Demolition of Iconic IBM Country Club Complex "Imminent"

[Iron Spring Software]

https://wnbf.com/demolition-ibm-country-club-endicott-imminent/?utm_source=tsmclip&utm_medium=referral

[KP KP]

Post by Iron Spring Software
https://wnbf.com/demolition-ibm-country-club-endicott-imminent/?utm_source=tsmclip&utm_medium=referral

Such a sad state for that building.

[Quadibloc]

Post by KP KP
Such a sad state for that building.

Yes. If it is not desired for the building to be torn down, because it is
considered to be a historic place, then the government, instead of
intervening now, should have intervened not to allow it to fall into
disrepair.
But it is unclear to me that, aside for some sentimental regrets at
the event, that this is the case. For the land to be re-used may be the
most appropriate step to take; surely an apartment building that houses
many is preferable to a country club for the few.

John Savard

[Peter Flass]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by KP KP
Such a sad state for that building.

Yes. If it is not desired for the building to be torn down, because it is
considered to be a historic place, then the government, instead of
intervening now, should have intervened not to allow it to fall into
disrepair.
But it is unclear to me that, aside for some sentimental regrets at
the event, that this is the case. For the land to be re-used may be the
most appropriate step to take; surely an apartment building that houses
many is preferable to a country club for the few.

It’s not at all obvious. There are a lot of intangible benefits to a
country club. There’s a huge (years-long) fight here in Phoenix between
homeowners surrounding a golf course where the deeds guaranteed it would be
a golf course “forever” and the current owner who was trying to use it for
new houses. In this case it looks like the homeowners won, at least for
now.

We have too many freakin “little boxes” taking up too much land that would
better be used for agriculture and requiring too much infrastructure like
new freeways. and resources such as water for lawns and pools. What we need
is more infill and more condos and apartments.

[KP KP]

Post by Peter Flass

Post by Quadibloc

Post by KP KP
Such a sad state for that building.

Yes. If it is not desired for the building to be torn down, because it is
considered to be a historic place, then the government, instead of
intervening now, should have intervened not to allow it to fall into
disrepair.
But it is unclear to me that, aside for some sentimental regrets at
the event, that this is the case. For the land to be re-used may be the
most appropriate step to take; surely an apartment building that houses
many is preferable to a country club for the few.

It’s not at all obvious. There are a lot of intangible benefits to a
country club. There’s a huge (years-long) fight here in Phoenix between
homeowners surrounding a golf course where the deeds guaranteed it would be
a golf course “forever” and the current owner who was trying to use it for
new houses. In this case it looks like the homeowners won, at least for
now.
We have too many freakin “little boxes” taking up too much land that would
better be used for agriculture and requiring too much infrastructure like
new freeways. and resources such as water for lawns and pools. What we need
is more infill and more condos and apartments.
--
Pete

Maybe a nice big park be a good use for that land.

[John Levine]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by KP KP
Such a sad state for that building.

Yes. If it is not desired for the building to be torn down, because it is
considered to be a historic place, then the government, instead of
intervening now, should have intervened not to allow it to fall into
disrepair.

Why? It is not of any great architectural interest, and the town of Union,
pop. 56,000, is not rich.

It’s not at all obvious. There are a lot of intangible benefits to a
country club. ...

If there were enough people in town interested in a another country
club, it would still be a country club. When IBM left town, all the
members left too. The Binghamton Country Club in Endwell is 1.5 miles
away and seems pretty nice.

The town needs the 75 affordable apartments they'll be building way
more than it needs another golf course.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 02:23:54 -0000 (UTC)

Post by John Levine
The town needs the 75 affordable apartments they'll be building way
more than it needs another golf course.

The only way a town needs a golf course is if the profits flow into
the town - usually they don't.

[Peter Flass]

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 02:23:54 -0000 (UTC)

Post by John Levine
The town needs the 75 affordable apartments they'll be building way
more than it needs another golf course.

The only way a town needs a golf course is if the profits flow into
the town - usually they don't.

A public course is about the same level of goodness as a public park.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 10:39:51 -0700

Post by Peter Flass

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 02:23:54 -0000 (UTC)

Post by John Levine
The town needs the 75 affordable apartments they'll be building way
more than it needs another golf course.

