Discussion:
Is the Eternal September over
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Jason Evans
2020-08-08 13:34:59 UTC
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From wikipedia:
Eternal September or the September that never ended is Usenet slang for a
period beginning in September 1993, the month that Internet service
provider America Online (AOL) began offering Usenet access to its many
users, overwhelming the existing culture for online forums.

Before then, Usenet was largely restricted to colleges, universities, and
other research institutions. Every September, many incoming students
would acquire access to Usenet for the first time, taking time to become
accustomed to Usenet's standards of conduct and "netiquette". After a
month or so, these new users would either learn to comply with the
networks' social norms or tire of using the service.

Since then the popularity of the Internet has led to a constant stream of
new users. Hence, from the point of view of the early Usenet, the influx
of new users in September 1993 never ended.

Dave Fischer appears to have coined the term in a January 1994 post to
alt.folklore.computers: "It's moot now. September 1993 will go down in
net history as the September that never ended."
With the exception of those who use Usenet as a means of downloading
pirated material and who provide nothing of value to Usenet at all, is
the eternal september over and should we go back to the days of valuing
quality communication and netiquette? By being over, I mean the gradual
loss of interest in Usenet over centralized corporate platforms like
Reddit, Twitter, and Facebook.

I'm in the process of writing a new guide on netiquette for beginners
based on RFC1855, Spaf's "A Primer on How to Work With the USENET
Community", and a few other documents but without the legalistic nannying
that many "Codes of Conduct" have.

If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real and
living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most
important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they
start using Usenet?

JE
Dan Espen
2020-08-08 16:16:09 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Jason Evans
Eternal September or the September that never ended is Usenet slang for a
period beginning in September 1993, the month that Internet service
provider America Online (AOL) began offering Usenet access to its many
users, overwhelming the existing culture for online forums.
Before then, Usenet was largely restricted to colleges, universities, and
other research institutions. Every September, many incoming students
would acquire access to Usenet for the first time, taking time to become
accustomed to Usenet's standards of conduct and "netiquette". After a
month or so, these new users would either learn to comply with the
networks' social norms or tire of using the service.
Since then the popularity of the Internet has led to a constant stream of
new users. Hence, from the point of view of the early Usenet, the influx
of new users in September 1993 never ended.
Dave Fischer appears to have coined the term in a January 1994 post to
alt.folklore.computers: "It's moot now. September 1993 will go down in
net history as the September that never ended."
With the exception of those who use Usenet as a means of downloading
pirated material and who provide nothing of value to Usenet at all, is
the eternal september over and should we go back to the days of valuing
quality communication and netiquette? By being over, I mean the gradual
loss of interest in Usenet over centralized corporate platforms like
Reddit, Twitter, and Facebook.
I'm in the process of writing a new guide on netiquette for beginners
based on RFC1855, Spaf's "A Primer on How to Work With the USENET
Community", and a few other documents but without the legalistic nannying
that many "Codes of Conduct" have.
If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real and
living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most
important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they
start using Usenet?
No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.

I was just reading about brain damage caused by COVID-19.
For some unfathomable reason we're sending kids back to school.
It's going to get worse, much worse.
--
Dan Espen
Jason Evans
2020-08-08 16:23:46 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Jason Evans
If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real and
living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most
important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they
start using Usenet?
No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
I was just reading about brain damage caused by COVID-19.
For some unfathomable reason we're sending kids back to school.
It's going to get worse, much worse.
How many of these posts are from new users who don't know any better
because they are new to Usenet and how many are from spammer and trolls
who have been here forever who continually spout nonsense, spam, and
conspiracy theories? They former seems like they would be symptoms of the
Eternal September. The latter seems like they are the cruft that comes
with having unmoderated groups.

JE
J. Clarke
2020-08-08 17:34:32 UTC
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Permalink
On Sat, 8 Aug 2020 16:23:46 -0000 (UTC), Jason Evans
Post by Jason Evans
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Jason Evans
If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real and
living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most
important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they
start using Usenet?
No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
I was just reading about brain damage caused by COVID-19.
For some unfathomable reason we're sending kids back to school.
It's going to get worse, much worse.
How many of these posts are from new users who don't know any better
because they are new to Usenet and how many are from spammer and trolls
who have been here forever who continually spout nonsense, spam, and
conspiracy theories? They former seems like they would be symptoms of the
Eternal September. The latter seems like they are the cruft that comes
with having unmoderated groups.
There's also the influx from Google Groups with all of its fallout.
Dan Espen
2020-08-08 17:41:19 UTC
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Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 8 Aug 2020 16:23:46 -0000 (UTC), Jason Evans
Post by Jason Evans
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Jason Evans
If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real and
living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most
important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they
start using Usenet?
No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
I was just reading about brain damage caused by COVID-19.
For some unfathomable reason we're sending kids back to school.
It's going to get worse, much worse.
How many of these posts are from new users who don't know any better
because they are new to Usenet and how many are from spammer and trolls
who have been here forever who continually spout nonsense, spam, and
conspiracy theories? They former seems like they would be symptoms of the
Eternal September. The latter seems like they are the cruft that comes
with having unmoderated groups.
There's also the influx from Google Groups with all of its fallout.
On a number of groups we have other forums (like homeowners heaven) using
a gateway to Usenet to make it look like they have traffic. I see posts
responding to threads from 10 or 20 years ago with zero citations.
--
Dan Espen
J. Clarke
2020-08-08 20:21:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 8 Aug 2020 16:23:46 -0000 (UTC), Jason Evans
Post by Jason Evans
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Jason Evans
If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real and
living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most
important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they
start using Usenet?
No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
I was just reading about brain damage caused by COVID-19.
For some unfathomable reason we're sending kids back to school.
It's going to get worse, much worse.
How many of these posts are from new users who don't know any better
because they are new to Usenet and how many are from spammer and trolls
who have been here forever who continually spout nonsense, spam, and
conspiracy theories? They former seems like they would be symptoms of the
Eternal September. The latter seems like they are the cruft that comes
with having unmoderated groups.
There's also the influx from Google Groups with all of its fallout.
On a number of groups we have other forums (like homeowners heaven) using
a gateway to Usenet to make it look like they have traffic. I see posts
responding to threads from 10 or 20 years ago with zero citations.
Yeah. And every once in a while if one comments on a post on one of
those one will be threatened with "I'm going to complain to your
manager". An empty threat to someone who is self-employed, or
retired, or whose manager has no clue that such a thing as USENET
exists.
Dan Espen
2020-08-08 17:38:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jason Evans
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Jason Evans
If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real and
living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most
important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they
start using Usenet?
No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
I was just reading about brain damage caused by COVID-19.
For some unfathomable reason we're sending kids back to school.
It's going to get worse, much worse.
How many of these posts are from new users who don't know any better
because they are new to Usenet and how many are from spammer and trolls
who have been here forever who continually spout nonsense, spam, and
conspiracy theories? They former seems like they would be symptoms of the
Eternal September. The latter seems like they are the cruft that comes
with having unmoderated groups.
This is true, but the result is the same.
--
Dan Espen
Andreas Kohlbach
2020-08-08 20:14:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Jason Evans
If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real and
living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most
important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they
start using Usenet?
No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
Besides that it's mostly spam flooding Newsgroups today. Nothing to do
with AOL users. AFAIK AOL does no longer offer usenet access. It's over.
--
Andreas
Rink
2020-08-09 18:06:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andreas Kohlbach
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Jason Evans
If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real and
living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most
important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they
start using Usenet?
No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
Besides that it's mostly spam flooding Newsgroups today. Nothing to do
with AOL users. AFAIK AOL does no longer offer usenet access. It's over.
Usenet is not from AOL.
There are many usenet providers,
yes less than 10 years ago, but still enough.

Rink
Nomen Nescio
2020-08-11 23:46:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andreas Kohlbach
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Jason Evans
If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real and
living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most
important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they
start using Usenet?
No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
Besides that it's mostly spam flooding Newsgroups today. Nothing to do
with AOL users. AFAIK AOL does no longer offer usenet access. It's over.
AOL does no offer Usenet access since 2005. However, I don't think
Eternal September is tied to AOL. Yes, it's started with AOL, but it was
bound to happen anyway. It's a problem all communities are facing when
they get too popular.
Dave Garrett
2020-08-08 23:53:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive killfile,
the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily due to the gang of
incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not budge from their
apparent conviction that the name of the newsgroup was really
alt.politics.home.repair.
--
Dave
Dan Espen
2020-08-09 00:43:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Garrett
Post by Dan Espen
No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive killfile,
the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily due to the gang of
incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not budge from their
apparent conviction that the name of the newsgroup was really
alt.politics.home.repair.
Yeah, don't know why I hang around there.
Kill files barely make a dent.
I guess I like the subject of home repair and I keep hoping they'll
go somewhere else.
--
Dan Espen
Bob Eager
2020-08-09 08:03:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Garrett
Post by Dan Espen
No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive killfile,
the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily due to the gang of
incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not budge from their
apparent conviction that the name of the newsgroup was really
alt.politics.home.repair.
WE have the same problem with uk.d-i-y ...
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Dan Espen
2020-08-09 12:25:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dave Garrett
Post by Dan Espen
No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive killfile,
the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily due to the gang of
incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not budge from their
apparent conviction that the name of the newsgroup was really
alt.politics.home.repair.
WE have the same problem with uk.d-i-y ...
From what I've seen, the uk groups are even worse.
A huge amount of name calling and stalking.
Must be that British humor at work, or all the posters are drunk.
--
Dan Espen
Sn!pe
2020-08-09 13:32:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dave Garrett
Post by Dan Espen
No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive killfile,
the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily due to the gang of
incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not budge from their
apparent conviction that the name of the newsgroup was really
alt.politics.home.repair.
WE have the same problem with uk.d-i-y ...
From what I've seen, the uk groups are even worse.
A huge amount of name calling and stalking.
Must be that British humor at work, or all the posters are drunk.
Re: uk.*

Limiting crossposts to three or fewer groups works wonders, then
a handful of poster-specific killfile entries will do the trick.

Greetings, Usenet fans. Usenet may be moribund but it isn't dead
yet; there is even a glimmer of renaissance.

Usenet's greatest strength is its distributed server nature that
"interprets censorship as damage and routes around it". It's in
the nature of the beast that being free of censorship Usenet can't
silence noisy pests, nor should it. Fortunately, a well managed
killfile and a little self-control can deal with that chore.

