Discussion:
The Fall Of OS/2
(too old to reply)
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-10-06 00:31:06 UTC
Permalink
I always thought the main reason OS/2 failed was IBM wasted its time
trying to fulfil its promise, made when it first brought out the PC AT,
that it would one day bring out an OS that would make use of the
protected-mode features of the 286 chip. But by the time OS/2 came out,
people were buying 386-based machines in droves, and nobody really cared
about making the most out of aging 286-based ones any more.

But IBM made far more missteps than that. Even when it finally made OS/2
into a 32-bit OS, it still managed to screw up the marketing, climaxing in
the total disaster that was the “OS/2 Warp” branding.

Good review of the whole sorry tale here

Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2024-10-06 02:47:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
I always thought the main reason OS/2 failed was IBM wasted its time
trying to fulfil its promise, made when it first brought out the PC AT,
that it would one day bring out an OS that would make use of the
protected-mode features of the 286 chip. But by the time OS/2 came out,
people were buying 386-based machines in droves, and nobody really cared
about making the most out of aging 286-based ones any more.
But IBM made far more missteps than that. Even when it finally made OS/2
into a 32-bit OS, it still managed to screw up the marketing, climaxing in
the total disaster that was the “OS/2 Warp” branding.
Good review of the whole sorry tale here
http://youtu.be/rAMT187GWd4
There was certainly some uptake in the non-consumer arena. I recall
driving up to a Bank Of America ATM which was rebooting after a thunderstorm
and being a bit surprised that it ws OS/2 loading.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-10-06 03:27:23 UTC
Permalink
I recall driving up to a Bank Of America ATM which was rebooting after a
thunderstorm and being a bit surprised that it ws OS/2 loading.
Yes, it did find a niche in ATMs for some years.
Chris Ahlstrom
2024-10-06 10:55:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
I recall driving up to a Bank Of America ATM which was rebooting after a
thunderstorm and being a bit surprised that it ws OS/2 loading.
Yes, it did find a niche in ATMs for some years.
I bought a copy of OS/2 Warp and liked it, though I ended up not doing much
with it.
--
I wish you were a Scotch on the rocks.
Peter Flass
2024-10-06 22:58:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Ahlstrom
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
I recall driving up to a Bank Of America ATM which was rebooting after a
thunderstorm and being a bit surprised that it ws OS/2 loading.
Yes, it did find a niche in ATMs for some years.
I bought a copy of OS/2 Warp and liked it, though I ended up not doing much
with it.
That’s why I never bothered with windows. I stuck with OS/2 as long as I
could (and longer than I should have) and then went to Linux without ever
having to work with win-crap.
--
Pete
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-10-06 23:24:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Flass
That’s why I never bothered with windows. I stuck with OS/2 as long as I
could (and longer than I should have) and then went to Linux without
ever having to work with win-crap.
In the Macintosh world, some went to BeOS. One notable example was John
Norstad, legendary creator of the early “Disinfectant” antivirus. I
remember a lot of us Mac loyalists felt conflicted when he announced he
was making the platform move.
Bob Martin
2024-10-07 04:16:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Ahlstrom
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
I recall driving up to a Bank Of America ATM which was rebooting after a
thunderstorm and being a bit surprised that it ws OS/2 loading.
Yes, it did find a niche in ATMs for some years.
I bought a copy of OS/2 Warp and liked it, though I ended up not doing much
with it.
That's why I never bothered with windows. I stuck with OS/2 as long as I
could (and longer than I should have) and then went to Linux without ever
having to work with win-crap.
Same here.

OS/2 fell victim to Microsoft's dirty tricks.
It was better than anything from MS.
OrangeFish
2024-10-07 14:47:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Ahlstrom
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
I recall driving up to a Bank Of America ATM which was rebooting after a
thunderstorm and being a bit surprised that it ws OS/2 loading.
Yes, it did find a niche in ATMs for some years.
I bought a copy of OS/2 Warp and liked it, though I ended up not doing much
with it.
At one company, we were selling PC-cards (often called PCMCIA cards) and
writing DOS device drivers for them. Device drivers often crashed and
debugging was primitive then. We used the virtual DOS-boxes built into
OS/2. When one crashed, we just opened up another one and continued.
With Windows (and even the WNT at the time), a crash would take down the
entire PC and sometimes even necessitated reinstallation.

OF
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-10-07 20:37:14 UTC
Permalink
We used the virtual DOS-boxes built into OS/2.
If this was using the “Virtual-86” mode in the 386 and later processors,
Windows would have had that first.
OrangeFish
2024-10-08 17:08:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
We used the virtual DOS-boxes built into OS/2.
If this was using the “Virtual-86” mode in the 386 and later processors,
Windows would have had that first.
Regardless, the Windows version crashed the entire PC; the OS/2 version
only took down the DOS box and allowed work to continue easily.