The only way a town needs a golf course is if the profits flow
into the town - usually they don't.

A public course is about the same level of goodness as a public park.

Public golf course is of use to the 0.1% or so that enjoy "a
good walk ruined", a public park is of use to everybody. A public park
gives children a place to play - a golf course gives a few of the greedy
ones a place to collect lost balls for money. They're not even close to
being at the same level of goodness.

[John Levine]

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 10:39:51 -0700

Post by Peter Flass

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 02:23:54 -0000 (UTC)

Post by John Levine
The town needs the 75 affordable apartments they'll be building way
more than it needs another golf course.

The only way a town needs a golf course is if the profits flow
into the town - usually they don't.

A public course is about the same level of goodness as a public park.

Public golf course is of use to the 0.1% or so that enjoy "a
good walk ruined", a public park is of use to everybody. ...

I get the impression that nobody here other than me has ever been to Endicott.

Trust me, we're not talking big cities here. It's fairly close to
Binghamton, population 48,000, home of a state university campus and a
double-A minor league baseball team. There is no shortage of open
space. What they are short of is good jobs and decent housing.

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

Post by John Levine
I get the impression that nobody here other than me has ever been to Endicott.
Trust me, we're not talking big cities here. It's fairly close to
Binghamton, population 48,000, home of a state university campus and a
double-A minor league baseball team. There is no shortage of open
space. What they are short of is good jobs and decent housing.

I was blamed for online computer conferencing on the internal network in
the late 70s and early 80s, It really took off after I distributed
trip report to Jim Gray at Tandem ... only about 300 participated, but
claims upwards of 25,000 were reading. Folklore is when corporate
executive committee was told, 5of6 wanted to fire me.

There were six copies of 300 some pages printed, along with executive
summary and summary of the summary, were packaged in Tandem 3-ring
binders and set to the executive committee. From summary of summary:

* The perception of many technical people in IBM is that the company is
rapidly heading for disaster. Furthermore, people fear that this
movement will not be appreciated until it begins more directly to affect
revenue, at which point recovery may be impossible

* Many technical people are extremely frustrated with their management and
with the way things are going in IBM. To an increasing extent, people
are reacting to this by leaving IBM Most of the contributors to the
present discussion would prefer to stay with IBM and see the problems
rectified. However, there is increasing skepticism that correction is
possible or likely, given the apparent lack of commitment by management
to take action

* There is a widespread perception that IBM management has failed to
understand how to manage technical people and high-technology
development in an extremely competitive environment.

... and from IBM Jargon
https://comlay.net/ibmjarg.pdf

Tandem Memos - n. Something constructive but hard to control; a fresh of
breath air (sic). That's another Tandem Memos. A phrase to worry middle
management. It refers to the computer-based conference (widely
distributed in 1981) in which many technical personnel expressed
dissatisfaction with the tools available to them at that time, and also
constructively criticized the way products were [are] developed. The
memos are required reading for anyone with a serious interest in quality
products. If you have not seen the memos, try reading the November 1981
Datamation summary.

... but it takes another decade (1981-1992) ... IBM has one of the worst
losses in US company history and was being re-orged into the 13 "baby
blues" in preparation for breaking up the company. gone behind paywall,
but mostly lives free at wayback machine.
http://web.archive.org/web/20101120231857/http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,977353,00.html
may also work
http://content.time.com/time/subscriber/article/0,33009,977353-1,00.html

had already left IBM, but get a call from the bowels of Armonk asking if
could help with breakup of the company. Lots of business units were
using supplier contracts in other units via MOUs. After the breakup, all
of these contracts would be in different companies ... all of those MOUs
would have to be cataloged and turned into their own contracts. However,
before getting started, the board brings in a new CEO and reverses the
breakup.

