating on
behalf of Stalin ... Stalin had sent White draft of ten demands to
include in US ultimatum hoping to provoke Japan into opening a war with
US ... Stalin was already dealing with 3/4ths of German military in the
west and was worried that Japan would open a second front in the
east.
From _Midway_, it appears the Japanese were just waiting for a German
victory in the Caucus or the Middle East to link up with them and open a
second front.
Japan attacked India, and Germany attack Egypt. From what I have read,
that is the direction they were going to do the link up.
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
2021-11-05 03:53:39 UTC
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Post by Maus
(The irony was that the Japanese used some of their steel to build
superbattleships which were by then outdated)
The Age of Battleships Is Dead and Long Gone. Battleships were mighty in
their day. But the advent of airplanes and missiles meant that such
large, lumbering warships made no sense anymore.
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/age-battleships-dead-and-long-gone-189247

The Ultimate Battleship Battle: Japan's Yamato vs. America's Iowa. It
would have been the ultimate battle on the high seas: Yamato
vs. Iowa. Who would have won?
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-ultimate-battleship-battle-japans-yamato-vs-americas-13737
recommends Parshall's Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway
https://www.amazon.com/Shattered-Sword-Untold-Battle-Japanese-ebook/dp/B005NIQ8SM/
pg5/loc76-78:

The battleships wouldn’t be sailing this morning. No surprise there,
joked Akagi’s crewmen–they hadn’t done anything during the entire
war. For them the battleships were irrelevant, nothing more than a
symbol of a bygone era. Worse yet, in the workaholic culture of the
Imperial Navy, which, popular lore had it, operated eight days a week,
the battleships were seen as slackers.

... snip ...

... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the
bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to
carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of
large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers.
--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
J. Clarke
2021-11-05 17:33:46 UTC
Reply
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On Thu, 04 Nov 2021 17:53:39 -1000, Anne & Lynn Wheeler
Post by Anne & Lynn Wheeler
Post by Maus
(The irony was that the Japanese used some of their steel to build
superbattleships which were by then outdated)
The Age of Battleships Is Dead and Long Gone. Battleships were mighty in
their day. But the advent of airplanes and missiles meant that such
large, lumbering warships made no sense anymore.
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/age-battleships-dead-and-long-gone-189247
The Ultimate Battleship Battle: Japan's Yamato vs. America's Iowa. It
would have been the ultimate battle on the high seas: Yamato
vs. Iowa. Who would have won?
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-ultimate-battleship-battle-japans-yamato-vs-americas-13737
recommends Parshall's Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway
https://www.amazon.com/Shattered-Sword-Untold-Battle-Japanese-ebook/dp/B005NIQ8SM/
The battleships wouldn’t be sailing this morning. No surprise there,
joked Akagi’s crewmen–they hadn’t done anything during the entire
war. For them the battleships were irrelevant, nothing more than a
symbol of a bygone era. Worse yet, in the workaholic culture of the
Imperial Navy, which, popular lore had it, operated eight days a week,
the battleships were seen as slackers.
... snip ...
... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the
bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to
carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of
large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers.
And the battleships, and the cruiser, and the destroyers, and the LSTs
and the LSMs and the Liberty ships and the Victory ships and just
about everything else.
J. Clarke
2021-11-05 21:39:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anne & Lynn Wheeler
... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the
bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to
carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of
large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers.
I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the
Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be
secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which
never happened.
The problem was that Nagumo knew there were three carriers out there
somewhere. Were they hunting him?
Peter Flass
2021-11-05 22:55:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Anne & Lynn Wheeler
... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the
bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to
carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of
large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers.
I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the
Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be
secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which
never happened.
The problem was that Nagumo knew there were three carriers out there
somewhere. Were they hunting him?
The pilots wanted the second strike, but Nagumo overruled them. I guess 80
years is long enough that I can talk about this dispassionately. I probably
won’t be here to talk about 9/11 without anger.
--
Pete
J. Clarke
2021-11-05 23:33:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Anne & Lynn Wheeler
... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the
bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to
carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of
large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers.
I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the
Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be
secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which
never happened.
The problem was that Nagumo knew there were three carriers out there
somewhere. Were they hunting him?
The pilots wanted the second strike, but Nagumo overruled them. I guess 80
years is long enough that I can talk about this dispassionately. I probably
won’t be here to talk about 9/11 without anger.
Third strike. There were two strikes. The third was called off due
to shortage of fuel, concern about the increasing effectiveness of the
defenses, being within range of land-based air, and the question of
where the carriers were.
D.J.
2021-11-06 17:17:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 19:33:20 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Anne & Lynn Wheeler
... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the
bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to
carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of
large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers.
I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the
Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be
secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which
never happened.
The problem was that Nagumo knew there were three carriers out there
somewhere. Were they hunting him?
The pilots wanted the second strike, but Nagumo overruled them. I guess 80
years is long enough that I can talk about this dispassionately. I probably
won’t be here to talk about 9/11 without anger.
Third strike. There were two strikes. The third was called off due
to shortage of fuel, concern about the increasing effectiveness of the
defenses, being within range of land-based air, and the question of
where the carriers were.
He also said that they had lost the element of surprise. 29 IJN
aircraft were shot down. A third strike would have resulted in more.
J. Clarke
2021-11-06 18:45:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by D.J.
On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 19:33:20 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Anne & Lynn Wheeler
... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the
bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to
carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of
large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers.
I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the
Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be
secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which
never happened.
The problem was that Nagumo knew there were three carriers out there
somewhere. Were they hunting him?
The pilots wanted the second strike, but Nagumo overruled them. I guess 80
years is long enough that I can talk about this dispassionately. I probably
won’t be here to talk about 9/11 without anger.
Third strike. There were two strikes. The third was called off due
to shortage of fuel, concern about the increasing effectiveness of the
defenses, being within range of land-based air, and the question of
where the carriers were.
He also said that they had lost the element of surprise. 29 IJN
aircraft were shot down. A third strike would have resulted in more.
And there were unknowns. The Japanese did not know what an utter
piece of crap the Brewster Buffalo was or how poorly B-17s performed
when attacking warships to give two examples.
D.J.
2021-11-06 20:28:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 06 Nov 2021 14:45:45 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
Post by D.J.
On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 19:33:20 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Anne & Lynn Wheeler
... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the
bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to
carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of
large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers.
I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the
Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be
secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which
never happened.
The problem was that Nagumo knew there were three carriers out there
somewhere. Were they hunting him?
The pilots wanted the second strike, but Nagumo overruled them. I guess 80
years is long enough that I can talk about this dispassionately. I probably
won’t be here to talk about 9/11 without anger.
Third strike. There were two strikes. The third was called off due
to shortage of fuel, concern about the increasing effectiveness of the
defenses, being within range of land-based air, and the question of
where the carriers were.
He also said that they had lost the element of surprise. 29 IJN
aircraft were shot down. A third strike would have resulted in more.
And there were unknowns. The Japanese did not know what an utter
piece of crap the Brewster Buffalo was or how poorly B-17s performed
when attacking warships to give two examples.
They learned at Midway. All of the Marine fighter pilots who flew
thgat crappy aircraft were shot down by Zeros.