IMO Usenet is by far superior to FB, Twitter and Reddit too.
There are very few web forums that can better it.
--
^Ï^


My pet rock Gordon just is.
Melzzzzz
2020-08-10 01:15:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sn!pe
IMO Usenet is by far superior to FB, Twitter and Reddit too.
There are very few web forums that can better it.
Of course!
--
current job title: senior software engineer
skills: c++,c,rust,go,nim,haskell...

press any key to continue or any other to quit...
U ničemu ja ne uživam kao u svom statusu INVALIDA -- Zli Zec
Svi smo svedoci - oko 3 godine intenzivne propagande je dovoljno da jedan narod poludi -- Zli Zec
Na divljem zapadu i nije bilo tako puno nasilja, upravo zato jer su svi
bili naoruzani. -- Mladen Gogala
Bob Eager
2020-08-09 14:01:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dave Garrett
Post by Dan Espen
No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive
killfile, the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily due to
the gang of incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not budge from
their apparent conviction that the name of the newsgroup was really
alt.politics.home.repair.
WE have the same problem with uk.d-i-y ...
From what I've seen, the uk groups are even worse.
A huge amount of name calling and stalking.
Must be that British humor at work, or all the posters are drunk.
No, the Brexiteers are foaming at the mouth...
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Dan Espen
2020-08-09 14:40:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dave Garrett
Post by Dan Espen
No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive
killfile, the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily due to
the gang of incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not budge from
their apparent conviction that the name of the newsgroup was really
alt.politics.home.repair.
WE have the same problem with uk.d-i-y ...
From what I've seen, the uk groups are even worse.
A huge amount of name calling and stalking.
Must be that British humor at work, or all the posters are drunk.
No, the Brexiteers are foaming at the mouth...
A damn shame, the EU looks like a very good thing to me.
Hopefully a way of ending centuries of European conflict
and putting the EU on an even basis with the US.
Now if we could get a South American and an African union
going.

I suppose Usenet, but more important the Internet can eventually end
the curse of the Tower of Babel.
--
Dan Espen
Niklas Karlsson
2020-08-09 14:57:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
No, the Brexiteers are foaming at the mouth...
A damn shame, the EU looks like a very good thing to me.
Hopefully a way of ending centuries of European conflict
and putting the EU on an even basis with the US.
Now if we could get a South American and an African union
going.
The African Union exists, we just don't hear much about it generally.

Niklas
--
If you demonstrate that you can cook superior food using an induction
stove, is that an instance of proof by induction?
Dan Espen
2020-08-09 18:48:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Niklas Karlsson
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
No, the Brexiteers are foaming at the mouth...
A damn shame, the EU looks like a very good thing to me.
Hopefully a way of ending centuries of European conflict
and putting the EU on an even basis with the US.
Now if we could get a South American and an African union
going.
The African Union exists, we just don't hear much about it generally.
Somehow, it got by me.

The African Union is a continental union consisting of 55 member
states located on the continent of Africa. The AU was announced in the
Sirte Declaration in Sirte, Libya, on 9 September 1999, calling for
the establishment of the African Union.

Maybe this was why:

Founder: Muammar al-Gaddafi
--
Dan Espen
J. Clarke
2020-08-09 15:09:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dave Garrett
Post by Dan Espen
No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive
killfile, the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily due to
the gang of incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not budge from
their apparent conviction that the name of the newsgroup was really
alt.politics.home.repair.
WE have the same problem with uk.d-i-y ...
From what I've seen, the uk groups are even worse.
A huge amount of name calling and stalking.
Must be that British humor at work, or all the posters are drunk.
No, the Brexiteers are foaming at the mouth...
A damn shame, the EU looks like a very good thing to me.
Hopefully a way of ending centuries of European conflict
and putting the EU on an even basis with the US.
Now if we could get a South American and an African union
going.
I suppose Usenet, but more important the Internet can eventually end
the curse of the Tower of Babel.
My impression is that the problem with the EU is not with the concept
but with the execution.
Bob Eager
2020-08-09 15:15:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dave Garrett
Post by Dan Espen
No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive
killfile, the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily due
to the gang of incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not
budge from their apparent conviction that the name of the newsgroup
was really alt.politics.home.repair.
WE have the same problem with uk.d-i-y ...
From what I've seen, the uk groups are even worse.
A huge amount of name calling and stalking.
Must be that British humor at work, or all the posters are drunk.
No, the Brexiteers are foaming at the mouth...
A damn shame, the EU looks like a very good thing to me.
Hopefully a way of ending centuries of European conflict and putting the
EU on an even basis with the US.
Now if we could get a South American and an African union going.
I suppose Usenet, but more important the Internet can eventually end the
curse of the Tower of Babel.
My impression is that the problem with the EU is not with the concept
but with the execution.
It isn't perfect, but membership is a lot better than non-membership.
Being able to work i 28 countries and pass between them with no
restriction.
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-08-09 16:32:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Eager
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dave Garrett
Post by Dan Espen
No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive
killfile, the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily due
to the gang of incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not
budge from their apparent conviction that the name of the newsgroup
was really alt.politics.home.repair.
WE have the same problem with uk.d-i-y ...
From what I've seen, the uk groups are even worse.
A huge amount of name calling and stalking.
Must be that British humor at work, or all the posters are drunk.
No, the Brexiteers are foaming at the mouth...
A damn shame, the EU looks like a very good thing to me.
Hopefully a way of ending centuries of European conflict and putting the
EU on an even basis with the US.
Now if we could get a South American and an African union going.
That's a very naive view, ignoring corporate vested interests.
Post by Bob Eager
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
I suppose Usenet, but more important the Internet can eventually end the
curse of the Tower of Babel.
My impression is that the problem with the EU is not with the concept
but with the execution.
It isn't perfect, but membership is a lot better than non-membership.
Being able to work i 28 countries and pass between them with no
restriction.
Stop trying to get a rise out of Sn!pe. You're all bad boys.

PS add radio-amateur to the list for longest bickering match ever.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Sn!pe
2020-08-09 16:46:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Garrett
Post by Bob Eager
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dave Garrett
Post by Dan Espen
No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive
killfile, the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily
due
Post by Bob Eager
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dave Garrett
to the gang of incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not
budge from their apparent conviction that the name of the
newsgroup
Post by Bob Eager
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dave Garrett
was really alt.politics.home.repair.
WE have the same problem with uk.d-i-y ...
From what I've seen, the uk groups are even worse.
A huge amount of name calling and stalking.
Must be that British humor at work, or all the posters are drunk.
No, the Brexiteers are foaming at the mouth...
A damn shame, the EU looks like a very good thing to me.
Hopefully a way of ending centuries of European conflict and putting
the
Post by Bob Eager
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
EU on an even basis with the US.
Now if we could get a South American and an African union going.
That's a very naive view, ignoring corporate vested interests.
Post by Bob Eager
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
I suppose Usenet, but more important the Internet can eventually end
the
Post by Bob Eager
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
curse of the Tower of Babel.
My impression is that the problem with the EU is not with the concept
but with the execution.
It isn't perfect, but membership is a lot better than non-membership.
Being able to work i 28 countries and pass between them with no
restriction.
Stop trying to get a rise out of Sn!pe. You're all bad boys.
PS add radio-amateur to the list for longest bickering match ever.
It's faintly amusing that some here were complaining about
politics taking over Usenet. Maybe it's just British humour.
--
^Ï^ http://youtu.be/_kqytf31a8E

My pet rock Gordon just is.
Dan Espen
2020-08-09 18:54:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sn!pe
Post by Dave Garrett
Post by Bob Eager
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dave Garrett
Post by Dan Espen
No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive
killfile, the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily
due
Post by Bob Eager
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dave Garrett
to the gang of incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not
budge from their apparent conviction that the name of the
newsgroup
Post by Bob Eager
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dave Garrett
was really alt.politics.home.repair.
WE have the same problem with uk.d-i-y ...
From what I've seen, the uk groups are even worse.
A huge amount of name calling and stalking.
Must be that British humor at work, or all the posters are drunk.
No, the Brexiteers are foaming at the mouth...
A damn shame, the EU looks like a very good thing to me.
Hopefully a way of ending centuries of European conflict and putting
the
Post by Bob Eager
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
EU on an even basis with the US.
Now if we could get a South American and an African union going.
That's a very naive view, ignoring corporate vested interests.
Post by Bob Eager
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
I suppose Usenet, but more important the Internet can eventually end
the
Post by Bob Eager
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
curse of the Tower of Babel.
My impression is that the problem with the EU is not with the concept
but with the execution.
It isn't perfect, but membership is a lot better than non-membership.
Being able to work i 28 countries and pass between them with no
restriction.
Stop trying to get a rise out of Sn!pe. You're all bad boys.
PS add radio-amateur to the list for longest bickering match ever.
It's faintly amusing that some here were complaining about
politics taking over Usenet. Maybe it's just British humour.
Oh, you're here. You're the idiot participating in a long running
argument on eternal-september.support. Here Ray is running a Usenet
server out of the goodness of his heart and you think he wants to
see that crap.
--
Dan Espen
Sn!pe
2020-08-09 18:58:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Sn!pe
Post by Dave Garrett
Post by Bob Eager
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dave Garrett
Post by Dan Espen
No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive
killfile, the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily
due
Post by Bob Eager
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dave Garrett
to the gang of incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not
budge from their apparent conviction that the name of the
newsgroup
Post by Bob Eager
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dave Garrett
was really alt.politics.home.repair.
WE have the same problem with uk.d-i-y ...
From what I've seen, the uk groups are even worse.
A huge amount of name calling and stalking.
Must be that British humor at work, or all the posters are drunk.
No, the Brexiteers are foaming at the mouth...
A damn shame, the EU looks like a very good thing to me.
Hopefully a way of ending centuries of European conflict and putting
the
Post by Bob Eager
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
EU on an even basis with the US.
Now if we could get a South American and an African union going.
That's a very naive view, ignoring corporate vested interests.
Post by Bob Eager
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
I suppose Usenet, but more important the Internet can eventually end
the
Post by Bob Eager
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
curse of the Tower of Babel.
My impression is that the problem with the EU is not with the concept
but with the execution.
It isn't perfect, but membership is a lot better than non-membership.
Being able to work i 28 countries and pass between them with no
restriction.
Stop trying to get a rise out of Sn!pe. You're all bad boys.
PS add radio-amateur to the list for longest bickering match ever.
It's faintly amusing that some here were complaining about
politics taking over Usenet. Maybe it's just British humour.
Oh, you're here. You're the idiot participating in a long running
argument on eternal-september.support. Here Ray is running a
Usenet server out of the goodness of his heart and you think he
wants to see that crap.
Yes. I'm the one setting f'ups to the bit bucket.
--
^Ï^ http://youtu.be/_kqytf31a8E