Along the way, got email from former co-workers that top executives
weren't paying attention to running the business ... but concentrating
on shifting expenses to the current year. We asked our contact from
bowels of Armonk. He says that the current year is in the red and they
won't get any bonus. However, if they can shift enough expenses from the
following year to the current year, even if if only moves it a little
into the black ... the way the executive bonus plan is written, they
will get bonuses more then twice as large as any previous bonus
(effectively getting rewarded for taking the company into the red).

various recent posts about IBM downturn/downhill slide
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018d.html#39 IBM downturn
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2019b.html#75 IBM downturn
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2019b.html#76 IBM downturn
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2019b.html#77 IBM downturn
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2019b.html#79 IBM downturn
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2021i.html#79 IBM Downturn
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2021i.html#80 IBM Downturn
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2021i.html#81 IBM Downturn
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2021i.html#82 IBM Downturn
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2021i.html#83 IBM Downturn
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2021i.html#84 IBM Downturn
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2021i.html#88 IBM Downturn
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2021i.html#89 IBM Downturn
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2021i.html#92 How IBM lost the cloud
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2021j.html#31 IBM Downturn
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2021j.html#32 IBM Downturn
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2021j.html#45 IBM Downturn
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2021j.html#49 IBM Downturn
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2021j.html#50 IBM Downturn
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2021j.html#113 IBM Downturn
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2021k.html#3 IBM Downturn
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2022e.html#103 John Boyd and IBM Wild Ducks
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2022e.html#104 John Boyd and IBM Wild Ducks
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2022f.html#2 John Boyd and IBM Wild Ducks
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2022f.html#32 John Boyd and IBM Wild Ducks
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2022f.html#42 IBM Bureaucrats
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2022f.html#60 John Boyd and IBM Wild Ducks
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2022f.html#67 John Boyd and IBM Wild Ducks

[Peter Flass]

Post by John Levine

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 10:39:51 -0700

Post by Peter Flass

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 02:23:54 -0000 (UTC)

Post by John Levine
The town needs the 75 affordable apartments they'll be building way
more than it needs another golf course.

The only way a town needs a golf course is if the profits flow
into the town - usually they don't.

A public course is about the same level of goodness as a public park.

Public golf course is of use to the 0.1% or so that enjoy "a
good walk ruined", a public park is of use to everybody. ...

I get the impression that nobody here other than me has ever been to Endicott.
Trust me, we're not talking big cities here. It's fairly close to
Binghamton, population 48,000, home of a state university campus and a
double-A minor league baseball team. There is no shortage of open
space. What they are short of is good jobs and decent housing.

Been there. Visited the IBM plant.

[Bob Martin]

Post by Peter Flass

Post by John Levine

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 10:39:51 -0700

Post by Peter Flass

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 02:23:54 -0000 (UTC)

Post by John Levine
The town needs the 75 affordable apartments they'll be building way
more than it needs another golf course.

The only way a town needs a golf course is if the profits flow
into the town - usually they don't.

A public course is about the same level of goodness as a public park.

Public golf course is of use to the 0.1% or so that enjoy "a
good walk ruined", a public park is of use to everybody. ...

I get the impression that nobody here other than me has ever been to Endicott.
Trust me, we're not talking big cities here. It's fairly close to
Binghamton, population 48,000, home of a state university campus and a
double-A minor league baseball team. There is no shortage of open
space. What they are short of is good jobs and decent housing.

Been there. Visited the IBM plant.

I spent a week there in 1982 (Hi to Gary, Charlie and Liz!).

[D.J.]

On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 20:09:04 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 10:39:51 -0700

Post by Peter Flass

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 02:23:54 -0000 (UTC)

Post by John Levine
The town needs the 75 affordable apartments they'll be building way
more than it needs another golf course.

The only way a town needs a golf course is if the profits flow
into the town - usually they don't.

A public course is about the same level of goodness as a public park.

Public golf course is of use to the 0.1% or so that enjoy "a
good walk ruined", a public park is of use to everybody. A public park
gives children a place to play - a golf course gives a few of the greedy
ones a place to collect lost balls for money. They're not even close to
being at the same level of goodness.

I've never understood the need for a golf course, it takes up lands
that could be put to better usage. Miniature golf courses are fine,
they don't take up much space. But the ones I know of, miniature ones,
are all closed.
--
Jim

[maus]

Post by D.J.
On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 20:09:04 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 10:39:51 -0700

I've never understood the need for a golf course, it takes up lands
that could be put to better usage. Miniature golf courses are fine,
they don't take up much space. But the ones I know of, miniature ones,
are all closed.