Admiral Morison, in his set 'The Official Hostory of the US Navy in
WW2', stated the Brewster Buffalo should never have been flown in
combat air against Zeros.
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
2021-11-06 18:26:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Flass
The pilots wanted the second strike, but Nagumo overruled them. I
guess 80 years is long enough that I can talk about this
dispassionately. I probably won’t be here to talk about 9/11 without
anger.
After 9/11, the U.S. Got Almost Everything Wrong. A mission to rid the
world of "terror" and "evil" led America in tragic directions.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/after-911-everything-wrong-war-terror/620008/
9/11 Had Nothing to Do with Afghanistan
https://www.counterpunch.org/2021/08/06/9-11-had-nothing-to-do-with-afghanistan/
The Afghanistan Papers: A Secret History of the War
https://www.amazon.com/Afghanistan-Papers-Secret-History-War-ebook/dp/B08VJLJ56L/
Democratic senators increase pressure to declassify 9/11 documents
related to Saudi role in attacks
https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/566547-democratic-senators-increase-pressure-to-declassify-9-11-documents
Democratic senators and families of victims of the 9/11 attacks called
on Thursday for the Biden administration to declassify and make
available key documents related to Saudi Arabia's role in the terrorist
attacks, ahead of the 20th anniversary commemorating the tragedy.

... snip ...

... from truth is stranger than fiction and law of unintended
consequences that come back to bite you, much of the radical Islam &
ISIS can be considered our own fault, former CIA director and VP Bush in
the 80s
https://www.amazon.com/Family-Secrets-Americas-Invisible-Government-ebook/dp/B003NSBMNA/
pg292/loc6057-59:
There was also a calculated decision to use the Saudis as surrogates in
the cold war. The United States actually encouraged Saudi efforts to
spread the extremist Wahhabi form of Islam as a way of stirring up large
Muslim communities in Soviet-controlled countries. (It didn't hurt that
Muslim Soviet Asia contained what were believed to be the world's
largest undeveloped reserves of oil.)

... snip ...

Saudi radical extremist Islam/Wahhabi loosened on the world ... bin
Laden & 15of16 9/11 were Saudis (some claims that 95% of extreme Islam
world terrorism is Wahhabi related)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism

Mattis somewhat more PC (political correct)
https://www.amazon.com/Call-Sign-Chaos-Learning-Lead-ebook/dp/B07SBRFVNH/
pg21/loc349-51:
Ayatollah Khomeini's revolutionary regime took hold in Iran by ousting
the Shah and swearing hostility against the United States. That same
year, the Soviet Union was pouring troops into Afghanistan to prop up a
pro-Russian government that was opposed by Sunni Islamist
fundamentalists and tribal factions. The United States was supporting
Saudi Arabia's involvement in forming a counterweight to Soviet
influence.