OF
Bob Eager
2024-10-08 20:25:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by OrangeFish
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
We used the virtual DOS-boxes built into OS/2.
If this was using the “Virtual-86” mode in the 386 and later processors,
Windows would have had that first.
Regardless, the Windows version crashed the entire PC; the OS/2 version
only took down the DOS box and allowed work to continue easily.
As usual, Lawrence is talking rubbish (I only saw this secondhand as I
have him killfiled).

The OS/2 DOS implementation was *much* more complete. You could even boot
any version of DOS that you cared to install. I generally ran PC DOS 7.
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Dave Yeo
2024-10-09 02:45:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Eager
Post by OrangeFish
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
We used the virtual DOS-boxes built into OS/2.
If this was using the “Virtual-86” mode in the 386 and later processors,
Windows would have had that first.
Regardless, the Windows version crashed the entire PC; the OS/2 version
only took down the DOS box and allowed work to continue easily.
As usual, Lawrence is talking rubbish (I only saw this secondhand as I
have him killfiled).
The OS/2 DOS implementation was *much* more complete. You could even boot
any version of DOS that you cared to install. I generally ran PC DOS 7.
It also ran in RING 2, so most device drivers would also work
Dave
Dave Yeo
2024-10-06 04:03:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
There was certainly some uptake in the non-consumer arena. I recall
driving up to a Bank Of America ATM which was rebooting after a thunderstorm
and being a bit surprised that it ws OS/2 loading.
There's still enough industrial use that there's a small private
company, Arca Noae, supporting OS/2 well enough that it may install on
modern hardware with the important stuff working.
Dave
Dave Yeo
2024-10-06 03:57:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
I always thought the main reason OS/2 failed was IBM wasted its time
trying to fulfil its promise, made when it first brought out the PC AT,
that it would one day bring out an OS that would make use of the
protected-mode features of the 286 chip. But by the time OS/2 came out,
people were buying 386-based machines in droves, and nobody really cared
about making the most out of aging 286-based ones any more.
Yes, that was one of the errors IBM made. Back then IBM tried to keep
its promises and 286 support was promised.
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
But IBM made far more missteps than that. Even when it finally made OS/2
into a 32-bit OS, it still managed to screw up the marketing, climaxing in
the total disaster that was the “OS/2 Warp” branding.
I always thought the branding was fairly good besides the promises of a
good experience with 4MB of ram. It really was a better DOS then DOS and
a better Windows then Windows, at least until MS sabotaged WinOS2. Just
having a better file system at the time was enough to improve things
enough to make that "better then" true.
It does take good hardware, even now, though as often as not it is
firmware such as the ACPI tables.
Still, it was well enough designed that today you can buy a decent
computer and there's a good chance that OS/2, or rather the OEM ArcaOS,
will install. Potential problems are mostly related to lack of 32 bit
support. Frame buffer needs to be below 4GB. PCI space has expanded to
the point that there's not enough address space below 4GB to run recent
software.
I've yet to find a graphical shell that works as well as the
WORKPLACESHELL, though it's age does show and it did have its flaws like
only one input queue.
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Good review of the whole sorry tale here
http://youtu.be/rAMT187GWd4
Have to watch when the networks not so busy, crappy LTE connection here.
Dave,
posting from SeaMonkey on OS/2
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-10-06 13:40:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
the total disaster that was the “OS/2 Warp” branding.
I always thought the branding was fairly good ...
The problem was the use of that word “Warp”. They were clearly thinking in
terms of “Warp speed”, Star Trek style. Only trouble was, their legal
department never cleared this use with Paramount, the owners of the Star
Trek IP.

IBM kept the use of the word (having invested too much in its use
already), but then tried to interpret it in a more convoluted way to avoid
any overt reference to Star Trek, resulting in a marketing message that
pretty much lost any sense of coherency.

That’s what I mean by “total disaster”.
I've yet to find a graphical shell that works as well as the
WORKPLACESHELL ...
Anything would work better than that. Try some of the *nix GUIs, of which
there are a wide range to choose from.
Dave Yeo
2024-10-06 21:16:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Dave Yeo
I've yet to find a graphical shell that works as well as the
WORKPLACESHELL ...
Anything would work better than that. Try some of the *nix GUIs, of which
there are a wide range to choose from.
They're all pretty shitty, can't even remember where a window was and
its size. All use different keyboard accelerators. Does Alt-F4 close the
window or do something else?
Really it is what you're used to.
Dave
Dave
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-10-06 21:31:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Dave Yeo
I've yet to find a graphical shell that works as well as the
WORKPLACESHELL ...
Anything would work better than that. Try some of the *nix GUIs, of
which there are a wide range to choose from.
They're all pretty shitty ...
Try the customizable ones. You can set them up to work how you like.

If that still isn’t enough, why not write your own? That’s how all the
existing ones came about.
John Ames
2024-10-07 16:35:33 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 6 Oct 2024 21:31:41 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Try the customizable ones. You can set them up to work how you like.
Sure can! ...and then run into the issue that none of your applications
pull from the same config file as the window manager/file manager, some
of them aren't customizable at all, some of them allow customization of
everything but that *one* thing that just drives you up the wall, Qt
applications don't look or act like GTK2 applications don't look or act
like GTK3 applications, the *one* utility in the repository that does
some critical thing you need is still a Godforsaken Motif application...