Many died during the 2004ish boom/bust when they were too valuable for
housing, and the speculators bought them out. One near here is on public
land, and is a good thing. Anyone can join as long as they behave
themselves.

Post by D.J.
--
Jim

[Peter Flass]

Post by maus

Post by D.J.
On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 20:09:04 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 10:39:51 -0700

I've never understood the need for a golf course, it takes up lands
that could be put to better usage. Miniature golf courses are fine,
they don't take up much space. But the ones I know of, miniature ones,
are all closed.

Many died during the 2004ish boom/bust when they were too valuable for
housing, and the speculators bought them out. One near here is on public
land, and is a good thing. Anyone can join as long as they behave
themselves.

Many of the ones here in Phoenix are protected by deed restrictions. People
bought houses around what was guaranteed to be a golf course “forever.”
There has been a long-running soap-opera-ish legal battle over one local
course that developer bought and then stopped watering or maintaining,
with predictable results, intending to force the homeowners to allow him to
build houses. So far, at least, the courts have ordered him to
restore the course which he is doing, grudgingly.

By the way, I don’t golf. At one point I took a few lessons thinking it
might be a good retirement hobby, but I never got into it. I do appreciate
the greenery that the courses offer, because there’s darn little of it here
otherwise.

--
Pete

[nemo]

Post by Peter Flass
By the way, I don’t golf. At one point I took a few lessons thinking it
might be a good retirement hobby, but I never got into it. I do appreciate
the greenery that the courses offer, because there’s darn little of it here
otherwise.

Unfortunately the "greenery" is often full of pesticides and
insecticides (though different localities have different rules).

N.

Post by Peter Flass
--
Pete

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 10:56:19 -0400

Post by nemo

Post by Peter Flass
By the way, I don’t golf. At one point I took a few lessons thinking it
might be a good retirement hobby, but I never got into it. I do appreciate
the greenery that the courses offer, because there’s darn little of it here
otherwise.

Unfortunately the "greenery" is often full of pesticides and
insecticides (though different localities have different rules).

There might be an issue with water usage too.

[maus]

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 10:56:19 -0400

Post by nemo

Post by Peter Flass
By the way, I don’t golf. At one point I took a few lessons thinking it
might be a good retirement hobby, but I never got into it. I do appreciate
the greenery that the courses offer, because there’s darn little of it here
otherwise.

Unfortunately the "greenery" is often full of pesticides and
insecticides (though different localities have different rules).

There might be an issue with water usage too.

Specially at the moment. The small golf course I mentioned used make a
point of being environmentally friendly, but in trying to get rid of
moss, spread an iron compound on the greens, which, natch, turned almost
to blue.

I am not a member of a golf club, but it amuses me to see people playing
in the rain, while building workers nearby have stopped.

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by nemo

By the way, I don’t golf. At one point I took a few lessons thinking it
might be a good retirement hobby, but I never got into it. I do appreciate
the greenery that the courses offer, because there’s darn little of it here
otherwise.

Unfortunately the "greenery" is often full of pesticides and
insecticides (though different localities have different rules).

Aren't pesticides and insecticides basically the same thing?

Were you thinking herbicides?

[Dan Espen]

Post by nemo

Post by Peter Flass
By the way, I don’t golf. At one point I took a few lessons thinking it
might be a good retirement hobby, but I never got into it. I do appreciate
the greenery that the courses offer, because there’s darn little of it here
otherwise.

Unfortunately the "greenery" is often full of pesticides and
insecticides (though different localities have different rules).

What difference does that make? The greenery is there to look nice.

First time I saw a putting green I was amazed. The grass does a good
imitation of a carpet.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 16:04:47 -0400

Post by Dan Espen

Post by nemo

Post by Peter Flass
By the way, I don’t golf. At one point I took a few lessons thinking it
might be a good retirement hobby, but I never got into it. I do
appreciate the greenery that the courses offer, because there’s darn
little of it here otherwise.