... snip ...

and internal CIA
https://www.amazon.com/Permanent-Record-Edward-Snowden-ebook/dp/B07STQPGH6/
pg133/loc1916-17:
But al-Qaeda did maintain unusually close ties with our allies the
Saudis, a fact that the Bush White House worked suspiciously hard to
suppress as we went to war with two other countries.

... snip ...

The Accumulated Evil of the Whole: That time Bush and Co. made the
September 11 Attacks a Pretext for War on Iraq
https://www.juancole.com/2021/09/accumulated-september-pretext.html
Before the Iraq invasion, the cousin of white house chief of staff Card
... was dealing with the Iraqis at the UN and was given evidence that
WMDs (tracing back to US in the Iran/Iraq war) had been
decommissioned. the cousin shared it with (cousin, white house chief of
staff) Card and others ... then is locked up in military hospital, book
was published in 2010 (4yrs before decommissioned WMDs were
declassified)
https://www.amazon.com/EXTREME-PREJUDICE-Terrifying-Story-Patriot-ebook/dp/B004HYHBK2/
NY Times series from 2014, the decommission WMDs (tracing back to US
from Iran/Iraq war), had been found early in the invasion, but the
information was classified for a decade
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/10/14/world/middleeast/us-casualties-of-iraq-chemical-weapons.html

CIA Director Colby wouldn't approve the "Team B" analysis (exaggerated
USSR military capability) and Rumsfeld got Colby replaced with Bush, who
would approve "Team B" analysis (justifying huge DOD spending increase),
after Rumsfeld replaces Colby, he resigns as white house chief of staff
to become SECDEF (and is replaced by his assistant Cheney)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_B
former CIA director H.W. is VP, he and Rumsfeld are involved in
supporting Iraq in the Iran/Iraq war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War
including WMDs (note picture of Rumsfeld with Saddam)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_war
VP and former CIA director repeatedly claims no knowledge of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair
because he was fulltime administration point person deregulating
financial industry ... creating S&L crisis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_and_loan_crisis along with other
members of his family
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_and_loan_crisis#Silverado_Savings_and_Loan
and another
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE0D81E3BF937A25753C1A966958260

In the early 90s, H.W. is president and Cheney is SECDEF. Sat. photo
recon analyst told white house that Saddam was marshaling forces to
invade Kuwait. White house said that Saddam would do no such thing and
proceeded to discredit the analyst. Later the analyst informed the white
house that Saddam was marshaling forces to invade Saudi Arabia, now the
white house has to choose between Saddam and the Saudis.
https://www.amazon.com/Long-Strange-Journey-Intelligence-ebook/dp/B004NNV5H2/
... roll forward ... Bush2 is president and presides over the huge cut
in taxes, huge increase in spending, explosion in debt, the economic
mess (70 times larger than his faster's S&L crises) and the forever
wars, Cheney is VP, Rumsfeld is SECDEF and one of the Team B members is
deputy SECDEF (and major architect of Iraq policy).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Wolfowitz

turn of century, the military-industrial complex had wanted a war so
badly that corporate reps were telling former eastern block countries
that if they voted for IRAQ2 invasion in the UN, they would get
membership in NATO and (directed appropriation) USAID (can *ONLY* be
used for purchase of modern US arms, aka additional congressional gifts
to MIC complex not in DOD budget). From the law of unintended
consequences, the invaders were told to bypass ammo dumps looking for
WMDs, when they got around to going back, over a million metric tons had
evaporated (showing up later in IEDs)
https://www.amazon.com/Prophets-War-Lockheed-Military-Industrial-ebook/dp/B0047T86BA/

... kicking hundreds of thousands of former soldiers out on the streets
spawned ISIS ... and bypassing the ammo dumps (looking for
fictitious/fabricated WMDs) gave them over a million metric tons.

Ghost Riders of Baghdad: Soldiers, Civilians, and the Myth of the Surge
https://www.amazon.com/Ghost-Riders-Baghdad-Soldiers-Civilians-ebook/dp/B014PWVUAC/
pg111/loc2179-82:
The backstory to all this is well reported. The Bush administration
appointed hundreds of politically loyal neoconservative bureaucrats to
run postwar Iraq, including the top civilian official--L. Paul
Bremer. Bremer, heavily influenced by Iraqi exiles like Ahmed Chalabi
and supported by Vice President Dick Cheney, implemented a policy of
de-Baathification.

pg111/loc2193-95:
On 16 April 2003, Bremer, against the advice of Colin Powell's State
Department and the Central Intelligence Agency, disbanded the Iraqi
Army. 16 This seemingly simple decision placed a few hundred thousand
unemployed young men back on the street with no effective reintegration
strategy. pg171/loc3246-49: All this talk of "what-ifs" and lost Surge
opportunities ignores one salient, if uncomfortable, fact: ISIS is an
outgrowth of our own invasion. Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF--as we
gleefully named it) was more than just an awful euphemism; it spelled
catastrophe--and chaos--for most Iraqis.