My pet rock Gordon just is.
J. Clarke
2020-08-09 17:18:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Eager
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dave Garrett
Post by Dan Espen
No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive
killfile, the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily due
to the gang of incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not
budge from their apparent conviction that the name of the newsgroup
was really alt.politics.home.repair.
WE have the same problem with uk.d-i-y ...
From what I've seen, the uk groups are even worse.
A huge amount of name calling and stalking.
Must be that British humor at work, or all the posters are drunk.
No, the Brexiteers are foaming at the mouth...
A damn shame, the EU looks like a very good thing to me.
Hopefully a way of ending centuries of European conflict and putting the
EU on an even basis with the US.
Now if we could get a South American and an African union going.
I suppose Usenet, but more important the Internet can eventually end the
curse of the Tower of Babel.
My impression is that the problem with the EU is not with the concept
but with the execution.
It isn't perfect, but membership is a lot better than non-membership.
Being able to work i 28 countries and pass between them with no
restriction.
In North America and parts of the Pacific you can work in 50 countries
and pass between them with no restriction.
Rink
2020-08-09 18:09:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Bob Eager
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dave Garrett
Post by Dan Espen
No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive
killfile, the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily due
to the gang of incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not
budge from their apparent conviction that the name of the newsgroup
was really alt.politics.home.repair.
WE have the same problem with uk.d-i-y ...
From what I've seen, the uk groups are even worse.
A huge amount of name calling and stalking.
Must be that British humor at work, or all the posters are drunk.
No, the Brexiteers are foaming at the mouth...
A damn shame, the EU looks like a very good thing to me.
Hopefully a way of ending centuries of European conflict and putting the
EU on an even basis with the US.
Now if we could get a South American and an African union going.
I suppose Usenet, but more important the Internet can eventually end the
curse of the Tower of Babel.
My impression is that the problem with the EU is not with the concept
but with the execution.
It isn't perfect, but membership is a lot better than non-membership.
Being able to work i 28 countries and pass between them with no
restriction.
In North America and parts of the Pacific you can work in 50 countries
and pass between them with no restriction.
Those are called States and the form together one country.....
J. Clarke
2020-08-09 18:34:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 20:09:41 +0200, Rink
Post by Rink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Bob Eager
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dave Garrett
Post by Dan Espen
No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive
killfile, the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily due
to the gang of incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not
budge from their apparent conviction that the name of the newsgroup
was really alt.politics.home.repair.
WE have the same problem with uk.d-i-y ...
From what I've seen, the uk groups are even worse.
A huge amount of name calling and stalking.
Must be that British humor at work, or all the posters are drunk.
No, the Brexiteers are foaming at the mouth...
A damn shame, the EU looks like a very good thing to me.
Hopefully a way of ending centuries of European conflict and putting the
EU on an even basis with the US.
Now if we could get a South American and an African union going.
I suppose Usenet, but more important the Internet can eventually end the
curse of the Tower of Babel.
My impression is that the problem with the EU is not with the concept
but with the execution.
It isn't perfect, but membership is a lot better than non-membership.
Being able to work i 28 countries and pass between them with no
restriction.
In North America and parts of the Pacific you can work in 50 countries
and pass between them with no restriction.
Those are called States and the form together one country.....
Doesn't matter what you call it, each has its own laws, its own
courts, and these days its own king.
Rink
2020-08-10 14:01:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
<snip>
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Rink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Bob Eager
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
A damn shame, the EU looks like a very good thing to me.
Hopefully a way of ending centuries of European conflict and putting the
EU on an even basis with the US.
Now if we could get a South American and an African union going.
I suppose Usenet, but more important the Internet can eventually end the
curse of the Tower of Babel.
My impression is that the problem with the EU is not with the concept
but with the execution.
It isn't perfect, but membership is a lot better than non-membership.
Being able to work i 28 countries and pass between them with no
restriction.
In North America and parts of the Pacific you can work in 50 countries
and pass between them with no restriction.
Those are called States and the form together one country.....
Doesn't matter what you call it, each has its own laws, its own
courts, and these days its own king.
Post by Rink
Post by J. Clarke
In North America and parts of the Pacific you can work
in 50 countries and pass between them with no restriction.
It doesn't matter what I call it, or what you call it.
It has a name: United STATES of America.

And as far I know there are no kings in the USA.


And in Europe every member of the EU is a country.

Rink
J. Clarke
2020-08-10 19:00:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 16:01:17 +0200, Rink
Post by Rink
<snip>
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Rink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Bob Eager
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
A damn shame, the EU looks like a very good thing to me.
Hopefully a way of ending centuries of European conflict and putting the
EU on an even basis with the US.
Now if we could get a South American and an African union going.
I suppose Usenet, but more important the Internet can eventually end the
curse of the Tower of Babel.
My impression is that the problem with the EU is not with the concept
but with the execution.
It isn't perfect, but membership is a lot better than non-membership.
Being able to work i 28 countries and pass between them with no
restriction.
In North America and parts of the Pacific you can work in 50 countries
and pass between them with no restriction.
Those are called States and the form together one country.....
Doesn't matter what you call it, each has its own laws, its own
courts, and these days its own king.
Post by Rink
Post by J. Clarke
In North America and parts of the Pacific you can work
in 50 countries and pass between them with no restriction.
It doesn't matter what I call it, or what you call it.
It has a name: United STATES of America.
And as far I know there are no kings in the USA.
You haven't seen governors busily making and enforcing new laws
without any regard to the legislature or the courts.
Post by Rink
And in Europe every member of the EU is a country.
OK, tell us how a "state" in the US is different from a "country" in
the EU.

Note, I live in the US, I know how the system works and I really don't
like what I'm seeing happen right now.
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
2020-08-10 20:25:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 15:00:16 -0400
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Rink
And in Europe every member of the EU is a country.
OK, tell us how a "state" in the US is different from a "country" in
the EU.
There's a little matter of recognition by other countries, doing
things like issuing passports (that are accepted), membership in
international organisations (UN, NATO ...). Colorado isn't and can't be a
UN member, France is.
Post by J. Clarke
Note, I live in the US, I know how the system works and I really don't
like what I'm seeing happen right now.
AIUI the states were proto-nations at the time they combined to
form the United States, they hadn't quite become nations or perhaps had
only just become nations in some cases, they've been combined into the US
for over two hundred years. The European nations OTOH had (for the most
part) centuries of existence as independent nations (much of it spent
fighting each other) before they decided to start the process that has led
to the EU we see today. That process was started in the 1950s.

It may well in the long term be seen as a difference of degree and
timing rather than fundamental - but there are probably some who would
rather see war than a United States of Europe today.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Peter Flass
2020-08-10 19:33:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rink
<snip>
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Rink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Bob Eager
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
A damn shame, the EU looks like a very good thing to me.
Hopefully a way of ending centuries of European conflict and putting the
EU on an even basis with the US.
Now if we could get a South American and an African union going.
I suppose Usenet, but more important the Internet can eventually end the
curse of the Tower of Babel.
My impression is that the problem with the EU is not with the concept
but with the execution.
It isn't perfect, but membership is a lot better than non-membership.
Being able to work i 28 countries and pass between them with no
restriction.
In North America and parts of the Pacific you can work in 50 countries
and pass between them with no restriction.
Those are called States and the form together one country.....
Doesn't matter what you call it, each has its own laws, its own
courts, and these days its own king.
Post by Rink
Post by J. Clarke
In North America and parts of the Pacific you can work
in 50 countries and pass between them with no restriction.
It doesn't matter what I call it, or what you call it.
It has a name: United STATES of America.
And as far I know there are no kings in the USA.
And in Europe every member of the EU is a country.
Rink
No clear definition of state vs. nation va. country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_(polity)

The difference between the US and the EU is the amount of sovereignty the
“states” have given up to the central authority. The EU is relatively
centralized in some areas (product standards, etc.) and decentralized in
others (no centralized armed forces - well, OK, they have something, but
not a real army, and dependent of national contingents). It’s an experiment
and no one knows how will it turn out. Will it become more centralized, and
turn into a real country? Will it come apart? is it possible it can
continue as it is?
--
Pete
Peter Flass
2020-08-09 22:30:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Bob Eager
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dave Garrett
Post by Dan Espen
No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive
killfile, the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily due
to the gang of incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not
budge from their apparent conviction that the name of the newsgroup
was really alt.politics.home.repair.
WE have the same problem with uk.d-i-y ...
From what I've seen, the uk groups are even worse.
A huge amount of name calling and stalking.
Must be that British humor at work, or all the posters are drunk.
No, the Brexiteers are foaming at the mouth...
A damn shame, the EU looks like a very good thing to me.
Hopefully a way of ending centuries of European conflict and putting the
EU on an even basis with the US.
Now if we could get a South American and an African union going.
I suppose Usenet, but more important the Internet can eventually end the
curse of the Tower of Babel.
My impression is that the problem with the EU is not with the concept
but with the execution.
It isn't perfect, but membership is a lot better than non-membership.
Being able to work i 28 countries and pass between them with no
restriction.
In North America and parts of the Pacific you can work in 50 countries
and pass between them with no restriction.
Those are called States and the form together one country.....
The EU seems to have one foot firmly in each camp. It’s less than a
country, but more than a confederation .
--
Pete
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
2020-08-09 16:41:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 09 Aug 2020 11:09:29 -0400
Post by J. Clarke
My impression is that the problem with the EU is not with the concept
but with the execution.
Another thing about the EU is that many of its provisions are to
the benefit of the individual people at the expense of the national
governments.

The Euro is a prime example - individuals and businesses benefit
greatly from having a common currency across such a large area. Banks lose
out on exchange fees and the split, national governments lose control over
the currency their citizens use. I was working in one country, living in
another and travelling through a third when the Euro came in - I felt the
benefit immediately from not carrying three sets of change around, from not
paying currency exchange fees and from not having my effective income vary
unpredictably with currency fluctuations.

Freedom of movement is another, people get to live and work
wherever they like which means nations have less control over who gets to
live and work in them.