Unfortunately the "greenery" is often full of pesticides and
insecticides (though different localities have different rules).

What difference does that make? The greenery is there to look nice.

Have you not heard that pollinating insects are heading towards
being endangered species partly (at least) thanks to extensive use of
pesticides.

Post by Dan Espen
First time I saw a putting green I was amazed. The grass does a good
imitation of a carpet.

From the point of view of most wildlife it is about as much use as
so many acres of carpet. Pretty green lawns are being recognised as being
ecological disasters that are in themselves another part of the above
mentioned problem. But hey they look pretty so that's OK - not!

[Dan Espen]

Post by D.J.
On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 20:09:04 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 10:39:51 -0700

Post by Peter Flass

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 02:23:54 -0000 (UTC)

Post by John Levine
The town needs the 75 affordable apartments they'll be building way
more than it needs another golf course.

The only way a town needs a golf course is if the profits flow
into the town - usually they don't.

A public course is about the same level of goodness as a public park.

Public golf course is of use to the 0.1% or so that enjoy "a
good walk ruined", a public park is of use to everybody. A public park
gives children a place to play - a golf course gives a few of the greedy
ones a place to collect lost balls for money. They're not even close to
being at the same level of goodness.

I've never understood the need for a golf course, it takes up lands
that could be put to better usage. Miniature golf courses are fine,
they don't take up much space. But the ones I know of, miniature ones,
are all closed.

Of course you don't understand the need for golf courses.
They are never needed.
They are desirable to people that want to play golf though.
Those same people may think that's the best use of the land.

I've never played golf and I'm not likely to ever want to.
I do enjoy driving ranges. Just seeing how far I can hit a ball is a
bit of fun. Hitting the ball shorter distances for accuracy seems like
a waste of time to me, but as I said, I'm not a golfer.

[John Levine]

Post by Dan Espen
I've never played golf and I'm not likely to ever want to.
I do enjoy driving ranges. Just seeing how far I can hit a ball is a
bit of fun. Hitting the ball shorter distances for accuracy seems like
a waste of time to me, but as I said, I'm not a golfer.

You'll be pleased to know that there is a drving range on the east side
of the former IBM country club. It may have been IBM's before the club
shut down, can't tell from the pictures.

When they build the apartments, they'll be a short walk from the driving
range.

Here it is in Google street view:

https://goo.gl/maps/WHMbz73PWJ5cTaFd8

[Peter Flass]

Post by John Levine

Post by Dan Espen
I've never played golf and I'm not likely to ever want to.
I do enjoy driving ranges. Just seeing how far I can hit a ball is a
bit of fun. Hitting the ball shorter distances for accuracy seems like
a waste of time to me, but as I said, I'm not a golfer.

You'll be pleased to know that there is a drving range on the east side
of the former IBM country club. It may have been IBM's before the club
shut down, can't tell from the pictures.
When they build the apartments, they'll be a short walk from the driving
range.
https://goo.gl/maps/WHMbz73PWJ5cTaFd8

Might be a bit of a trip for Dan, I think.

[Dan Espen]

Post by John Levine

Post by Dan Espen
I've never played golf and I'm not likely to ever want to.
I do enjoy driving ranges. Just seeing how far I can hit a ball is a
bit of fun. Hitting the ball shorter distances for accuracy seems like
a waste of time to me, but as I said, I'm not a golfer.

You'll be pleased to know that there is a drving range on the east side
of the former IBM country club. It may have been IBM's before the club
shut down, can't tell from the pictures.
When they build the apartments, they'll be a short walk from the driving
range.
https://goo.gl/maps/WHMbz73PWJ5cTaFd8

Nice, but not nice enough to make me want to drive up there.

I'm in NJ. There are multiple driving ranges within 30 minutes.
There's one in Edison on Rt 1 that's 3 stories tall. (3 decks)
They even run heaters in the winter.

[Mike]

Post by Dan Espen

Post by D.J.
On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 20:09:04 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 10:39:51 -0700

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 02:23:54 -0000 (UTC)

Post by John Levine
The town needs the 75 affordable apartments they'll be building way
more than it needs another golf course.