Unix! The Balkan peninsula of operating systems!
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
If that still isn’t enough, why not write your own? That’s how all
the existing ones came about.
Absolutely! That's a thing I want to do, instead of any of the things I
actually wanted to do!

As the man said: free, as long as your time has no value...
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-10-07 20:41:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Ames
On Sun, 6 Oct 2024 21:31:41 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Try the customizable ones. You can set them up to work how you like.
Sure can! ...and then run into the issue that none of your applications
pull from the same config file as the window manager/file manager, some
of them aren't customizable at all ...
The freedesktop.org standards are supposed by all the major GUI desktops.
Of course they each have their own theming system and plugins etc.
Post by John Ames
... Qt applications don't look or act like GTK2 applications don't look
or act like GTK3 applications, the *one* utility in the repository that
does some critical thing you need is still a Godforsaken Motif
application...
I never understood why that was such a big deal. I’ve used so many GUIs
over the years/decades that switching between different ones is really not
an issue. They all pretty much behave the same anyway, so what if the
window title bar is a slightly different shape, and the icons have
different colours? A computer is for getting work done, I’m not one of
those wasting hours trying to make things look pretty.
Post by John Ames
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
If that still isn’t enough, why not write your own? That’s how all the
existing ones came about.
Absolutely! That's a thing I want to do, instead of any of the things I
actually wanted to do!
As the man said: free, as long as your time has no value...
Think about the value of the time of those who wrote the things you are
using for free ...
John Ames
2024-10-07 21:32:04 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 7 Oct 2024 20:41:05 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
The freedesktop.org standards are supposed by all the major GUI
desktops. Of course they each have their own theming system and
plugins etc.
"Supposed" is an apt typo here.
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
I never understood why that was such a big deal. I’ve used so many
GUIs over the years/decades that switching between different ones is
really not an issue. They all pretty much behave the same anyway, so
what if the window title bar is a slightly different shape, and the
icons have different colours? A computer is for getting work done,
I’m not one of those wasting hours trying to make things look pretty.
Well, it's distracting having to constantly switch mental contexts to
adapt to whichever of 3+ different look-and-feel variations the program
I'm currently using has decided to present me with, but that's a fairly
minor annoyance. Much more annoying are all the subtle ways it screws
with my workflow: does Alt tapped by itself active the menu bar Windows-
style (as in Qt,) or does it require Alt plus an accelerator key (GTK?)
Does the file-select/save dialog default to the last active document
directory (some Qt/GTK2 applications,) the home directory (other Qt/
GTK2 applications,) or some phantom neverland where you can't save
anything (GTK3?) Does type-ahead in file-manager windows/file dialogs
quick-select between files in the current directory, or start a search
of all subdirectories?

There's a million permutations of all these subtle inconsistencies, and
while any given answer to each question may be valid (except the ones
GTK3 chooses, which are without fail stupid and counterproductive,)
constantly having to switch on the fly between them makes it impossible
to build up any kind of consistent workflow; the fact that I keep
having to think about how this or that application does things on a
very basic level means I can never reach the state where I can stop
*thinking* and just *work,* free of distraction.
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Think about the value of the time of those who wrote the things you
are using for free ...
When I think about the people who made decisions the consequence of
which is software that annoys me and gets in my way, my primary emotion
is not one of gratitude.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-10-07 21:44:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Ames
On Mon, 7 Oct 2024 20:41:05 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Think about the value of the time of those who wrote the things you are
using for free ...
When I think about the people who made decisions the consequence of
which is software that annoys me and gets in my way, my primary emotion
is not one of gratitude.
You are not forced to use the software they have created. You are free to
use something else, even go back to Microsoft and Apple if you want.
John Ames
2024-10-07 22:19:12 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 7 Oct 2024 21:44:16 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
You are not forced to use the software they have created. You are
free to use something else, even go back to Microsoft and Apple if
you want.
So let me see if I can follow the argument here:

People: "I wish things were more like this thing."
Lawrence: "Try these other things, instead!"
People: "Have done, they sucked."
Lawrence: "You can tweak them to be more like what you want!"
People: "You frequently can't, at least not consistently."
Lawrence: "I don't get why consistency is such a big deal to you!"
People: "Here's a brief rundown on why we care about that."
Lawrence: "You should really be more grateful for the thing you don't
like, can't make suit your preferences, and find frustratingly
inconsistent!"
People: "Why?"
Lawrence: "I mean, it's not like someone's *forcing* you to use it!"
People: "You were literally *just telling us* to try it."
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-10-08 02:41:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Ames
"You frequently can't, at least not consistently."
Of course you can. As a last resort, you can UTSL.
Post by John Ames
Lawrence: "I mean, it's not like someone's *forcing* you to use it!"
People: "You were literally *just telling us* to try it."
No, I was just offering suggestions. I can’t order you to do anything, can
I? Are you prone to just doing what people say?
John Ames
2024-10-08 16:59:34 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 8 Oct 2024 02:41:08 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Of course you can. As a last resort, you can UTSL.
The fact that you *can* do that is certainly a Good Thing. The fact
that so many freenix advocates see it as a catch-all defense against
criticsm of pervasive usability issues is a handy microcosm of the
reasons why freenix still struggles to gain mainstream acceptance, no
matter how increasingly janky and anti-user the commercial options get.
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
No, I was just offering suggestions. I can’t order you to do
anything, can I? Are you prone to just doing what people say?
Of course not - but proferring a suggested alternative, consistently
pushing back on any criticism of it, and then acting as if the critics
are just being arbitrarily hostile to the subject of critique out of
nowhere (as opposed to engaging in a germane discussion you yourself
started) is peak absurdity.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-10-08 23:12:05 UTC
Permalink
... the reasons why freenix still struggles to gain mainstream
acceptance ...
I don’t know what you mean by “mainstream acceptance”, given that Open
Source dominates the entire computing world.
John Ames
2024-10-14 22:02:26 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 8 Oct 2024 23:12:05 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
... the reasons why freenix still struggles to gain mainstream
acceptance ...
I don’t know what you mean by “mainstream acceptance”, given that
Open Source dominates the entire computing world.
(Meant to get to this last week, but life got busy.)

So, this is a thing that a lot of freenix evangelists like to claim,
because it's kinda-sorta correct, in some contexts, but it also sounds
like it means much more than it does, which is convenient when you're
trying to build an argument off it.

FOSS Unices dominate certain specific segments, unquestionably: server
infrastructure and HPC, f'rexample. They're also making substantial
inroads in the embedded space, now that the typical microcontroller is
beefy enough to run them. They achieve this dominance for several
reasons: *A.* they're free, *B.* they're generally technically sound
and reliable, *C.* they're free, *D.* they're Unix, which is a mostly
standard environment with 50+ years of familiarity, *E.* they're free,
*F.* these spaces rarely need UI more complex than the command-line
anyway, and *G.* they're free.

Which is great, congratulations, golf-clap. But it's not really
"mainstream" in any sense except that most IT departments, given their
'druthers, would opt to build their tech infrastructure off something
that - while a bit clunky to use - doesn't cost them anything but is
nevertheless pretty reliable. Which is not exactly a cosmic revelation.

Outside of the "underpinning stuff people need to not have to think
about as much as possible" department, things are *very* different.
Techies generally prize their own particular definitions of technical
excellence (and their own personal ideological hobby-horses) over user
experience, but for most people it's the other way around - they prefer
something that is pleasant and intuitive to use over something that may
be better "under the hood," but has a weird or clunky user interface.

FOSS stuff still sees acceptance in this space, but not to nearly the
same extent. To take graphic-design work as an example, people don't
use GIMP because it's better than Photoshop, they use it because it's
cheaper than buying Photoshop and easier than pirating it - and the
majority of working professionals...use Photoshop, because its workflow
is greatly superior and that makes a real difference in their ability
to work, so much so that they're willing to put up with all the heinous
licensing bullshit Adobe foists on them.

(And this is the case *even though* GIMP's backend functionally is
largely comparable to Photoshop's - which handily illustrates my point.)

And in terms of personal-computer operating systems (and the associated
desktop environments?) It's not even *close.* Taking for an example the
data at https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide
(dunno from these people myself, but they're evidently legit-ish enough
for Ars Technica,) OS market share over the last 13 mos. has Windows
sitting at an average of almost 72%, a figure that is technically known
as "an absolute curb-stomping."

And Linux? It's sitting at somewhere south of 4% - in other words, less
than one in twenty-five PCs is running it. If you count Chrome OS in
with that, it still doesn't crack one in fifteen, despite the fact that
piles of schools in the US hand out Chromebooks like breath mints. (But
then, they *last* about as long...) Even if you're generous and count
the "Unknown" and "Other" columns as probably some freenix flavor, OSX
(which is Unix, somewhere down under the layers and layers of NeXTSTEP/
Macazoid stuff, but isn't "free" in any sense) outpaces it seven to
five, and that's with "being able to afford a Mac" as a handicap!

Of course, there's a number of reasons why that's so - but not nearly
as many as there used to be. Grandma probably *could* do all her book-
facing and instant-gramming and whatnot in Chromium on LXDE...but she
isn't. Even gaming is much less limited than it used to be (thank you,
Gabe Newell,) but the vast majority of gamers have stuck with Windows
despite that, and it mostly serves to make the Steam Deck a viable
product (congratulations, Gabe Newell.) If most of the reasons people
*couldn't* jump to freenix are gone or nearly so, and yet only a tiny
fraction of them have done so (Linux market share has more than doubled
in the last five years, but in context that's like saying Grand Fenwick
substantially expanded its territory by annexing a neighboring farm,)
that strongly suggests that there are reasons why they don't *want* to.