Many of the complaints about Europe tend to be of the form $COUNTRY
suffers $PROBLEM because of Europe doing $THING, failing to observe that
$THING can be of benefit to people and businesses in $COUNTRY who choose
to take advantage of it.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Peter Flass
2020-08-09 17:07:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dave Garrett
Post by Dan Espen
No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive
killfile, the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily due to
the gang of incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not budge from
their apparent conviction that the name of the newsgroup was really
alt.politics.home.repair.
WE have the same problem with uk.d-i-y ...
From what I've seen, the uk groups are even worse.
A huge amount of name calling and stalking.
Must be that British humor at work, or all the posters are drunk.
No, the Brexiteers are foaming at the mouth...
A damn shame, the EU looks like a very good thing to me.
Hopefully a way of ending centuries of European conflict
and putting the EU on an even basis with the US.
Now if we could get a South American and an African union
going.
I suppose Usenet, but more important the Internet can eventually end
the curse of the Tower of Babel.
My impression is that the problem with the EU is not with the concept
but with the execution.
It seems to me they can’t decide if they’re fish or fowl.
--
Pete
Dan Espen
2020-08-09 18:50:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dave Garrett
Post by Dan Espen
No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive
killfile, the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily due to
the gang of incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not budge from
their apparent conviction that the name of the newsgroup was really
alt.politics.home.repair.
WE have the same problem with uk.d-i-y ...
From what I've seen, the uk groups are even worse.
A huge amount of name calling and stalking.
Must be that British humor at work, or all the posters are drunk.
No, the Brexiteers are foaming at the mouth...
A damn shame, the EU looks like a very good thing to me.
Hopefully a way of ending centuries of European conflict
and putting the EU on an even basis with the US.
Now if we could get a South American and an African union
going.
I suppose Usenet, but more important the Internet can eventually end
the curse of the Tower of Babel.
My impression is that the problem with the EU is not with the concept
but with the execution.
As far as I can tell, the major issue is Brexit.
I suppose they can get by without England, but
it's a major setback.
--
Dan Espen
Bob Eager
2020-08-09 19:52:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dave Garrett
Post by Dan Espen
No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive
killfile, the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily
due to the gang of incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not
budge from their apparent conviction that the name of the
newsgroup was really alt.politics.home.repair.
WE have the same problem with uk.d-i-y ...
From what I've seen, the uk groups are even worse.
A huge amount of name calling and stalking.
Must be that British humor at work, or all the posters are drunk.
No, the Brexiteers are foaming at the mouth...
A damn shame, the EU looks like a very good thing to me.
Hopefully a way of ending centuries of European conflict and putting
the EU on an even basis with the US.
Now if we could get a South American and an African union going.
I suppose Usenet, but more important the Internet can eventually end
the curse of the Tower of Babel.
My impression is that the problem with the EU is not with the concept
but with the execution.
As far as I can tell, the major issue is Brexit.
I suppose they can get by without England, but it's a major setback.
I think you mean "the UK". They might get Scotland back at some point,
though.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/whats-difference-between-
england-britain-and-uk-180959558/

NOt half as much as it is a setback for the UK, though.
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Dan Espen
2020-08-09 21:06:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dave Garrett
Post by Dan Espen
No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive
killfile, the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily
due to the gang of incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not
budge from their apparent conviction that the name of the
newsgroup was really alt.politics.home.repair.
WE have the same problem with uk.d-i-y ...
From what I've seen, the uk groups are even worse.
A huge amount of name calling and stalking.
Must be that British humor at work, or all the posters are drunk.
No, the Brexiteers are foaming at the mouth...
A damn shame, the EU looks like a very good thing to me.
Hopefully a way of ending centuries of European conflict and putting
the EU on an even basis with the US.
Now if we could get a South American and an African union going.
I suppose Usenet, but more important the Internet can eventually end
the curse of the Tower of Babel.
My impression is that the problem with the EU is not with the concept
but with the execution.
As far as I can tell, the major issue is Brexit.
I suppose they can get by without England, but it's a major setback.
I think you mean "the UK". They might get Scotland back at some point,
though.
Yeah, we really can't figure it out over here.
Post by Bob Eager
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/whats-difference-between-
england-britain-and-uk-180959558/
NOt half as much as it is a setback for the UK, though.
Actually, I know, just a momentary lapse. My age is a wonderful
excuse. Pretty soon my posts will really degenerate.

The other day in my Internet travels I happened on
a Scot, Janey Godley. Pretty funny but hard to understand.
--
Dan Espen
Bob Eager
2020-08-09 21:56:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
The other day in my Internet travels I happened on a Scot, Janey Godley.
Pretty funny but hard to understand.
Going off-thread a bit...

For want of anything better to do, I;ve been watching old episodes of fly-
on-the-wall programmes about Customs posts around the world. Mainly New
Zealand and Australia, also occasionally England.

Today I switched on and for the first time could not understand some of
the people. Republic of Ireland!
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Peter Flass
2020-08-09 22:30:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Eager
The other day in my Internet travels I happened on a Scot, Janey Godley.
Pretty funny but hard to understand.
Going off-thread a bit...
For want of anything better to do, I;ve been watching old episodes of fly-
on-the-wall programmes about Customs posts around the world. Mainly New
Zealand and Australia, also occasionally England.
Today I switched on and for the first time could not understand some of
the people. Republic of Ireland!
I always get a chuckle about shows that have subtitles for “English”
speakers. Some of them are pretty hard to understand.
--
Pete
lawrence
2020-08-10 19:48:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dan Espen
As far as I can tell, the major issue is Brexit.
I suppose they can get by without England, but it's a major setback.
I think you mean "the UK". They might get Scotland back at some point,
though.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/whats-difference-between-
england-britain-and-uk-180959558/
NOt half as much as it is a setback for the UK, though.
It's like an amputation at the knee. It's definitely hard on the body,
and it might kill you, but it's definitely going to be a bigger issue
for the foot.
Peter Flass
2020-08-10 20:05:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by lawrence
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dan Espen
As far as I can tell, the major issue is Brexit.
I suppose they can get by without England, but it's a major setback.
I think you mean "the UK". They might get Scotland back at some point,
though.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/whats-difference-between-
england-britain-and-uk-180959558/
NOt half as much as it is a setback for the UK, though.
It's like an amputation at the knee. It's definitely hard on the body,
and it might kill you, but it's definitely going to be a bigger issue
for the foot.
It’s not like they have the Empire to fall back on any more.
--
Pete
J. Clarke
2020-08-10 22:19:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 13:05:52 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by lawrence
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dan Espen
As far as I can tell, the major issue is Brexit.
I suppose they can get by without England, but it's a major setback.
I think you mean "the UK". They might get Scotland back at some point,
though.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/whats-difference-between-
england-britain-and-uk-180959558/
NOt half as much as it is a setback for the UK, though.
It's like an amputation at the knee. It's definitely hard on the body,
and it might kill you, but it's definitely going to be a bigger issue
for the foot.
It’s not like they have the Empire to fall back on any more.
And they sold most of what was left of their industry. I guess
they're going to have to nationalize it again and watch it sink.
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
2020-08-10 20:38:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 14:48:17 -0500
Post by lawrence
It's like an amputation at the knee. It's definitely hard on the body,
and it might kill you, but it's definitely going to be a bigger issue
for the foot.
Not a bad analogy, especially since, as the saw is working through
the bone, an infection has set in and spread pretty well everywhere causing
far more problems for both body and foot than the bone saw which is still
working away.

I know which side of the cut I want to be on (and I'm on it).
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Melzzzzz
2020-08-10 01:16:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dave Garrett
Post by Dan Espen
No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive
killfile, the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily due to
the gang of incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not budge from
their apparent conviction that the name of the newsgroup was really
alt.politics.home.repair.
WE have the same problem with uk.d-i-y ...
From what I've seen, the uk groups are even worse.
A huge amount of name calling and stalking.
Must be that British humor at work, or all the posters are drunk.
No, the Brexiteers are foaming at the mouth...
A damn shame, the EU looks like a very good thing to me.
Hopefully a way of ending centuries of European conflict
and putting the EU on an even basis with the US.
Now if we could get a South American and an African union
going.
I suppose Usenet, but more important the Internet can eventually end
the curse of the Tower of Babel.
My impression is that the problem with the EU is not with the concept
but with the execution.
Problem is that they became political union instead of economic union..
sure way or disaster...
--
current job title: senior software engineer
skills: c++,c,rust,go,nim,haskell...

press any key to continue or any other to quit...
U ničemu ja ne uživam kao u svom statusu INVALIDA -- Zli Zec
Svi smo svedoci - oko 3 godine intenzivne propagande je dovoljno da jedan narod poludi -- Zli Zec
Na divljem zapadu i nije bilo tako puno nasilja, upravo zato jer su svi
bili naoruzani. -- Mladen Gogala
Peter Flass
2020-08-09 17:07:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dave Garrett
Post by Dan Espen
No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive
killfile, the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily due to
the gang of incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not budge from
their apparent conviction that the name of the newsgroup was really
alt.politics.home.repair.
WE have the same problem with uk.d-i-y ...
From what I've seen, the uk groups are even worse.
A huge amount of name calling and stalking.
Must be that British humor at work, or all the posters are drunk.
No, the Brexiteers are foaming at the mouth...
A damn shame, the EU looks like a very good thing to me.
Hopefully a way of ending centuries of European conflict
and putting the EU on an even basis with the US.
Now if we could get a South American and an African union
going.
I suppose Usenet, but more important the Internet can eventually end
the curse of the Tower of Babel.
At one point I thought a closer union of English-speaking countries would
be good - of course now no one wants to have anything to do with us, we’re
an international pariah. Something like the “five eyes”: US, Canada, UK,
Australia and New Zealand?
--
Pete
Andreas Eder
2020-08-13 07:57:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
I suppose Usenet, but more important the Internet can eventually end
the curse of the Tower of Babel.
It is not a curse. It is more of a blessing.
I like the diofferent languages.

'Andreas
Dan Espen
2020-08-13 12:01:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andreas Eder
Post by Dan Espen
I suppose Usenet, but more important the Internet can eventually end
the curse of the Tower of Babel.
It is not a curse. It is more of a blessing.
I like the diofferent languages.
A blessing?

3 days later, and the only reason you can come up with that it's a
blessing is that you like different languages? I'm curious, why
do you like not being able to communicate with others? Or do you just
like the intellectual challenge of being able to learn the few languages
that you know?

The original bible story has stood for the last 2000 years as an
parable of a curse imposed on humanity. That's been pretty much
unquestioned.

There is an intelligence sharing organization called the Five Eyes
consisting of the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the UK.
These 5 countries trust each other more than they trust other
major powers like Germany and France. They all have something
in common and I don't mean their skin color.

Periodically in the USA we have the more paranoid among us wanting
to pass laws to make English the countries "official" language.

There's a huge economic cost to having to cope with all the
different languages in the world. We have instruction manuals
5 times larger than they have to be in tiny print because
they try to serve customers that can't understand a common
language. We have translators hired so that business people
and politicians can attempt to understand each other.

Great ideas in written works can't reach people unless they
are translated to other languages.

I know I won't see it in the time I have left to live
but someday we'll all understand each other a little better
and a common language will help that along, and the Internet
will contribute to that happening.
--
Dan Espen
Niklas Karlsson
2020-08-13 14:33:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
3 days later, and the only reason you can come up with that it's a
blessing is that you like different languages? I'm curious, why
do you like not being able to communicate with others? Or do you just
like the intellectual challenge of being able to learn the few languages
that you know?
Are there drawbacks to the wide variety of languages found in the world
today? Certainly.