The only way a town needs a golf course is if the profits flow
into the town - usually they don't.

A public course is about the same level of goodness as a public park.

Public golf course is of use to the 0.1% or so that enjoy "a
good walk ruined", a public park is of use to everybody. A public park
gives children a place to play - a golf course gives a few of the greedy
ones a place to collect lost balls for money. They're not even close to
being at the same level of goodness.

I've never understood the need for a golf course, it takes up lands
that could be put to better usage. Miniature golf courses are fine,
they don't take up much space. But the ones I know of, miniature ones,
are all closed.

Of course you don't understand the need for golf courses.
They are never needed.
They are desirable to people that want to play golf though.
Those same people may think that's the best use of the land.
I've never played golf and I'm not likely to ever want to.
I do enjoy driving ranges. Just seeing how far I can hit a ball is a
bit of fun. Hitting the ball shorter distances for accuracy seems like
a waste of time to me, but as I said, I'm not a golfer.

They could be useful in drought areas for finding water.
As any golfer can tell you, the balls have an affinity for water
when struck by a club.

Michael LeVine
***@redshift.com

Politics is the art of looking for trouble,
finding it everywhere,
diagnosing it incorrectly,
and applying the wrong remedies.
Groucho Marx

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 11:18:57 -0700

Post by Mike
They could be useful in drought areas for finding water.
As any golfer can tell you, the balls have an affinity for water
when struck by a club.

I thought they were equally good at finding sand to bask in.

[D.J.]

On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 19:49:16 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 11:18:57 -0700

Post by Mike
They could be useful in drought areas for finding water.
As any golfer can tell you, the balls have an affinity for water
when struck by a club.

I thought they were equally good at finding sand to bask in.

Two people I knew in high school saw being a golf club member would
help them with contacts. I pointed out that since they lived in a
house trailer, I doubted such folks wanted them around except as
caddies.
--
Jim

[Peter Flass]

Post by Mike

Post by Dan Espen

Post by D.J.
On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 20:09:04 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 10:39:51 -0700

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 02:23:54 -0000 (UTC)

Post by John Levine
The town needs the 75 affordable apartments they'll be building way
more than it needs another golf course.

The only way a town needs a golf course is if the profits flow
into the town - usually they don't.

A public course is about the same level of goodness as a public park.

Public golf course is of use to the 0.1% or so that enjoy "a
good walk ruined", a public park is of use to everybody. A public park
gives children a place to play - a golf course gives a few of the greedy
ones a place to collect lost balls for money. They're not even close to
being at the same level of goodness.

I've never understood the need for a golf course, it takes up lands
that could be put to better usage. Miniature golf courses are fine,
they don't take up much space. But the ones I know of, miniature ones,
are all closed.

Of course you don't understand the need for golf courses.
They are never needed.
They are desirable to people that want to play golf though.
Those same people may think that's the best use of the land.
I've never played golf and I'm not likely to ever want to.
I do enjoy driving ranges. Just seeing how far I can hit a ball is a
bit of fun. Hitting the ball shorter distances for accuracy seems like
a waste of time to me, but as I said, I'm not a golfer.

They could be useful in drought areas for finding water.
As any golfer can tell you, the balls have an affinity for water
when struck by a club.

LOL. This brings up another use in the West, though. Greenspaces like golf
courses, parks, sports fields, or just empty space are part of the drainage
system. In case of flash floods ponds and lakes fill up first, then
low-lying parkland. The water is released slowly so it doesn’t cause
damage.

[Peter Flass]

Post by D.J.
On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 20:09:04 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 10:39:51 -0700

Post by Peter Flass

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 02:23:54 -0000 (UTC)

Post by John Levine
The town needs the 75 affordable apartments they'll be building way
more than it needs another golf course.

The only way a town needs a golf course is if the profits flow
into the town - usually they don't.

A public course is about the same level of goodness as a public park.

Public golf course is of use to the 0.1% or so that enjoy "a
good walk ruined", a public park is of use to everybody. A public park
gives children a place to play - a golf course gives a few of the greedy
ones a place to collect lost balls for money. They're not even close to
being at the same level of goodness.