And - to circle back 'round to the actual point we were discussing -
where FOSS alternatives genuinely do dominate in user-oriented spaces,
it's pretty inevitably the ones that actually *do* put some real effort
into presenting a consistent, intuitive user interface. Mozilla's had a
bad habit of (badly) copying Chrome's (dumb) ideas the last decade or
so, but they attained the following they did by making a legitimately
huge improvement in usability over IE. LibreOffice has learned lessons
from MS Office that *Microsoft* still hasn't learned (like "everyone in
the world hates your stupid Playskool activity center, please just stop
it already.") Android's QC on third-party applications may be spotty,
but the core user interface is a perfectly reasonable copy of iOS.

User experience may not be priority #1 for programmers - but it really
does matter. And usability and technical excellence are not mututally
exclusive, at least not to remotely the extent that programmers like to
think they are. And the fact that many, many freenix advocates like to
brush off usability concerns is certainly not the *only* reason freenix
struggles to gain more than a small fraction of the personal-computer
market, but it sure doesn't *help.*
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-10-17 23:25:42 UTC
Permalink
But it's not really "mainstream" in any sense except that ...
Except that it makes up most of the computing world.

By “mainstream”, you really mean “desktop”, don’t you? But the only way
Windows can be claimed to dominate that is by shrinking the definition of
“desktop” itself.
OS market share over the last 13 mos. has Windows
sitting at an average of almost 72% ...
Ignoring the fact that more Linux systems ship each year than the entire
Windows installed base.

If Linux is not “mainstream”, why is Microsoft trying so hard to make
Windows more like Linux? The market leader never has to pay attention to
maintaining compatibility with the also-rans. The only conclusion:
Microsoft is no longer the market leader.

Bozo User
2024-10-11 14:49:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by John Ames
On Sun, 6 Oct 2024 21:31:41 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Try the customizable ones. You can set them up to work how you like.
Sure can! ...and then run into the issue that none of your applications
pull from the same config file as the window manager/file manager, some
of them aren't customizable at all ...
The freedesktop.org standards are supposed by all the major GUI desktops.
Of course they each have their own theming system and plugins etc.
Post by John Ames
... Qt applications don't look or act like GTK2 applications don't look
or act like GTK3 applications, the *one* utility in the repository that
does some critical thing you need is still a Godforsaken Motif
application...
I never understood why that was such a big deal. I’ve used so many GUIs
over the years/decades that switching between different ones is really not
an issue. They all pretty much behave the same anyway, so what if the
window title bar is a slightly different shape, and the icons have
different colours? A computer is for getting work done, I’m not one of
those wasting hours trying to make things look pretty.
Post by John Ames
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
If that still isn’t enough, why not write your own? That’s how all the
existing ones came about.
Absolutely! That's a thing I want to do, instead of any of the things I
actually wanted to do!
As the man said: free, as long as your time has no value...
Think about the value of the time of those who wrote the things you are
using for free ...a
I my case I use Zukitre and qt5ct with custom tweaks (black as the highlight
colour instead of blue), and everything looks ok even on low red devices.
For GTK4 pests, create and chmod +x /etc/profile.d/gtk.sh

The Tango icon theme has outlines and it's very visible on everything.
There's the Tango2 icon theme which looks a bit worse but far better
than Adwaita.

#/bin/sh
export GTK_THEME=Zukitre
export GTK_ICON_THEME=Tango
#eof

Have fun.
Peter Flass
2024-10-06 22:58:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Yeo
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
I always thought the main reason OS/2 failed was IBM wasted its time
trying to fulfil its promise, made when it first brought out the PC AT,
that it would one day bring out an OS that would make use of the
protected-mode features of the 286 chip. But by the time OS/2 came out,
people were buying 386-based machines in droves, and nobody really cared
about making the most out of aging 286-based ones any more.
Yes, that was one of the errors IBM made. Back then IBM tried to keep
its promises and 286 support was promised.
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
But IBM made far more missteps than that. Even when it finally made OS/2
into a 32-bit OS, it still managed to screw up the marketing, climaxing in
the total disaster that was the “OS/2 Warp” branding.
I always thought the branding was fairly good besides the promises of a
good experience with 4MB of ram. It really was a better DOS then DOS and
a better Windows then Windows, at least until MS sabotaged WinOS2. Just
having a better file system at the time was enough to improve things
enough to make that "better then" true.
It does take good hardware, even now, though as often as not it is
firmware such as the ACPI tables.
Still, it was well enough designed that today you can buy a decent
computer and there's a good chance that OS/2, or rather the OEM ArcaOS,
will install. Potential problems are mostly related to lack of 32 bit
support. Frame buffer needs to be below 4GB. PCI space has expanded to
the point that there's not enough address space below 4GB to run recent
software.
I've yet to find a graphical shell that works as well as the
WORKPLACESHELL, though it's age does show and it did have its flaws like
only one input queue.
If IBM had kept on with it they probably would have moved most or all of it
to 32 bit eventually.