However, a language is part of the culture using it, and reflects that
culture in various ways. Removing a language loses us this cultural
signature, essentially destroying information. I think that would be
unfortunate.

The present order of things, with English as the lingua franca (amusing,
since that means 'French language'), appears to work tolerably. Younger
people seem to have a decent command of English in lots of different
places.

Niklas
--
Not as in "I have a better offer, do what I say", but simply "I'll
resign if you don't do what I say". I didn't want them to beat a
price, I wanted them to beat the people causing problems.
-- Joe Thompson
Dan Espen
2020-08-13 14:46:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Niklas Karlsson
Post by Dan Espen
3 days later, and the only reason you can come up with that it's a
blessing is that you like different languages? I'm curious, why
do you like not being able to communicate with others? Or do you just
like the intellectual challenge of being able to learn the few languages
that you know?
Are there drawbacks to the wide variety of languages found in the world
today? Certainly.
However, a language is part of the culture using it, and reflects that
culture in various ways. Removing a language loses us this cultural
signature, essentially destroying information. I think that would be
unfortunate.
The present order of things, with English as the lingua franca (amusing,
since that means 'French language'), appears to work tolerably. Younger
people seem to have a decent command of English in lots of different
places.
Sorry, but I believe that "diversity" argument is weak
and counter productive.

Years ago, my employer did one of those diversity training
things. The speaker went on at length about the beauty of
jive talk. Showing how 3 words could express a multitude of
ideas depending on the inflection. I think it was "she be gone".
Seemed like a bunch of nonsense to me.
Speaking clearly and saying what you mean is the way to go.

If your language has a unique way of expressing an idea,
incorporate it into English (as we've done so often before).
There's no reason for anything of value to be lost.
--
Dan Espen
Dave Garland
2020-08-13 15:40:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Niklas Karlsson
Post by Dan Espen
3 days later, and the only reason you can come up with that it's a
blessing is that you like different languages? I'm curious, why
do you like not being able to communicate with others? Or do you just
like the intellectual challenge of being able to learn the few languages
that you know?
Are there drawbacks to the wide variety of languages found in the world
today? Certainly.
However, a language is part of the culture using it, and reflects that
culture in various ways. Removing a language loses us this cultural
signature, essentially destroying information. I think that would be
unfortunate.
The present order of things, with English as the lingua franca (amusing,
since that means 'French language'), appears to work tolerably. Younger
people seem to have a decent command of English in lots of different
places.
Sorry, but I believe that "diversity" argument is weak
and counter productive.
Years ago, my employer did one of those diversity training
things. The speaker went on at length about the beauty of
jive talk. Showing how 3 words could express a multitude of
ideas depending on the inflection. I think it was "she be gone".
Seemed like a bunch of nonsense to me.
Speaking clearly and saying what you mean is the way to go.
If your language has a unique way of expressing an idea,
incorporate it into English (as we've done so often before).
There's no reason for anything of value to be lost.
If your argument is for standardization, I trust you'd be ok with the
common language being Mandarin Chinese? It's the native language of
12% of the world's population (17% if you include all the various
dialects), as opposed to 5% for English.

Me, I'm too old to learn Chinese, so everybody should learn the
language I already know.
Dan Espen
2020-08-13 15:49:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Garland
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Niklas Karlsson
Post by Dan Espen
3 days later, and the only reason you can come up with that it's a
blessing is that you like different languages? I'm curious, why
do you like not being able to communicate with others? Or do you just
like the intellectual challenge of being able to learn the few languages
that you know?
Are there drawbacks to the wide variety of languages found in the world
today? Certainly.
However, a language is part of the culture using it, and reflects that
culture in various ways. Removing a language loses us this cultural
signature, essentially destroying information. I think that would be
unfortunate.
The present order of things, with English as the lingua franca (amusing,
since that means 'French language'), appears to work tolerably. Younger
people seem to have a decent command of English in lots of different
places.
Sorry, but I believe that "diversity" argument is weak
and counter productive.
Years ago, my employer did one of those diversity training
things. The speaker went on at length about the beauty of
jive talk. Showing how 3 words could express a multitude of
ideas depending on the inflection. I think it was "she be gone".
Seemed like a bunch of nonsense to me.
Speaking clearly and saying what you mean is the way to go.
If your language has a unique way of expressing an idea,
incorporate it into English (as we've done so often before).
There's no reason for anything of value to be lost.
If your argument is for standardization, I trust you'd be ok with the
common language being Mandarin Chinese? It's the native language of
12% of the world's population (17% if you include all the various
dialects), as opposed to 5% for English.
Me, I'm too old to learn Chinese, so everybody should learn the
language I already know.
I don't think that's going to happen.
First I'd want to see an phonetic alphabet come into common usage,
but if that's what it takes to lift the curse, so be it.

No, I am not trying to push English just because I speak it.
--
Dan Espen
gareth evans
2020-08-13 16:24:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
First I'd want to see an phonetic alphabet come into common usage,
Cymraeg.
Peter Flass
2020-08-13 16:53:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Dave Garland
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Niklas Karlsson
Post by Dan Espen
3 days later, and the only reason you can come up with that it's a
blessing is that you like different languages? I'm curious, why
do you like not being able to communicate with others? Or do you just
like the intellectual challenge of being able to learn the few languages
that you know?
Are there drawbacks to the wide variety of languages found in the world
today? Certainly.
However, a language is part of the culture using it, and reflects that
culture in various ways. Removing a language loses us this cultural
signature, essentially destroying information. I think that would be
unfortunate.
The present order of things, with English as the lingua franca (amusing,
since that means 'French language'), appears to work tolerably. Younger
people seem to have a decent command of English in lots of different
places.
Sorry, but I believe that "diversity" argument is weak
and counter productive.
Years ago, my employer did one of those diversity training
things. The speaker went on at length about the beauty of
jive talk. Showing how 3 words could express a multitude of
ideas depending on the inflection. I think it was "she be gone".
Seemed like a bunch of nonsense to me.
Speaking clearly and saying what you mean is the way to go.
If your language has a unique way of expressing an idea,
incorporate it into English (as we've done so often before).
There's no reason for anything of value to be lost.
If your argument is for standardization, I trust you'd be ok with the
common language being Mandarin Chinese? It's the native language of
12% of the world's population (17% if you include all the various
dialects), as opposed to 5% for English.
Me, I'm too old to learn Chinese, so everybody should learn the
language I already know.
I don't think that's going to happen.
First I'd want to see an phonetic alphabet come into common usage,
but if that's what it takes to lift the curse, so be it.
This has it’s own problems. When Turkey changed from Arabic Script to a
variant of the roman alphabet much of their literature and history
gradually became unreadable without a special effort on the part of native
Turkish speakers. Not to say it wasn’t a smart long-term move, but it
wasn’t pain-free.
--
Pete
Niklas Karlsson
2020-08-13 17:04:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Dan Espen
I don't think that's going to happen.
First I'd want to see an phonetic alphabet come into common usage,
but if that's what it takes to lift the curse, so be it.
This has it’s own problems. When Turkey changed from Arabic Script to a
variant of the roman alphabet much of their literature and history
gradually became unreadable without a special effort on the part of native
Turkish speakers. Not to say it wasn’t a smart long-term move, but it
wasn’t pain-free.
That's also a very good point. History matters.

Niklas
--
When being picked up against their will by larger creatures, cats and human
children share not only the ability to temporarily sprout extra limbs and
perform incredible acts of contortionism, but also to temporarily increase their
weight.
Peter Flass
2020-08-13 16:53:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Garland
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Niklas Karlsson
Post by Dan Espen
3 days later, and the only reason you can come up with that it's a
blessing is that you like different languages? I'm curious, why
do you like not being able to communicate with others? Or do you just
like the intellectual challenge of being able to learn the few languages
that you know?
Are there drawbacks to the wide variety of languages found in the world
today? Certainly.
However, a language is part of the culture using it, and reflects that
culture in various ways. Removing a language loses us this cultural
signature, essentially destroying information. I think that would be
unfortunate.
The present order of things, with English as the lingua franca (amusing,
since that means 'French language'), appears to work tolerably. Younger
people seem to have a decent command of English in lots of different
places.
Sorry, but I believe that "diversity" argument is weak
and counter productive.
Years ago, my employer did one of those diversity training
things. The speaker went on at length about the beauty of
jive talk. Showing how 3 words could express a multitude of
ideas depending on the inflection. I think it was "she be gone".
Seemed like a bunch of nonsense to me.
Speaking clearly and saying what you mean is the way to go.
If your language has a unique way of expressing an idea,
incorporate it into English (as we've done so often before).
There's no reason for anything of value to be lost.
If your argument is for standardization, I trust you'd be ok with the
common language being Mandarin Chinese? It's the native language of
12% of the world's population (17% if you include all the various
dialects), as opposed to 5% for English.
Me, I'm too old to learn Chinese, so everybody should learn the
language I already know.
Mandarin has a lot of native speakers, but few outside of China. The
educated elites of just about everywhere speak English (thanks, British
Empire), and it’s largely the language of science. A lot of archaeology
papers are in German or French, however.
--
Pete
Niklas Karlsson
2020-08-13 17:02:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Flass
Mandarin has a lot of native speakers, but few outside of China. The
educated elites of just about everywhere speak English (thanks, British
Empire), and it’s largely the language of science. A lot of archaeology
papers are in German or French, however.
British Empire? Yeah, I guess that contributed, but I'm inclined to
assign much more of the credit to the current American hegemony.

Here in Sweden, I think much of it can be attributed to Hollywood. We
don't dub movies if they're for an audience old enough to read, only
subtitle. I think that does quite a lot for your average Swede's ability
with English. Quite possibly more than the mandatory English subject in
school does.

My own English was mainly acquired through computer use from an early
age (I was born in 1980). Yes, translated software existed even then,
but only in a certain few cases. There wasn't much you could do without
running into English.