I've never understood the need for a golf course, it takes up lands
that could be put to better usage. Miniature golf courses are fine,
they don't take up much space. But the ones I know of, miniature ones,
are all closed.
--
Jim

Golf courses, along with parks, etc. provide much-needed greenspace. You
might not play golf, but the trees, ponds, etc. cool and purify the air.
People pay a premium for housing adjoining a golf course.

Sadly, a lot of miniature golf courses have gone the way of most drive-ins.
There are still some out there, but you have to look to find them. Another
victim of our housing industry that gobbles up every bit of land that
doesn’t already have a building on it.

[Dan Espen]

Post by Peter Flass

Post by D.J.
On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 20:09:04 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 10:39:51 -0700

Post by Peter Flass

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 02:23:54 -0000 (UTC)

Post by John Levine
The town needs the 75 affordable apartments they'll be building way
more than it needs another golf course.

The only way a town needs a golf course is if the profits flow
into the town - usually they don't.

A public course is about the same level of goodness as a public park.

Public golf course is of use to the 0.1% or so that enjoy "a
good walk ruined", a public park is of use to everybody. A public park
gives children a place to play - a golf course gives a few of the greedy
ones a place to collect lost balls for money. They're not even close to
being at the same level of goodness.

I've never understood the need for a golf course, it takes up lands
that could be put to better usage. Miniature golf courses are fine,
they don't take up much space. But the ones I know of, miniature ones,
are all closed.
--
Jim

Golf courses, along with parks, etc. provide much-needed greenspace.

All this discussion and we failed to remember the primary use of golf courses.
You play golf to advance into management.

[Peter Flass]

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Peter Flass

Post by D.J.
On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 20:09:04 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 10:39:51 -0700

Post by Peter Flass

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 02:23:54 -0000 (UTC)

Post by John Levine
The town needs the 75 affordable apartments they'll be building way
more than it needs another golf course.

The only way a town needs a golf course is if the profits flow
into the town - usually they don't.

A public course is about the same level of goodness as a public park.

Public golf course is of use to the 0.1% or so that enjoy "a
good walk ruined", a public park is of use to everybody. A public park
gives children a place to play - a golf course gives a few of the greedy
ones a place to collect lost balls for money. They're not even close to
being at the same level of goodness.

I've never understood the need for a golf course, it takes up lands
that could be put to better usage. Miniature golf courses are fine,
they don't take up much space. But the ones I know of, miniature ones,
are all closed.
--
Jim

Golf courses, along with parks, etc. provide much-needed greenspace.

All this discussion and we failed to remember the primary use of golf courses.
You play golf to advance into management.

Or schmooze with a customer to land an order.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 17:28:32 -0700

Post by Peter Flass

Post by Dan Espen
All this discussion and we failed to remember the primary use of golf
courses. You play golf to advance into management.

Or schmooze with a customer to land an order.

IOW they provide a discreet place to apply grease to transactions.

This is *not* a good thing.

[D.J.]

On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 12:27:57 -0700, Peter Flass

Post by Peter Flass

Post by D.J.
On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 20:09:04 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 10:39:51 -0700

Post by Peter Flass

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 02:23:54 -0000 (UTC)

Post by John Levine
The town needs the 75 affordable apartments they'll be building way
more than it needs another golf course.

The only way a town needs a golf course is if the profits flow
into the town - usually they don't.

A public course is about the same level of goodness as a public park.

Public golf course is of use to the 0.1% or so that enjoy "a
good walk ruined", a public park is of use to everybody. A public park
gives children a place to play - a golf course gives a few of the greedy
ones a place to collect lost balls for money. They're not even close to
being at the same level of goodness.

I've never understood the need for a golf course, it takes up lands
that could be put to better usage. Miniature golf courses are fine,
they don't take up much space. But the ones I know of, miniature ones,
are all closed.
--
Jim

Golf courses, along with parks, etc. provide much-needed greenspace. You
might not play golf, but the trees, ponds, etc. cool and purify the air.
People pay a premium for housing adjoining a golf course.
Sadly, a lot of miniature golf courses have gone the way of most drive-ins.
There are still some out there, but you have to look to find them. Another
victim of our housing industry that gobbles up every bit of land that
doesn’t already have a building on it.