Agree about workplace shell. Ubuntu Mate is close.
Post by Dave Yeo
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Good review of the whole sorry tale here
http://youtu.be/rAMT187GWd4
Have to watch when the networks not so busy, crappy LTE connection here.
Dave,
posting from SeaMonkey on OS/2
--
Pete
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-10-06 23:26:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Flass
Agree about workplace shell. Ubuntu Mate is close.
What did WPS do, really, then you can’t do on a modern *nix GUI with
“desktop” files? Those are very versatile things: you can use them to
define icons on your desktop, custom items in application menus, and also
templates for a file manager’s “create new document” right-click menu.

What else do you need, that’s missing?
Peter Flass
2024-10-07 01:05:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Peter Flass
Agree about workplace shell. Ubuntu Mate is close.
What did WPS do, really, then you can’t do on a modern *nix GUI with
“desktop” files? Those are very versatile things: you can use them to
define icons on your desktop, custom items in application menus, and also
templates for a file manager’s “create new document” right-click menu.
What else do you need, that’s missing?
I never got into it, but WPS is completely object-oriented under the hood.
--
Pete
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-10-07 03:11:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Peter Flass
Agree about workplace shell. Ubuntu Mate is close.
What did WPS do, really, then you can’t do on a modern *nix GUI with
“desktop” files? Those are very versatile things: you can use them to
define icons on your desktop, custom items in application menus, and
also templates for a file manager’s “create new document” right-click
menu.
What else do you need, that’s missing?
I never got into it, but WPS is completely object-oriented under the hood.
I know. So what was the big deal, again?
John Ames
2024-10-07 16:09:26 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 7 Oct 2024 03:11:57 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
I know. So what was the big deal, again?
This is something I've long wondered - a factoid often cited, but I've
never seen or heard someone give a breakdown on what the practical
implications for the user experience are. Genuinely curious to hear
someone explain what the deal is with it.
Peter Flass
2024-10-07 22:52:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Ames
On Mon, 7 Oct 2024 03:11:57 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
I know. So what was the big deal, again?
This is something I've long wondered - a factoid often cited, but I've
never seen or heard someone give a breakdown on what the practical
implications for the user experience are. Genuinely curious to hear
someone explain what the deal is with it.
Don’t take this as gospel, but, I believe, for example, that if you dragged
any object to a suitably enabled icon, it would recognize what it was
dealing with and handle it accordingly. For example, drag anything type of
document to the printer (spreadsheet, word proc, text, image, etc.) and it
would print with the appropriate formatting.

I only ever used icons as icons, so basically windows-like.

Many years later MS got some object-oriented functionality, but it was
bolted on instead of built in.

Remember I’m talking thru my hat.
--
Pete
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-10-08 02:45:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Flass
Don’t take this as gospel, but, I believe, for example, that if you
dragged any object to a suitably enabled icon, it would recognize what
it was dealing with and handle it accordingly. For example, drag
anything type of document to the printer (spreadsheet, word proc, text,
image, etc.) and it would print with the appropriate formatting.
That’s hardly a new thing any more.

<https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Specifications/XDND/>
<https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Specifications/direct-save/>
Post by Peter Flass
Many years later MS got some object-oriented functionality, but it was
bolted on instead of built in.
How do you mean “bolted on”? You mean it was not implemented in C++
classes, but had a C API?
Dave Yeo
2024-10-09 02:56:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Peter Flass
Many years later MS got some object-oriented functionality, but it was
bolted on instead of built in.
How do you mean “bolted on”? You mean it was not implemented in C++
classes, but had a C API?
It was not originally designed to be object orientated, probably why
they used C++ instead of C like the WPS, where the shell could be
extended in most any language
Dave
Peter Flass
2024-10-07 22:52:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Peter Flass
Agree about workplace shell. Ubuntu Mate is close.
What did WPS do, really, then you can’t do on a modern *nix GUI with
“desktop” files? Those are very versatile things: you can use them to
define icons on your desktop, custom items in application menus, and
also templates for a file manager’s “create new document” right-click
menu.
What else do you need, that’s missing?
I never got into it, but WPS is completely object-oriented under the hood.
I know. So what was the big deal, again?
Like I said, I never really got into it, but I think all your icons could
be objects.
--
Pete
Dave Yeo
2024-10-09 03:14:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Flass
Like I said, I never really got into it, but I think all your icons could
be objects.
More like the icons represent objects rather then directly physical
things. This URL icon opens this browser whereas this URL icon opens a
different browser is a simple description.
Speaking of icons, I recently tried to associate an icon with a program
on Mint, couldn't easily figure out how. The WPS, you open the
properties, go to the icon tab and drag'n'drop your icon.
Being object orientated, things can be extended, the Desktop is a
folder. Shit, my MP3/flac/ogg player is a folder, a folder with controls
like an audio program and where you can right click a file and convert
it, eg from WAV to flac.
Folders can each have a different font or background if you choose as
well. Isn't hard to write an installer in REXX that does it as well.
Which was another advantage of OS/2 and the WPS, REXX being very
integrated into the system. Most programs that were complicated enough
to support a scripting language also used REXX on OS/2. REXX being
created for computer operators rather then programmers is a nice
language for users.
Dave
ps Wiki has a short write up about the WPS,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workplace_Shell
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-10-09 05:48:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Yeo
Speaking of icons, I recently tried to associate an icon with a program
on Mint, couldn't easily figure out how. The WPS, you open the
properties, go to the icon tab and drag'n'drop your icon.
Similar with *nix GUIs. For example, I right-click an item in my
application menu, select “Edit Application...”, and in the properties
dialog that pops up, I can click the icon to replace it with another one.
Dave Yeo
2024-10-11 02:28:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Dave Yeo
Speaking of icons, I recently tried to associate an icon with a program
on Mint, couldn't easily figure out how. The WPS, you open the
properties, go to the icon tab and drag'n'drop your icon.
Similar with *nix GUIs. For example, I right-click an item in my
application menu, select “Edit Application...”, and in the properties
dialog that pops up, I can click the icon to replace it with another one.
Not on Cinnamon, there is no "Edit Application" and choosing the
properties gives a very simple "Launcher Properties" window with only
the choices to edit "Name", "Command", "Comment" and tick boxes for
"Launch in Terminal" and "Use dedicated GPU if available"