... snip ...
--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
Maus
2021-11-05 22:05:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anne & Lynn Wheeler
... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the
bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to
carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of
large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers.
I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the
Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be
secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which
never happened.
I note that the Japanese navy are building their first carrier since
WWII
--
***@mail.com
That's not a mousehole!
Peter Flass
2021-11-05 22:55:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Maus
Post by Anne & Lynn Wheeler
... several stories that the US carriers weren't at Pearl and that the
bombing of the battleships actually helped with US transition to
carriers. The real prize at Pearl which wasn't touched was the farm of
large oil tanks ... needed to fuel the carriers.
I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the
Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be
secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave, which
never happened.
I note that the Japanese navy are building their first carrier since
WWII
They’ve resurrected the name Kaga for the first one. I hope things turn out
better this time.
--
Pete
Robert Swindells
2021-11-06 15:38:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I was hoping for an explanation of why, but didn’t get one. I guess the
Japanese expected to get our carriers, in which case the oil would be
secondary. They probably planned to attack them in the second wave,
which never happened.
... after finding the US carriers weren't in port, the Japanese carriers
fleeing to the north from Hawaii, were lucky because the US carriers had
started hunting west of the islands
The US carriers were lucky that they didn't find the Japanese fleet.

US carrier aircraft then were much less advanced than the ones shot down
at Midway.

In contrast, the Indian Ocean Raid is usually presented as a lucky escape
for the Royal Navy but it had a lot of experience of doing radar guided
night attacks and fighter interceptions by that stage of the war.
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
2021-11-04 18:32:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 4 Nov 2021 10:11:44 -0700 (PDT)
Post by Quadibloc
Perceptive, perhaps. But self-exculpatory, certainly.
The Nazis were _lying_ about the Jews, about Czechoslovakia, about Poland,
as they stirred up hostility in Germany to them.
Nothing in his statement suggested that the truth was required to
achieve the ends, only that the ends were simple to achieve by making the
right kind of statements true or not.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
711 Spooky Mart
2021-11-07 00:25:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 11/4/21 12:11 PM, Quadibloc wrote:

[...]
Post by Quadibloc
Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor.
But he did help plan and orchestrate Pearl Harbor. You obviously have no
idea how war actually worked in those days.

Von Clauzewitz : War is politics by other means.
Sun Tzu : The best general has defeated his enemy before the war begins.

What does this mean? It means the wars are planned well in advance of
any actual casus belli. Wars don't just "happen." They are not the
result of one country stepping on another country's toes. They are part
of long-term economic planning cooperation between all sides involved.

When you see "coalition" forces of multiple countries, this means the
country they are attacking has failed to follow the agreed war theatre
plan. They go in and take out the persons who reneged on the plan
(Saddam, Gadafi, Taliban) then divide the spoils. Occasionally someone
rises to power who says, "I'm no longer working with your new world
order," so the coalition forces of "liberators" invade to take that
person out, and force the country back into the economic plan.

The elites and aristocrats on all sides in the conflict agree to war
long in advance, and agree how they are going to reduce the population,
and divide up the economic spoils, before the saber-rattling theatre begins.

The commies in the state department, the Iranian
Ayatolas, the Israeli leaders, the Russians, are all on the same team.
Everything that you see is theatre. They all have the same goals. You're
just cattle to them, to be decieved, used, and culled in engineered and
well-planned conflicts.

Before the USA invades a country they spend a decade or more
infiltrating the target country with their agents and provocateurs, to
destablize the country, then create pretextual acts for causus belli.

If the USA really ever condsidered Russia its enemy, there would have
been zero diplomatic relations, and USA would have had its own Atlantic
curtain blocking out all access to the country, to protect the people.

The same way that cops infiltrate protests as agent provocateurs, the
war hawks infiltrate countries years in advance of planned wars, to
agitate circumstances to bring the war about.