Yup. I had, and have now partially put back, a web site on closed
drive-in movie theaters. There were over three thousand in the US at
one time. Another site I went to for info said over five thousand.
There are less than 300 of them now.
--
Jim

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by D.J.
On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 12:27:57 -0700, Peter Flass

Post by Peter Flass
Sadly, a lot of miniature golf courses have gone the way of most drive-ins.
There are still some out there, but you have to look to find them. Another
victim of our housing industry that gobbles up every bit of land that
doesn’t already have a building on it.

Even if it already has a building that's considered unproductive or
obsolete.

Post by D.J.
Yup. I had, and have now partially put back, a web site on closed
drive-in movie theaters. There were over three thousand in the US at
one time. Another site I went to for info said over five thousand.
There are less than 300 of them now.

And bowling alleys, softball fields and roller skating rinks. All becoming
vestiges of the past.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 16:53:41 GMT

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by D.J.
On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 12:27:57 -0700, Peter Flass

Post by Peter Flass
Sadly, a lot of miniature golf courses have gone the way of most drive-ins.
There are still some out there, but you have to look to find them. Another
victim of our housing industry that gobbles up every bit of land that
doesn’t already have a building on it.

Even if it already has a building that's considered unproductive or
obsolete.

Post by D.J.
Yup. I had, and have now partially put back, a web site on closed
drive-in movie theaters. There were over three thousand in the US at
one time. Another site I went to for info said over five thousand.
There are less than 300 of them now.

And bowling alleys, softball fields and roller skating rinks. All becoming
vestiges of the past.

This NG is open to all nations; we used to have bowling alleys (we'd call
them skittle alleys) in some pubs (a few still left), but rarely the other
things.

top hit:
https://thebarleymow.pub/skittle-alley/

more of a dining space nowadays.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 18:17:28 +0100

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
This NG is open to all nations; we used to have bowling alleys (we'd call
them skittle alleys) in some pubs (a few still left), but rarely the other
things.

Growing up in Cambrige (the original) in the 1960s there was a
bowling alley and a roller skating rink - they went bust and were gone some
time in the 70s. Fast forward hlf a century and there's a bowling alley in
Tralee that's relatively new (decade or so I think) that seems to be doing
well - the only skating rink I've seen in recent decades is a travelling ice
skating rink - roller skates were becoming rare when skeelers (er roller
blades) took off.

[David Lesher]

Post by Peter Flass
Golf courses, along with parks, etc. provide much-needed greenspace. You
might not play golf, but the trees, ponds, etc. cool and purify the air.
People pay a premium for housing adjoining a golf course.

They are vastly over-fertilized, leading to toxic runoff into the watershed.

[maus]

Post by David Lesher

Post by Peter Flass
Golf courses, along with parks, etc. provide much-needed greenspace. You
might not play golf, but the trees, ponds, etc. cool and purify the air.
People pay a premium for housing adjoining a golf course.

They are vastly over-fertilized, leading to toxic runoff into the watershed.

One near here, supposably on public land with no permission to apply
fertilizer, spread an iron based stuff `by night and fog' to kill off
moss. The grass on the greens changed colour to a deep green purple. It
probably took a good bribe for that to be overlooked.

[maus]

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 02:23:54 -0000 (UTC)

Post by John Levine
The town needs the 75 affordable apartments they'll be building way
more than it needs another golf course.

The only way a town needs a golf course is if the profits flow into
the town - usually they don't.

Killenard golf course, near Portarlington, you may have heard of it, is famous because a
lot of its members are from Dubliin, about 50 miles away. Provides a bit of employment
locally, not as much as Costollo's shebeen that was there before.

[nemo]

Post by Iron Spring Software
https://wnbf.com/demolition-ibm-country-club-endicott-imminent/?utm_source=tsmclip&utm_medium=referral

Is the same place where IBM used to set up their tent-city for their
Hundred Per Cent Club
(https://www.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/vintage/vintage_4506VV2060.html )?

N.