Niklas
--
At last, a weapon that blows up and sucks.
-- Mike Andrews
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
2020-08-13 17:50:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 13 Aug 2020 17:02:03 GMT
Post by Niklas Karlsson
Post by Peter Flass
Mandarin has a lot of native speakers, but few outside of China. The
educated elites of just about everywhere speak English (thanks, British
Empire), and it’s largely the language of science. A lot of archaeology
papers are in German or French, however.
British Empire? Yeah, I guess that contributed, but I'm inclined to
It got things started.
Post by Niklas Karlsson
assign much more of the credit to the current American hegemony.
Agreed, particularly American TV and films. Even here in Ireland
with the UK right next door you hear more Americanisms than Britishisms.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Peter Flass
2020-08-13 16:53:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Niklas Karlsson
Post by Dan Espen
3 days later, and the only reason you can come up with that it's a
blessing is that you like different languages? I'm curious, why
do you like not being able to communicate with others? Or do you just
like the intellectual challenge of being able to learn the few languages
that you know?
Are there drawbacks to the wide variety of languages found in the world
today? Certainly.
However, a language is part of the culture using it, and reflects that
culture in various ways. Removing a language loses us this cultural
signature, essentially destroying information. I think that would be
unfortunate.
The present order of things, with English as the lingua franca (amusing,
since that means 'French language'), appears to work tolerably. Younger
people seem to have a decent command of English in lots of different
places.
Sorry, but I believe that "diversity" argument is weak
and counter productive.
Years ago, my employer did one of those diversity training
things. The speaker went on at length about the beauty of
jive talk. Showing how 3 words could express a multitude of
ideas depending on the inflection. I think it was "she be gone".
Seemed like a bunch of nonsense to me.
Speaking clearly and saying what you mean is the way to go.
If your language has a unique way of expressing an idea,
incorporate it into English (as we've done so often before).
There's no reason for anything of value to be lost.
That’s apparently what “jive talk” does. The construct “x be y” apparently
expresses a continuing action, carried forward from african. (or
something like that). x is y now, and will be for the foreseeable future.
I’m not sure it’s the same syntax or something else that expresses a
habitual condition. x is often y.
--
Pete
Dan Espen
2020-08-13 17:27:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Niklas Karlsson
Post by Dan Espen
3 days later, and the only reason you can come up with that it's a
blessing is that you like different languages? I'm curious, why
do you like not being able to communicate with others? Or do you just
like the intellectual challenge of being able to learn the few languages
that you know?
Are there drawbacks to the wide variety of languages found in the world
today? Certainly.
However, a language is part of the culture using it, and reflects that
culture in various ways. Removing a language loses us this cultural
signature, essentially destroying information. I think that would be
unfortunate.
The present order of things, with English as the lingua franca (amusing,
since that means 'French language'), appears to work tolerably. Younger
people seem to have a decent command of English in lots of different
places.
Sorry, but I believe that "diversity" argument is weak
and counter productive.
Years ago, my employer did one of those diversity training
things. The speaker went on at length about the beauty of
jive talk. Showing how 3 words could express a multitude of
ideas depending on the inflection. I think it was "she be gone".
Seemed like a bunch of nonsense to me.
Speaking clearly and saying what you mean is the way to go.
If your language has a unique way of expressing an idea,
incorporate it into English (as we've done so often before).
There's no reason for anything of value to be lost.
That’s apparently what “jive talk” does. The construct “x be y” apparently
expresses a continuing action, carried forward from african. (or
something like that). x is y now, and will be for the foreseeable future.
I’m not sure it’s the same syntax or something else that expresses a
habitual condition. x is often y.
Well, the whole incident seemed bizarre to me. Here I was working in a
communications company writing specs and designing systems and this guy
was advocating a really vague form of communicating.

Not that I'm against diversity. I don't mind diverse things that are
improvements.
--
Dan Espen
Charlie Gibbs
2020-08-13 21:05:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
Sorry, but I believe that "diversity" argument is weak
and counter productive.
But it's also Politically Correct, so it's gaining a lot of
traction, even in places where it's demonstrably harmful.
Post by Dan Espen
Years ago, my employer did one of those diversity training
things. The speaker went on at length about the beauty of
jive talk. Showing how 3 words could express a multitude of
ideas depending on the inflection. I think it was "she be gone".
Seemed like a bunch of nonsense to me.
I think I heard something a while back about people trying to
get "Ebonics" established as a valid dialect. Feh.
Post by Dan Espen
Speaking clearly and saying what you mean is the way to go.
If your language has a unique way of expressing an idea,
incorporate it into English (as we've done so often before).
There's no reason for anything of value to be lost.
English has been referred to as a "kleptolect".
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <***@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
Scott Lurndal
2020-08-10 15:33:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Eager
Post by Dave Garrett
Post by Dan Espen
No, definitely not over.
Any doubt in your mind? Head over to alt.home.repair.
I gave up on alt.home.repair. Despite employing an aggressive killfile,
the signal-to-noise ratio remained abysmal, primarily due to the gang of
incurably loquacious knob-jockeys who would not budge from their
apparent conviction that the name of the newsgroup was really
alt.politics.home.repair.
WE have the same problem with uk.d-i-y ...
Which is where the most eggregious of the idiotic alt.home.repair posts
are crossposted from....

Like the guy(?) whose sole reason for existence is to post replies to
every one of Rod Speeds posts.
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
2020-08-10 16:16:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 15:33:34 GMT
Post by Scott Lurndal
Like the guy(?) whose sole reason for existence is to post replies to
every one of Rod Speeds posts.
I thought that was Rod Speed.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
gareth evans
2020-08-12 13:40:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Like the guy(?) whose sole reason for existence is to post replies to
every one of Rod Speeds posts.
Peeler?

In his futile efforts to proscribe what he thinks to be SPAM,
he has become the dominant SPAMMER.

BTW, Should you get an email about Pork Luncheon Meat,
then ignore it, for it is SPAM.
Scott Lurndal
2020-08-10 15:30:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jason Evans
Eternal September or the September that never ended is Usenet slang for a
period beginning in September 1993, the month that Internet service
provider America Online (AOL) began offering Usenet access to its many
users, overwhelming the existing culture for online forums.
Before then, Usenet was largely restricted to colleges, universities, and
other research institutions.
And most major (if upstart) computer companies like sun, oracle,
convergent technologies, sequioa, thinking machines, et alia.
Charlie Gibbs
2020-08-11 17:47:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jason Evans
If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real
and living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most
important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they
start using Usenet?
I wonder whether the question is moot. How many young people would
even care about Usenet anymore, even if they knew it existed? The
fact that Usenet is text-only is enough to drive most of them away.
"You mean, like, no pictures? No videos? Ewww... gross!"

With the exception of spammers and con artists - who will ignore all
advice anyway - the few who find their way here will generally figure
out netiquette themselves, especially if we provide pointers to things
like RFC 1855 (once they figure out what an RFC is...).
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <***@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
Peter Flass
2020-08-11 18:26:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by Jason Evans
If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real
and living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most
important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they
start using Usenet?
I wonder whether the question is moot. How many young people would
even care about Usenet anymore, even if they knew it existed? The
fact that Usenet is text-only is enough to drive most of them away.
"You mean, like, no pictures? No videos? Ewww... gross!"
That’s one of the things I most like about it. If I want pictures I can
always go get them. Let’s not even talk about (ugh) videos.
--
Pete
Niklas Karlsson
2020-08-11 18:37:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Charlie Gibbs
I wonder whether the question is moot. How many young people would
even care about Usenet anymore, even if they knew it existed? The
fact that Usenet is text-only is enough to drive most of them away.
"You mean, like, no pictures? No videos? Ewww... gross!"
That’s one of the things I most like about it. If I want pictures I can
always go get them. Let’s not even talk about (ugh) videos.
Instructional videos are very useful for some things, like how to carry
out a certain practical, physical task. But people seem to be way too
fond of them, often using them when simple text and maybe a few
screenshots/other images would do just fine.

I don't want to have to devote my full attention to a video for many
minutes if the latter is the case.

Niklas
--
One of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that, lacking
zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination of their C
programs. -- Robert Firth
J. Clarke
2020-08-11 19:46:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Niklas Karlsson
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Charlie Gibbs
I wonder whether the question is moot. How many young people would
even care about Usenet anymore, even if they knew it existed? The
fact that Usenet is text-only is enough to drive most of them away.
"You mean, like, no pictures? No videos? Ewww... gross!"
That’s one of the things I most like about it. If I want pictures I can
always go get them. Let’s not even talk about (ugh) videos.
Instructional videos are very useful for some things, like how to carry
out a certain practical, physical task. But people seem to be way too
fond of them, often using them when simple text and maybe a few
screenshots/other images would do just fine.
Yep. And they are often also too fond of themselves. Ten minutes of
some fat slob nattering, 30 seconds of him showing you how to do
something, probably wrong, and then another ten minutes of fat slob
nattering.

The ones who know how to plan out what they're going to show and just
cover the material are gold.
Post by Niklas Karlsson
I don't want to have to devote my full attention to a video for many
minutes if the latter is the case.
Niklas
Bob Eager
2020-08-11 19:58:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Yep. And they are often also too fond of themselves. Ten minutes of
some fat slob nattering, 30 seconds of him showing you how to do
something, probably wrong, and then another ten minutes of fat slob
nattering.
The ones who know how to plan out what they're going to show and just
cover the material are gold.
They all know.

They are just trying to get their 'watched minutes' up to a monetization
threshold.
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
J. Clarke
2020-08-11 22:44:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Eager
Post by J. Clarke
Yep. And they are often also too fond of themselves. Ten minutes of
some fat slob nattering, 30 seconds of him showing you how to do
something, probably wrong, and then another ten minutes of fat slob
nattering.
The ones who know how to plan out what they're going to show and just
cover the material are gold.
They all know.
They are just trying to get their 'watched minutes' up to a monetization
threshold.
Never attribute to superior business acumen that which can be
explained by stupidity.
Dan Espen
2020-08-11 20:20:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Niklas Karlsson
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Charlie Gibbs
I wonder whether the question is moot. How many young people would
even care about Usenet anymore, even if they knew it existed? The
fact that Usenet is text-only is enough to drive most of them away.
"You mean, like, no pictures? No videos? Ewww... gross!"
That’s one of the things I most like about it. If I want pictures I can
always go get them. Let’s not even talk about (ugh) videos.
Instructional videos are very useful for some things, like how to carry
out a certain practical, physical task. But people seem to be way too
fond of them, often using them when simple text and maybe a few
screenshots/other images would do just fine.
Yep. And they are often also too fond of themselves. Ten minutes of
some fat slob nattering, 30 seconds of him showing you how to do
something, probably wrong, and then another ten minutes of fat slob
nattering.
The ones who know how to plan out what they're going to show and just
cover the material are gold.
The absolute best videos on YouTube come from Andrew Camarata.
No BS, he just films what he does.
The production quality rivals the best you see on TV.
No, scratch that, way better than anything on TV.
Many are an hour long and that's way too short.

There's something for everybody amazing scenery, heavy equipment,
dogs, problem solving, humor, and inspiration.

Interestingly Andrew went to college for computer studies but
decided to do heavy equipment instead. Sort of like that guy
in office space.