At one time it was as simple as editing menu.lst IIRC and most all
window managers would pick it up.
Dave
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-10-11 05:42:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Yeo
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Similar with *nix GUIs. For example, I right-click an item in my
application menu, select “Edit Application...”, and in the properties
dialog that pops up, I can click the icon to replace it with another one.
Not on Cinnamon, there is no "Edit Application" and choosing the
properties gives a very simple "Launcher Properties" window with only
the choices to edit "Name", "Command", "Comment" and tick boxes for
"Launch in Terminal" and "Use dedicated GPU if available"
You know, I really thought there was a standardized spec from
freedesktop.org for customizing your application menu on a per-user basis,
but it appears I was wrong.

At least the standard contents come from a standard place: the /usr/share/
applications directory. But user-custom entries don’t seem to be
standardized.

I can do the above menu-editing under KDE. For your particular GUI
desktop, you will have to consult the docs to figure out how to customize
it.
Post by Dave Yeo
At one time it was as simple as editing menu.lst IIRC and most all
window managers would pick it up.
Maybe some window managers/desktop environments still do that. If the menu
is just a list of simple commands, then that would be adequate. For drag-
and-drop capability, you need something more.
John Dallman
2024-10-06 09:10:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
I always thought the main reason OS/2 failed was IBM wasted its
time trying to fulfil its promise, made when it first brought out
the PC AT, that it would one day bring out an OS that would make
use of the protected-mode features of the 286 chip. But by the time
OS/2 came out, people were buying 386-based machines in droves, and
nobody really cared about making the most out of aging 286-based
ones any more.
The promise was a little closer in time. When the PS/2 range was launched,
the low-end machines, the Model 50 and the Model 60, were 286-based and
corporate customers bought a lot of them. IBM promised those models would
run OS/2.

John
Chris Ahlstrom
2024-10-06 11:01:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Dallman
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
I always thought the main reason OS/2 failed was IBM wasted its
time trying to fulfil its promise, made when it first brought out
the PC AT, that it would one day bring out an OS that would make
use of the protected-mode features of the 286 chip. But by the time
OS/2 came out, people were buying 386-based machines in droves, and
nobody really cared about making the most out of aging 286-based
ones any more.
The promise was a little closer in time. When the PS/2 range was launched,
the low-end machines, the Model 50 and the Model 60, were 286-based and
corporate customers bought a lot of them. IBM promised those models would
run OS/2.
https://www.astrodigital.org/digital/billgates.html

Bill Said: "I believe OS/2 is destined to be the most important
operating system, and possibly program, of all time." in November 1987.
While the initial versions were buggy and awkward, I loved the later
versions of OS/2 and found it to be a far more powerful and reliable
operating system than what Microsoft was peddling. With the advantage of
hindsight, I think OS/2's undoing was IBM's decision to have OS/2 run
Windows programs better than Windows. This capability was actually a
disincentive for application developers to write native OS/2 programs.

Don't forget Bill Gates' chicanery

https://www.quora.com/Why-did-IBMs-OS-2-project-lose-to-Microsoft-given-that-IBM-had-much-more-resources-than-Microsoft-at-that-time

What is forgotten is that Microsoft also developed for OS/2. What is not
well-known is that Microsoft again sabotaged whatever they shipped for
OS/2. So running Word or Excel on OS/2 was a miserable experience,
especially compared to running Word or Excel on Windows. I know - I used
and tested all apps for Windows and OS/2 available at that time rather
extensively. There's no question in my mind that Microsoft's OS/2-app
crappiness was deliberate on their part. It was as if someone tried to
turn a Tesla into a Prius by developing microcode that would run on
either car.