Meanwhile you think it is your team vs their team. It's all theatre,
from all sides involved. Yes it is this cynical, and yes, all your
leaders are this evil.
--
──┏━━━━┓──┏━━┓───┏━━┓── ┌────────────────────────┐ ┌────────┐
──┗━━┓─┃──┗┓─┃───┗┓─┃── │ Spooky Mart [chan] 711 │ │ always │
─────┃─┃──┏┛─┗┓──┏┛─┗┓─ │ https://bitmessage.org │ │ open │
─────┗━┛──┗━━━┛──┗━━━┛─ └────────────────────────┘ └────────┘
gareth evans
2021-11-07 11:20:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
... Occasionally someone
rises to power who says, "I'm no longer working with your new world
order," so the coalition forces of "liberators" invade to take that
person out, and force the country back into the economic plan.
The aggression of the French towards the British following from Brexit?
D.J.
2021-11-07 14:55:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by 711 Spooky Mart
[...]
Post by Quadibloc
Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor.
But he did help plan and orchestrate Pearl Harbor. You obviously have no
idea how war actually worked in those days.
Von Clauzewitz : War is politics by other means.
Sun Tzu : The best general has defeated his enemy before the war begins.
What does this mean? It means the wars are planned well in advance of
any actual casus belli. Wars don't just "happen." They are not the
result of one country stepping on another country's toes. They are part
of long-term economic planning cooperation between all sides involved.
Nonsense. That sounds like a conspiracy theory.
J. Clarke
2021-11-07 15:15:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by D.J.
Post by 711 Spooky Mart
[...]
Post by Quadibloc
Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor.
But he did help plan and orchestrate Pearl Harbor. You obviously have no
idea how war actually worked in those days.
Von Clauzewitz : War is politics by other means.
Sun Tzu : The best general has defeated his enemy before the war begins.
What does this mean? It means the wars are planned well in advance of
any actual casus belli. Wars don't just "happen." They are not the
result of one country stepping on another country's toes. They are part
of long-term economic planning cooperation between all sides involved.
Nonsense. That sounds like a conspiracy theory.
It pretty much is.

I would like to see "711" show the communications between Roosevelt
and the Japanese that were instrumental in this "planning and
orchestration".

I think it's fairly well established that Roosevelt wanted to get the
US into the war, but "planned and orchestrated Pearl Harbor" is rather
overstating the case.

Whether the miscommunication between the War Department and Short and
Kimmel was deliberate or mere incompetence is another story.
711 Spooky Mart
2021-11-08 05:44:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by D.J.
Post by 711 Spooky Mart
[...]
Post by Quadibloc
Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor.
But he did help plan and orchestrate Pearl Harbor. You obviously have no
idea how war actually worked in those days.
Von Clauzewitz : War is politics by other means.
Sun Tzu : The best general has defeated his enemy before the war begins.
What does this mean? It means the wars are planned well in advance of
any actual casus belli. Wars don't just "happen." They are not the
result of one country stepping on another country's toes. They are part
of long-term economic planning cooperation between all sides involved.
Nonsense. That sounds like a conspiracy theory.
Right, because we all know that politicians and military war hawks
_never_ conspire. They're all angels, right?

Davos. G8. Bilderberg. UN Security Council. NATO. World Bank. BIS.
Countless think tanks. What do you think these thugs are doing? Don't
ask Don Quixote.

The pirates put up pretty colored flags in place of the Jolly Roger, so
there's nothing to see here.

"Conspiracy theory" is a psychopolitical demonization term used by these
very gangs of thugs.

Read General Smedley Butler's "War is a Racket." Then see what tune you
are singing.

Also read Sun Tzu's art of war. The general achieves then maintains
control of the terrain by use of spies (and provacateurs). A successful
general defeats his enemy before going to battle with him, by
manufacturing the factions that will do battle, and getting them all to
do useless things.

Once conquest is achieved, the only way to maintain that power is
permanent war and revolution, vide Von Clauzewitz' "War is politics by
other means." Otherwise some strappers may gain the momentum necessary
to challenge the reigning power. To prevent this constant conflict is
agitated, to constantly redirect popular energy to movements and
resistance that goes nowhere. The communists called this controlling
both sides of a conflict.

Once generals have achieved an objective over a conquered population,
they must maintain the 'peace' by constantly embroiling all sides in
manufactured conflicts. This is the "divide and conquer" strategy,
sometimes also called "Cloward and Piven strategy." This is the
communist precept of "permanent revolution." This is the Hegelian
Dialectic as described by Karl Marx in the Communist Manifesto.

This is exactly what your rulers are doing. They are putting on a
pageant for you to take at face value, so you will tilt at windmills.
--
──┏━━━━┓──┏━━┓───┏━━┓── ┌────────────────────────┐ ┌────────┐
──┗━━┓─┃──┗┓─┃───┗┓─┃── │ Spooky Mart [chan] 711 │ │ always │
─────┃─┃──┏┛─┗┓──┏┛─┗┓─ │ https://bitmessage.org │ │ open │
─────┗━┛──┗━━━┛──┗━━━┛─ └────────────────────────┘ └────────┘
Maus
2021-11-08 15:39:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by 711 Spooky Mart
[...]
Post by Quadibloc
Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor.
Once generals have achieved an objective over a conquered population,
they must maintain the 'peace' by constantly embroiling all sides in
manufactured conflicts. This is the "divide and conquer" strategy,
sometimes also called "Cloward and Piven strategy." This is the
communist precept of "permanent revolution." This is the Hegelian
Dialectic as described by Karl Marx in the Communist Manifesto.
This is exactly what your rulers are doing. They are putting on a
pageant for you to take at face value, so you will tilt at windmills.
Any General staff will have plans for the most unlikely scenarios, at
least they should.