First time I joined a fan club and I don't even like dogs.
I feel like I should make a pilgrimage to Saugerties.
What a beautiful part of the country.
--
Dan Espen
Questor
2020-08-12 19:23:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Niklas Karlsson
Post by Charlie Gibbs
I wonder whether the question is moot. How many young people would
even care about Usenet anymore, even if they knew it existed? The
fact that Usenet is text-only is enough to drive most of them away.
"You mean, like, no pictures? No videos? Ewww... gross!"
That's one of the things I most like about it. If I want pictures I can
always go get them. Let's not even talk about (ugh) videos.
Instructional videos are very useful for some things, like how to carry
out a certain practical, physical task. But people seem to be way too
fond of them, often using them when simple text and maybe a few
screenshots/other images would do just fine.
Yep. And they are often also too fond of themselves. Ten minutes of
some fat slob nattering, 30 seconds of him showing you how to do
something, probably wrong, and then another ten minutes of fat slob
nattering.
The ones who know how to plan out what they're going to show and just
cover the material are gold.
The absolute best videos on YouTube come from Andrew Camarata.
I highly recommend the videos of Mark Rober.

Mark Rober is a former NASA engineer whose work includes designing some of the
instrumentation for one of the Mars rovers. In addition to showcasing his
inventiveness and design skills, the videos' writing, pacing, camera work, and
editing are all excellent. Some topics include building a giant super soaker,
dropping a car onto a custom trampoline, creating a glitter bomb in response to
package thieves, trying to design a squirrel-proof bird feeder, some high-tech
Halloween costumes, and explaining how the physics behind seemingly simple
carnival games of skill make them so hard to beat. His data-driven approach is
interesting, entertaining, and at times informative, and he doesn't get bogged
down in the details.

http://www.youtube.com/c/MarkRober/videos
Dan Espen
2020-08-12 21:37:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Questor
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Niklas Karlsson
Post by Charlie Gibbs
I wonder whether the question is moot. How many young people would
even care about Usenet anymore, even if they knew it existed? The
fact that Usenet is text-only is enough to drive most of them away.
"You mean, like, no pictures? No videos? Ewww... gross!"
That's one of the things I most like about it. If I want pictures I can
always go get them. Let's not even talk about (ugh) videos.
Instructional videos are very useful for some things, like how to carry
out a certain practical, physical task. But people seem to be way too
fond of them, often using them when simple text and maybe a few
screenshots/other images would do just fine.
Yep. And they are often also too fond of themselves. Ten minutes of
some fat slob nattering, 30 seconds of him showing you how to do
something, probably wrong, and then another ten minutes of fat slob
nattering.
The ones who know how to plan out what they're going to show and just
cover the material are gold.
The absolute best videos on YouTube come from Andrew Camarata.
I highly recommend the videos of Mark Rober.
Mark Rober is a former NASA engineer whose work includes designing some of the
instrumentation for one of the Mars rovers. In addition to showcasing his
inventiveness and design skills, the videos' writing, pacing, camera work, and
editing are all excellent. Some topics include building a giant super soaker,
dropping a car onto a custom trampoline, creating a glitter bomb in response to
package thieves, trying to design a squirrel-proof bird feeder, some high-tech
Halloween costumes, and explaining how the physics behind seemingly simple
carnival games of skill make them so hard to beat. His data-driven approach is
interesting, entertaining, and at times informative, and he doesn't get bogged
down in the details.
http://www.youtube.com/c/MarkRober/videos
Hmm, watched "Does Farting Make You Weigh Less?".
I did not use Google to check the density or air vs methane.
If I had I would have guessed no, instead I guessed yes.
I figured they were close.

I also figured there's a certain amount of moisture which would be a lot
more dense than air. I also figured the fart inside your body is under pressure.
Mark didn't consider either of these factors.

The fart is going to be at 98F. Mark didn't mention air temperature or
altitude at all.

Since air density is 1.2 kg/m^3 and methane is .67 kg/m^3 I'm guessing
he's right.

So, did not subscribe. A bit too simple minded for me.

Another guy I like is Thoisoi2 who does chemistry.
Chemistry for grownups. He did one on iodine a while back.
Before that, I'd never seen iodine in it's metallic state.
--
Dan Espen
Niklas Karlsson
2020-08-11 21:34:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Niklas Karlsson
Instructional videos are very useful for some things, like how to carry
out a certain practical, physical task. But people seem to be way too
fond of them, often using them when simple text and maybe a few
screenshots/other images would do just fine.
Yep. And they are often also too fond of themselves. Ten minutes of
some fat slob nattering, 30 seconds of him showing you how to do
something, probably wrong, and then another ten minutes of fat slob
nattering.
The ones who know how to plan out what they're going to show and just
cover the material are gold.
Exactly! *applause*

Niklas
--
"... I've seen Sun monitors on fire off the side of the multimedia lab.
I've seen NTU lights glitter in the dark near the Mail Gate.
All these things will be lost in time, like the root partition last week.
Time to die...". - Peter Gutmann in alt.sysadmin.recovery
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
2020-08-11 18:56:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 11:26:44 -0700
Post by Peter Flass
Let’s not even talk about (ugh) videos.
In today's video we're going to talk about how to do $Y with $X
<I know that's why I selected it> $X is an amazing thing one of the best of
it's kind for several <and on and on and on and on ... with pictures and
sound effects - will you STFU and get to the point>. However it suffers
from $Y which results in <and on and on and on and on ... with animations
and sound effects ... please will you STFU and get to the point>. To fix it
you simply do this <2 seconds of blurred video with the most difficult bits
that you're stuck on already done ... OH FFS! I waited for *this*>. Thank
you for watching you can find more of my amazingly useless done>videos at
https://... <not on your nelly>.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Niklas Karlsson
2020-08-11 19:13:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
In today's video we're going to talk about how to do $Y with $X
<I know that's why I selected it> $X is an amazing thing one of the best of
it's kind for several <and on and on and on and on ... with pictures and
sound effects - will you STFU and get to the point>. However it suffers
from $Y which results in <and on and on and on and on ... with animations
and sound effects ... please will you STFU and get to the point>. To fix it
you simply do this <2 seconds of blurred video with the most difficult bits
that you're stuck on already done ... OH FFS! I waited for *this*>. Thank
you for watching you can find more of my amazingly useless done>videos at
https://... <not on your nelly>.
Sing it, brother!

Niklas
--
"Having major planets disappear is always a bad sign." - Jim Blinn
Charlie Gibbs
2020-08-11 22:53:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 11:26:44 -0700
Post by Peter Flass
Let’s not even talk about (ugh) videos.
In today's video we're going to talk about how to do $Y with $X
<I know that's why I selected it> $X is an amazing thing one of the best of
it's kind for several <and on and on and on and on ... with pictures and
sound effects - will you STFU and get to the point>. However it suffers
from $Y which results in <and on and on and on and on ... with animations
and sound effects ... please will you STFU and get to the point>. To fix it
you simply do this <2 seconds of blurred video with the most difficult bits
that you're stuck on already done ... OH FFS! I waited for *this*>. Thank
you for watching you can find more of my amazingly useless done>videos at
https://... <not on your nelly>.
Hear, hear. That's why I automatically skip over any YouTube references
when I'm trying to find out how to do $Y with $X. A concise textual
description is _so_ much faster than being forced to sit through a
long-winded pseudo-explanation (plus YouTube's ads at the beginning,
and increasingly in the middle as well).
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <***@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
J. Clarke
2020-08-11 23:17:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 11:26:44 -0700
Post by Peter Flass
Let’s not even talk about (ugh) videos.
In today's video we're going to talk about how to do $Y with $X
<I know that's why I selected it> $X is an amazing thing one of the best of
it's kind for several <and on and on and on and on ... with pictures and
sound effects - will you STFU and get to the point>. However it suffers
from $Y which results in <and on and on and on and on ... with animations
and sound effects ... please will you STFU and get to the point>. To fix it
you simply do this <2 seconds of blurred video with the most difficult bits
that you're stuck on already done ... OH FFS! I waited for *this*>. Thank
you for watching you can find more of my amazingly useless done>videos at
https://... <not on your nelly>.
Hear, hear. That's why I automatically skip over any YouTube references
when I'm trying to find out how to do $Y with $X. A concise textual
description is _so_ much faster than being forced to sit through a
long-winded pseudo-explanation (plus YouTube's ads at the beginning,
and increasingly in the middle as well).
Yep. I remember a youtube video which took half an hour explaining
how to get a stuck brake rotor off a Jeep. The magic method? Hit it
_hard_ with a Big Friendly Hammer.
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-08-12 07:01:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by Jason Evans
If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real
and living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most
important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they
start using Usenet?
I wonder whether the question is moot. How many young people would
even care about Usenet anymore, even if they knew it existed? The
fact that Usenet is text-only is enough to drive most of them away.
"You mean, like, no pictures? No videos? Ewww... gross!"
That’s one of the things I most like about it. If I want pictures I
can
always go get them. Let’s not even talk about (ugh) videos.
Or ASCII v UTF!
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Jason Evans
2020-08-11 18:39:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I wonder whether the question is moot. How many young people would even
care about Usenet anymore, even if they knew it existed? The fact that
Usenet is text-only is enough to drive most of them away. "You mean,
like, no pictures? No videos? Ewww... gross!"
That depends on what you mean by "young people". Do you mean the people
who make Tiktok videos and buy Apple products because they are fashion
accessories or do you mean the young STEM enthusiasts who actually care
about technology. *No, they are not the same*.

For the former, no Usenet is not for them.

For the latter, it could be. The attraction to a form of communication
that isn't tied to a single corporation could be quite interesting. When
I write about introducing people to Usenet, this is the group that I am
talking about.

I also have no desire to tell people how to pirate crap from
alt.binaries.* That's where most of the users are because they have no
idea that Usenet is anything but that.

JE
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
2020-08-11 19:28:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 18:39:47 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Jason Evans
For the latter, it could be. The attraction to a form of communication
that isn't tied to a single corporation could be quite interesting. When
I write about introducing people to Usenet, this is the group that I am
talking about.
Pretty much the group that populated USENET when it was new, shiny
and seriously limited in bandwidth.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-08-12 07:12:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 19:28:16 GMT, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 18:39:47 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Jason Evans
For the latter, it could be. The attraction to a form of
communication that isn't tied to a single corporation could be quite
interesting. When I write about introducing people to Usenet, this is
the group that I am talking about.
Pretty much the group that populated USENET when it was new, shiny
and seriously limited in bandwidth.
Usenet needs marketing to the twitterati, being text only. Oh noes, what
have I done! It's Eternal September all over again!
</Greg Mitchell>


--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Charlie Gibbs
2020-08-11 22:53:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jason Evans
I wonder whether the question is moot. How many young people would even
care about Usenet anymore, even if they knew it existed? The fact that
Usenet is text-only is enough to drive most of them away. "You mean,
like, no pictures? No videos? Ewww... gross!"
That depends on what you mean by "young people". Do you mean the people
who make Tiktok videos and buy Apple products because they are fashion
accessories or do you mean the young STEM enthusiasts who actually care
about technology. *No, they are not the same*.
For the former, no Usenet is not for them.
Indeed, they're the ones I'm referring to. Unfortunately, they seem to be
an overwhelming majority. Fortunately, they're repelled by Usenet because
it's not shiny.
Post by Jason Evans
For the latter, it could be. The attraction to a form of communication
that isn't tied to a single corporation could be quite interesting. When
I write about introducing people to Usenet, this is the group that I am
talking about.
That's a group worth pursuing, small as they may be. And it's not just
the absence of our favourite monopolies that Usenet offers, but also the
potential for concise, well-written text messages. I hate wading through
unnecessary cruft, and video just makes it a thousand times worse.
("A picture is worth...")
Post by Jason Evans
I also have no desire to tell people how to pirate crap from
alt.binaries.* That's where most of the users are because they have no
idea that Usenet is anything but that.
Their ignorance is our bliss.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <***@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
Dan Espen
2020-08-11 19:06:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by Jason Evans
If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real
and living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most
important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they
start using Usenet?
I wonder whether the question is moot. How many young people would
even care about Usenet anymore, even if they knew it existed? The
fact that Usenet is text-only is enough to drive most of them away.
"You mean, like, no pictures? No videos? Ewww... gross!"
With the exception of spammers and con artists - who will ignore all
advice anyway - the few who find their way here will generally figure
out netiquette themselves, especially if we provide pointers to things
like RFC 1855 (once they figure out what an RFC is...).
Actually Usenet allows html and images. By choice it's forbidden
in most groups.