And not all of the evidence of Microsoft's lack of scruples came out
during their trial for violation of anti-trust laws. There was little or
nothing, for example, on their online character assassination campaigns
or manipulation of the media. As the target of one of their campaigns, I
can tell you that they didn't play nice. They once concocted a scheme to
cancel my cable service as if I were moving to Redmond. Strangely, they
were recruiting me at the same time they were trashing my reputation
online and it wasn't a case of the right hand not knowing what the left
hand was doing. I got a phone call a week after the cancellation asking
if I had gotten the message. What message? “We know where you live. Oh,
by the way, how many children did you say you had, Dave?”
Get the picture?
--
The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two
chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed.
-- Carl Jung
Lynn Wheeler
2024-10-06 19:08:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Dallman
The promise was a little closer in time. When the PS/2 range was launched,
the low-end machines, the Model 50 and the Model 60, were 286-based and
corporate customers bought a lot of them. IBM promised those models would
run OS/2.
Boca was making all sort of claims about PC market ... and I was posting
on internal forums, from sunday san jose mercury news, quantity one,
clone pc prices (from other side of pacific), way below IBM's large
quantity discount)). Then clone PC makers had built up big inventory of
286 machines for xmas season when 386 appeared (in part 386 chip
included functions that required several chips in 286 systems, reducing
386 system build costs), and there was enormous fire sale clearance for
the 286 systems.

some archived posts
https://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#79 a.f.c history checkup...
https://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#80 a.f.c history checkup...
https://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#81 a.f.c history checkup...
https://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#82 a.f.c history checkup...


then boca contracted with Dataquest (since bought by gartner) for
detailed study of PC market, including couple hr video taped round table
of silicon valley PC experts ... I had known the person doing the study
at Dataquest and was asked to be one of the PC experts (they promise to
garble my details so boca wouldn't recognize me as ibm employee). I did
manage to clear it with my immediate management
--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
Lynn Wheeler
2024-10-06 23:33:17 UTC
Permalink
the IBM communication group was fiercely fighting off client/server and
distributed computing. Late 80s, a senior engineer in the disk division
got a talk scheduled at internal, communication group, world-wide
conference supposedly on 3174 performance ... but opened the talk with
statement that the communication group was going to be responsible for
the demise of the disk division. They were seeing a drop in disk sales
with data fleeing mainframe datacenters to more distributed computing
friendly platforms ... and had come up with a number of solutions.
However the communication group was constantly vetoing the disk division
solutions (with communication group corporate strategic
ownership/responsibility for everything that crossed datacenter walls).

note that workstation division had done their own cards for the PC/RT
(PCAT-bus) including 4mbit token-ring card. Then for the RS/6000
microchannel workstations, AWD was told they couldn't do their own
cards, but had to use PS2 microchannel cards. The communication group
had severely performance kneecaped the PS2 microchannel cards
... example was that the $800 PS2 microchannel 16mbit token-ring card
had lower card throughput than the PC/RT 4mbit token-ring card ... and
significantly lower throughput than the $69 10mbit Ethernet card.

trivia: The new IBM Almaden Research bldg had been extensively
provisioned with CAT wiring, presuming use for 16mbit token-ring ...
however they found that not only (CAT wiring) 10mbit Ethernet cards had
much higher throughput than 16mbit T/R cards, also 10mbit ethernet LANs
had higher aggregate throughput and lower latency than 16mbit T/R.

Also in the aggregate cost difference between the $69 Ethernet cards and
$800 16mbit T/R cards, Almaden could get nearly half dozen
high-performance tcp/ip routers ... each with 16 10mbit Ethernet
interfaces and ibm mainframe channel interfaces with options for T1&T3
telco interfaces, and various high-speed serial fiber interfaces.
Result was they could spread all the RS/6000 machines across the large
number of Ethenet (tcp/ip) lans ... with only a dozen or so machines
sharing a LAN.

Summer 1988, ACM SIGCOMM published study that 30 10mbit ethernet
stations ... all running low-level device driver loop constantly sending
minimum sized packets, aggregate effective LAN throughput dropped off
from 8.5mbit/sec to 8mbit/sec.

For fiber "SLA", RS/6000 had re-engineered & tweaked mainframe ESCON
... making it slightly faster (and incompatible with everything else)
... 220mbit/sec, full-duplex; so the only thing they could use it for
was with other RS/6000s. We con one of the high-speed tcp/ip router
vendors to add a "SLA" interface option to their routers .... giving
RS/6000-based servers a high-performance entre into distributed
computing envrionment.

In 1988, the IBM branch office had asked me if I could help LLNL
(national lab) standardize some serial stuff they were playing with,
which quickly becomes fibre-channel standards (FCS, including some stuff
I had done in 1980), initially 1gbit/sec, full-duplex, aggregate
200mbyte/sec. The RS/6000 SLA engineers were planning on improving SLA
to 800mbit/sec ... when we convince them to join the FCS standard
activity instead.
--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
Loading...