Joe Biden wanders away and cannot be found?

Dust off the joe-biden-gets-lost file!
--
***@mail.com
That's not a mousehole!
Thomas Koenig
2021-11-08 17:06:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Maus
Joe Biden wanders away and cannot be found?
Lorenzo Smythe to the rescue!
D.J.
2021-11-08 15:51:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by 711 Spooky Mart
Post by D.J.
Post by 711 Spooky Mart
[...]
Post by Quadibloc
Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor.
But he did help plan and orchestrate Pearl Harbor. You obviously have no
idea how war actually worked in those days.
Von Clauzewitz : War is politics by other means.
Sun Tzu : The best general has defeated his enemy before the war begins.
What does this mean? It means the wars are planned well in advance of
any actual casus belli. Wars don't just "happen." They are not the
result of one country stepping on another country's toes. They are part
of long-term economic planning cooperation between all sides involved.
Nonsense. That sounds like a conspiracy theory.
Right, because we all know that politicians and military war hawks
_never_ conspire. They're all angels, right?
Davos. G8. Bilderberg. UN Security Council. NATO. World Bank. BIS.
Countless think tanks. What do you think these thugs are doing? Don't
ask Don Quixote.
The pirates put up pretty colored flags in place of the Jolly Roger, so
there's nothing to see here.
"Conspiracy theory" is a psychopolitical demonization term used by these
very gangs of thugs.
Read General Smedley Butler's "War is a Racket." Then see what tune you
are singing.
It is a conspiracy theory until you provide proof/evidence. I've read
books by both Allied and Axis leaders and generals, and lower ranks.

No collusion.
Peter Flass
2021-11-08 17:52:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by 711 Spooky Mart
Post by D.J.
Post by 711 Spooky Mart
[...]
Post by Quadibloc
Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor.
But he did help plan and orchestrate Pearl Harbor. You obviously have no
idea how war actually worked in those days.
Von Clauzewitz : War is politics by other means.
Sun Tzu : The best general has defeated his enemy before the war begins.
What does this mean? It means the wars are planned well in advance of
any actual casus belli. Wars don't just "happen." They are not the
result of one country stepping on another country's toes. They are part
of long-term economic planning cooperation between all sides involved.
Nonsense. That sounds like a conspiracy theory.
Right, because we all know that politicians and military war hawks
_never_ conspire. They're all angels, right?
If you’re going to set up a conspiracy you aren’t going to sink half your
fleet to start off. You’d stage something like the NAZIs did with Poland
where you get a couple of expendables killed and then blow it up into a big
thing. 1942 was a tough year in the Pacific for the US and its allies. If
things had gone differently at Midway the war might have had a completely
different outcome.
--
Pete
Maus
2021-11-08 19:14:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Flass
If you’re going to set up a conspiracy you aren’t going to sink half your
fleet to start off. You’d stage something like the NAZIs did with Poland
where you get a couple of expendables killed and then blow it up into a big
thing. 1942 was a tough year in the Pacific for the US and its allies. If
things had gone differently at Midway the war might have had a completely
different outcome.
Doubt it. Once the Germans had been stopped at Moscow, and the ordinary
Russian found out what was to happen if Germany won the war, it was only
a matter of time.

Thinking today, there was a lot of very nasty things happening in
Manchuria before the Russian Invasion and after it, which is not really
known in The west.

I have been told that is is noticed that Japanese tourists do not leave
litter behind them, wheere Chinese tourists do, I remember in a Muslim
country the tourist bus stopped and people got off to see something, and
one discarded a wrapper, A flock of sheep saw it and pounced.
--
***@mail.com
That's not a mousehole!
John Levine
2021-11-08 22:22:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Maus
If you’re going to set up a conspiracy you aren’t going to sink half your
fleet to start off. You’d stage something like the NAZIs did with Poland
where you get a couple of expendables killed and then blow it up into a big
thing. 1942 was a tough year in the Pacific for the US and its allies. If
things had gone differently at Midway the war might have had a completely
different outcome.
Doubt it. Once the Germans had been stopped at Moscow, and the ordinary
Russian found out what was to happen if Germany won the war, it was only
a matter of time. ...
We would have won, but the situation afterward could have been quite different.

The Soviet Union declared war on Japan the same week we bombed Hiroshima and
Nagasaki. If the war had gone on longer, in all likelihood Japan would have
been divided into Soviet and US zones rather than Korea.