Oh, yeah, there was that problem of stolen media being posted to Usenet
that caused most ISPs to run away from Usenet.
--
Dan Espen
Nomen Nescio
2020-08-11 23:35:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
Oh, yeah, there was that problem of stolen media being posted to Usenet
that caused most ISPs to run away from Usenet.
That was not the real reason. Real reason was that binary Usenet was
getting too big and ISPs choices were to either increase the price or
remove service offering for good. When the State of New York opened an
investigation on child pornographers who used Usenet, many ISPs seen it
as opportunity to get rid of the service.
Peter Flass
2020-08-12 00:29:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by Jason Evans
If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real
and living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most
important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they
start using Usenet?
I wonder whether the question is moot. How many young people would
even care about Usenet anymore, even if they knew it existed? The
fact that Usenet is text-only is enough to drive most of them away.
"You mean, like, no pictures? No videos? Ewww... gross!"
With the exception of spammers and con artists - who will ignore all
advice anyway - the few who find their way here will generally figure
out netiquette themselves, especially if we provide pointers to things
like RFC 1855 (once they figure out what an RFC is...).
Actually Usenet allows html and images. By choice it's forbidden
in most groups.
Oh, yeah, there was that problem of stolen media being posted to Usenet
that caused most ISPs to run away from Usenet.
They’re not legally responsible for user-posted content.
--
Pete
J. Clarke
2020-08-12 00:30:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 17:29:01 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by Jason Evans
If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real
and living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most
important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they
start using Usenet?
I wonder whether the question is moot. How many young people would
even care about Usenet anymore, even if they knew it existed? The
fact that Usenet is text-only is enough to drive most of them away.
"You mean, like, no pictures? No videos? Ewww... gross!"
With the exception of spammers and con artists - who will ignore all
advice anyway - the few who find their way here will generally figure
out netiquette themselves, especially if we provide pointers to things
like RFC 1855 (once they figure out what an RFC is...).
Actually Usenet allows html and images. By choice it's forbidden
in most groups.
Oh, yeah, there was that problem of stolen media being posted to Usenet
that caused most ISPs to run away from Usenet.
They’re not legally responsible for user-posted content.
It costs time and money to convice a judge of that.
Dan Espen
2020-08-12 01:44:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by Jason Evans
If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real
and living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most
important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they
start using Usenet?
I wonder whether the question is moot. How many young people would
even care about Usenet anymore, even if they knew it existed? The
fact that Usenet is text-only is enough to drive most of them away.
"You mean, like, no pictures? No videos? Ewww... gross!"
With the exception of spammers and con artists - who will ignore all
advice anyway - the few who find their way here will generally figure
out netiquette themselves, especially if we provide pointers to things
like RFC 1855 (once they figure out what an RFC is...).
Actually Usenet allows html and images. By choice it's forbidden
in most groups.
Oh, yeah, there was that problem of stolen media being posted to Usenet
that caused most ISPs to run away from Usenet.
They’re not legally responsible for user-posted content.
Well, I remember some AG promising to investigate and the next thing I
knew my ISP dropped Usenet.
--
Dan Espen
J. Clarke
2020-08-12 01:50:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by Jason Evans
If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real
and living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most
important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they
start using Usenet?
I wonder whether the question is moot. How many young people would
even care about Usenet anymore, even if they knew it existed? The
fact that Usenet is text-only is enough to drive most of them away.
"You mean, like, no pictures? No videos? Ewww... gross!"
With the exception of spammers and con artists - who will ignore all
advice anyway - the few who find their way here will generally figure
out netiquette themselves, especially if we provide pointers to things
like RFC 1855 (once they figure out what an RFC is...).
Actually Usenet allows html and images. By choice it's forbidden
in most groups.
Oh, yeah, there was that problem of stolen media being posted to Usenet
that caused most ISPs to run away from Usenet.
They’re not legally responsible for user-posted content.
Well, I remember some AG promising to investigate and the next thing I
knew my ISP dropped Usenet.
In the US you can sue anybody for anything. That doesn't mean that
you'll win, but they still have to put up a defense. If you're sueing
them over something that isn't making enough money for them to pay the
cost of defending it, they'll drop it just to avoid the hassle.

This is one of the things wrong with the US--the courts should be the
last resort, not the first one.
Dan Espen
2020-08-12 10:50:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by Jason Evans
If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real
and living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most
important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they
start using Usenet?
I wonder whether the question is moot. How many young people would
even care about Usenet anymore, even if they knew it existed? The
fact that Usenet is text-only is enough to drive most of them away.
"You mean, like, no pictures? No videos? Ewww... gross!"
With the exception of spammers and con artists - who will ignore all
advice anyway - the few who find their way here will generally figure
out netiquette themselves, especially if we provide pointers to things
like RFC 1855 (once they figure out what an RFC is...).
Actually Usenet allows html and images. By choice it's forbidden
in most groups.
Oh, yeah, there was that problem of stolen media being posted to Usenet
that caused most ISPs to run away from Usenet.
They’re not legally responsible for user-posted content.
Well, I remember some AG promising to investigate and the next thing I
knew my ISP dropped Usenet.
In the US you can sue anybody for anything. That doesn't mean that
you'll win, but they still have to put up a defense. If you're sueing
them over something that isn't making enough money for them to pay the
cost of defending it, they'll drop it just to avoid the hassle.
This is one of the things wrong with the US--the courts should be the
last resort, not the first one.
At the time I remember it was pretty damn easy to get a copy of a movie
just after it was released from the binary groups.

I don't know enough about the court system to have a strong opinion.
I've heard that in some states if you bring a frivolous suit you can
be liable for court costs.

Maybe court procedures could be simplified to some kind of arbitration
where lawyers would not be involved. I guess someone would still have
to be paid for the court time.
--
Dan Espen
Charlie Gibbs
2020-08-12 18:02:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
In the US you can sue anybody for anything. That doesn't mean that
you'll win, but they still have to put up a defense. If you're sueing
them over something that isn't making enough money for them to pay the
cost of defending it, they'll drop it just to avoid the hassle.
There's a variation of this known as SLAPP:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_public_participation
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <***@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
gareth evans
2020-08-12 13:50:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Flass
They’re not legally responsible for user-posted content.
Not sure that's the way of things today, with organisations
such as Facebook being brought to account because of user-posted
material.

But, yes, I agree, the postal services are not reponsible for
the contents of what they carry and that same principle should be
extended to ISPs.
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
2020-08-12 14:56:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:50:46 +0100
Post by gareth evans
Post by Peter Flass
They’re not legally responsible for user-posted content.
But, yes, I agree, the postal services are not reponsible for
the contents of what they carry and that same principle should be
extended to ISPs.
ISPs have always claimed 'common carrier' status and declined any
responsibility for the actions of their users, which in the days of
dial-up ISPs hosting small websites, mail lists and USENET for their users
was sensible. What is going on now is that this is being challenged by cases
being brought against the big social media companies. As I see it their
trouble is going to be that they are *already* filtering and blocking
people and imposing conditions on content after the content has already
been published.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Jorgen Grahn
2020-08-12 15:26:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:50:46 +0100
Post by gareth evans
Post by Peter Flass
They’re not legally responsible for user-posted content.
But, yes, I agree, the postal services are not reponsible for
the contents of what they carry and that same principle should be
extended to ISPs.
ISPs have always claimed 'common carrier' status and declined any
responsibility for the actions of their users, which in the days of
dial-up ISPs hosting small websites, mail lists and USENET for their users
was sensible. What is going on now is that this is being challenged by cases
being brought against the big social media companies. As I see it their
trouble is going to be that they are *already* filtering and blocking
people and imposing conditions on content after the content has already
been published.
If I were Facebook or Google, I would be secretly delighted by such
responsibilities: it must be hard for a small actor today to afford
the censorship, either software filters or human censors.

If Usenet somehow became more popular and useful again, someone would
come along and crush it.

/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Jason Evans
2020-08-12 15:41:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jorgen Grahn
If Usenet somehow became more popular and useful again, someone would
come along and crush it.
They could take the big backbone servers offline whose entire business
model is providing a way to download pirated material and calling it
Usenet. They could possibly even find everyone that hosts smaller text-
only servers though that would be pretty difficult.

When you read about the early days, Usenet at its true core was always
about discussion. All you need are 2 or more servers peering and talking
NNTP to each other and you have a new Usenet.

__
JE
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
2020-08-12 16:47:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 12 Aug 2020 15:26:32 GMT
Post by Jorgen Grahn
If Usenet somehow became more popular and useful again, someone would
come along and crush it.
USENET was always hard to crush, as long as there are people
running servers and exchanging feeds USENET is running. I keep thinking it
would be a good thing to do to set one up here (text only of course).
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
lawrence
2020-08-12 19:59:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Flass
They’re not legally responsible for user-posted content.
Not *now*.

There was a time before Section 230.

--
echo "***@abaluon.abaom" | sed -e 's/aba/c/g'
Nomen Nescio
2020-08-11 23:20:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by Jason Evans
If the Eternal September is over and we care about Usenet as a real
and living form of communication over the Internet, what are the most
important things that we want newbies (and oldies) to know when they
start using Usenet?
I wonder whether the question is moot. How many young people would
even care about Usenet anymore, even if they knew it existed? The
fact that Usenet is text-only is enough to drive most of them away.
"You mean, like, no pictures? No videos? Ewww... gross!"
Retro is trendy nowadays.
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