It's also not out of the question that we might have had a negotiated peace
that left Japan with some of their conquered territory. I doubt we would have
let them keep the Philippines but France was in no condition to demand that
they return Vietnam nor the Netherlands to return Indonesia.
--
Regards,
John Levine, ***@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
J. Clarke
2021-11-08 23:07:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Flass
Post by 711 Spooky Mart
Post by D.J.
Post by 711 Spooky Mart
[...]
Post by Quadibloc
Franklin Delan Roosevelt didn't make up Pearl Harbor.
But he did help plan and orchestrate Pearl Harbor. You obviously have no
idea how war actually worked in those days.
Von Clauzewitz : War is politics by other means.
Sun Tzu : The best general has defeated his enemy before the war begins.
What does this mean? It means the wars are planned well in advance of
any actual casus belli. Wars don't just "happen." They are not the
result of one country stepping on another country's toes. They are part
of long-term economic planning cooperation between all sides involved.
Nonsense. That sounds like a conspiracy theory.
Right, because we all know that politicians and military war hawks
_never_ conspire. They're all angels, right?
If you’re going to set up a conspiracy you aren’t going to sink half your
fleet to start off. You’d stage something like the NAZIs did with Poland
where you get a couple of expendables killed and then blow it up into a big
thing. 1942 was a tough year in the Pacific for the US and its allies. If
things had gone differently at Midway the war might have had a completely
different outcome.
What would have been different is the timeline and degree of
destruction, not the outcome. "30 Seconds Over Tokyo" might have been
a B-36 with the entire city leveled.
John Levine
2021-11-09 01:58:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
If you’re going to set up a conspiracy you aren’t going to sink half your
fleet to start off. You’d stage something like the NAZIs did with Poland
where you get a couple of expendables killed and then blow it up into a big
thing. 1942 was a tough year in the Pacific for the US and its allies. If
things had gone differently at Midway the war might have had a completely
different outcome.
What would have been different is the timeline and degree of
destruction, not the outcome. "30 Seconds Over Tokyo" might have been
a B-36 with the entire city leveled.
In March 1945 we *did* level the city with a two-day firebombing raid.
It killed 100,000 people, injured an unknown but probably similar
number, and left a million homeless.

It was considerably more destructive than Hiroshima or Nagasaki
but it took 279 B-29s rather than one.
--
Regards,
John Levine, ***@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
2021-11-04 05:01:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 3 Nov 2021 21:02:18 -0400
Post by 1p166
Besides we Linux people know WE are the best :-)
Nah! Second best, BSD is the best :)
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Bob Eager
2021-11-04 13:48:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Post by 1p166
Besides we Linux people know WE are the best :-)
Nah! Second best, BSD is the best :)
+1
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Scott Lurndal
2021-11-04 15:46:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Post by 1p166
Besides we Linux people know WE are the best :-)
Nah! Second best, BSD is the best :)
+1
-2.

See the pdp10 usenet group for a recent example of where BSD falls down.

SVR4 forever! :-)
Rich Alderson
2021-11-04 19:26:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Post by 1p166
Besides we Linux people know WE are the best :-)
Nah! Second best, BSD is the best :)
+1
-2.
See the pdp10 usenet group for a recent example of where BSD falls down.
SVR4 forever! :-)
+1
--
Rich Alderson ***@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen
1p166
2021-11-05 03:51:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Wed, 3 Nov 2021 21:02:18 -0400
Post by 1p166
Besides we Linux people know WE are the best :-)
Nah! Second best, BSD is the best :)
"Close competitor" :-)

Sorry, but the BSDs are still kinda "unrefined".
You have to do about 50% more work to achieve the
same results.

Some may see that as good, but there could be some
debate on that subject.
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
2021-11-05 07:37:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 4 Nov 2021 23:51:04 -0400
Post by 1p166
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Wed, 3 Nov 2021 21:02:18 -0400
Post by 1p166
Besides we Linux people know WE are the best :-)
Nah! Second best, BSD is the best :)
"Close competitor" :-)
Sorry, but the BSDs are still kinda "unrefined".
You have to do about 50% more work to achieve the
same results.
BSDs are more industrial style - solid, reliable, consistent. Linux
distributions tend to be more consumer style - flashy, convenient,
constantly changing. I prefer the former.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Bob Eager
2021-11-05 08:54:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Post by 1p166
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Post by 1p166
Besides we Linux people know WE are the best :-)
Nah! Second best, BSD is the best :)
"Close competitor" :-)
Sorry, but the BSDs are still kinda "unrefined". You have to do
about 50% more work to achieve the same results.
BSDs are more industrial style - solid, reliable, consistent.
Linux
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
distributions tend to be more consumer style - flashy, convenient,
constantly changing. I prefer the former.
+1.

Perhaps Linux is simpler for people to use because many management
operations only need you to know about one thing - systemd.
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Scott Lurndal
2021-11-05 13:49:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Thu, 4 Nov 2021 23:51:04 -0400
Post by 1p166
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Wed, 3 Nov 2021 21:02:18 -0400
Post by 1p166
Besides we Linux people know WE are the best :-)
Nah! Second best, BSD is the best :)
"Close competitor" :-)
Sorry, but the BSDs are still kinda "unrefined".
You have to do about 50% more work to achieve the
same results.
BSDs are more industrial style - solid, reliable, consistent. Linux
distributions tend to be more consumer style - flashy, convenient,
constantly changing. I prefer the former.
I give you Redhat Enterprise Linux and SUSE Enterprise Linux Server. Far
more solid, reliable and consistent than any *BSD release. Ever. Hands down.
The Natural Philosopher
2021-11-04 11:08:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 3 Nov 2021 00:27:54 -0400
    The Big Money people had this figured out LONG
    ago - centuries ago actually. Even Machivelli
    understood the utility of cultivating those
    fake "sides".
    Sadly this and all above it is all too true - the lessons of
Machiavelli and Sun Tzu are well understood by the major players and have
been polished for centuries into a smooth art. In a similar vein I fairly
recently re-read Orwell's 1984 and found it shockingly simplistic and naive,
that was a sobering discovery.
  It used to be the politicians/priesthood, but then
  the ADVERTISERS came - and post-WW2 undertook what
  you might call the "science of salesmanship", lots
  of psych experiments designed to yield objective
  data. What motivates people, in what ways, how much,
  how long ... they made manipulation a science.  And
  then the politicians/priesthood (esp evangelicals)
  borrowed all that data.
Black magic, meet science.
  I'll rec a somewhat old book to you - it can still
  be had. It was writ in the late 50s by a polymath
  named Jaques Ellul and called "The Technological
  Society". It was not about computers - it was about
  the growth of science-informed psychological
  manipulation by State and private entities. The
  original was in French, but the English translation
  is perfectly readable, albeit with some rather odd
  wording at times.
  Hmm ... I wonder what Obama's "Brain Initiative" was
  REALLY supposed to find out  :-)
    The indoctrination for it starts in the earliest school with "What's
your favourite colour" and gets strengthened outside the classroom with
"Who do you support".
    I remain thankful that Hermann Göring's astute observation on the
ease of raising war fever is not widely utilised today - I remain slightly
suspicious about the Falkland's War being a field test of the
principle, it
was certainly a good demonstration if not.
  Goebbels ... Goring's interests rarely strayed from killing
  people .......
  Goebbels was a very GOOD propagandist ... but fortunately
  his instincts and insights were mostly limited to German
  culture. His stuff never translated very well.
  But if Goebbels had the wealth of scientific data the
  Mad Men compiled ...
  Anyway, the MS/Apple "duality" is a sort of deliberate
  scam. You pick a side and are encouraged to feel all
  superior about it, hurl distain at "those OTHERS".
  Meanwhile the big investors buy stock in BOTH companies
  and encourage the 'competition' illusion.
And I hold stock in the big investors.
  Besides we Linux people know WE are the best  :-)
From a certain technological point of view, yes.

But it ain't the only point of view.
--
Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
2021-11-04 19:09:33 UTC
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On Tue, 02 Nov 2021 00:21:46 -0400
I took to Scripsit like a duck to water.
You avoided Electric Pencil - IIRC that was a good move.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Jorgen Grahn
2021-11-05 22:17:47 UTC
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...
Those STILL have
fans and some Linux utilities STILL support the
Amiga disk formats plus there are other Amiga
support programs too. I bought the original, but
there were SO many "Guru Meditation" messages
that I dumped the thing and bought a Sanyo-550
PC (semi)-Clone.
The Amiga's biggest shortcoming was its lack of memory
protection. If you stayed away from buggy software
that stomped on random memory locations, you could
avoid almost all Guru Meditations.
The ones that were hardest to avoid was those you caused yourself
by trying to run the code you wrote ;-)

But no, I don't remember them as a major problem. And I used to see
memory protection as a luxury item: not worth its price in terms of
hardware and in the complication of the system APIs.

/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Peter Flass
2021-11-05 22:55:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jorgen Grahn
...
Those STILL have
fans and some Linux utilities STILL support the
Amiga disk formats plus there are other Amiga
support programs too. I bought the original, but
there were SO many "Guru Meditation" messages
that I dumped the thing and bought a Sanyo-550
PC (semi)-Clone.
The Amiga's biggest shortcoming was its lack of memory
protection. If you stayed away from buggy software
that stomped on random memory locations, you could
avoid almost all Guru Meditations.
The ones that were hardest to avoid was those you caused yourself
by trying to run the code you wrote ;-)
But no, I don't remember them as a major problem. And I used to see
memory protection as a luxury item: not worth its price in terms of
hardware and in the complication of the system APIs.
/Jorgen
Sure, if you write good code it won’t be a problem. What could possibly go
wrong?
--
Pete
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