Discussion:
RS-232C & Breakout Boxes
(too old to reply)
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-06-29 03:43:44 UTC
Permalink
Anybody remember “breakout boxes”? These were used for analyzing RS-232C
connections and figuring out how to get two different machines to
communicate via this supposedly “standard” connection protocol.

The standard connector had 25 pins, and I think most of them were used in
the full protocol. The original purpose was to define a connection between
a piece of “terminal equipment” (computer terminal, teletype, computer
interface) and a “data set” (modem), the latter of which communicated with
another data set via the phone network, which in turn had its own “data
terminal” connected at the other end.

But direct computer/terminal interfaces commonly used only a small number
of signals, and so correspondingly smaller connectors became common. E.g.
instead of the full DB-25, many PCs had DE-9 connectors with just 9 pins,
though of course Apple had to be different in using a DIN-8 connector.

Besides issues of bit rate, data/stop bits and parity, one common source
of incompatibilities was in how the two ends wanted to do flow control.
RS-232C did not define the concept as such. Some machines/devices used the
RTS (“request to send”) and CTS (“clear to send”) signal pins for this
purpose; one end asserted RTS when it had something to send, and the other
asserted CTS when it was ready to receive it. I think this was commonly
called “hardware” flow control. But I remember some devices wanted to use
DTR (“data terminal ready”) and DSR (“data set ready”) for this purpose
instead.

DEC gear, as usual, had the simplest possible hardware interface: just
three pins were used, one for transmitting data, the other for receiving
it, and the third for ground. Flow control was done by sending XON (CTRL/
Q) and XOFF (CTRL/S) characters in the data stream.

Of course, you then had to decide which was the “transmit” pin and which
was “receive”: RS-232C said that pin 2 (in the full 25-pin connector) was
for sending data from the data terminal to the data set, while pin 3 was
for going in the opposite direction. So if you wanted to connect two
devices, each of which thought of itself as a “data terminal”, then the
connecting cable crossed over the wires so pin 2 on one side went to pin 3
on the other, and vice versa. This was called a “null modem” cable.

Then you had devices that tried to be helpful in avoiding the need for
such a crossover, by transmitting on pin 3 and receiving on pin 2 instead.

How the devices actually behaved might or might not be documented
somewhere. Hence the need for a breakout box to hook into the connection,
and try to figure out what was happening from the blinking lights that it
showed. The box also came with little jumper wires that you could use to
connect the pins on the two ends in various ways, to assemble an ad-hoc
connection. Once you got a working arrangement, you then contacted your
hardware-expert colleague to make up a more permanent cable.

Oh, and did I mention that the connectors came in “male” (pins) and
“female” (holes for the pins) varieties? So you needed to have the right
matching connectors for each end of your cable.
Charlie Gibbs
2024-06-29 05:00:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Anybody remember “breakout boxes”? These were used for analyzing RS-232C
connections and figuring out how to get two different machines to
communicate via this supposedly “standard” connection protocol.
Yup, I still have one in the basement. One of these days I'll re-solder
the connector that broke off its ribbon cable.
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
The standard connector had 25 pins, and I think most of them were used in
the full protocol. The original purpose was to define a connection between
a piece of “terminal equipment” (computer terminal, teletype, computer
interface)
a.k.a. DTE (data terminal equipment)
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
and a “data set” (modem),
a.k.a DCE (data communication equipment), which could be a standard modem
or some sort of short-haul line driver, which at higher speeds could be
considerably cheaper than a full-blown modem.

I remember watching the price of modems fall from $1 U.S. per bps to
$1 Canadian. Yep, 300-baud modems were about $300, 2400-bps modems
(note the difference between baud and bps) were about $2500, and a
9600-bps modem would set you back a cool 10 grand. And most of the
higher-speed modems were synchronous, at least in the mainframe world.
That's when all those pins on a DB-25 connector were used - not only
for handshaking, but two of the pins carried send and receive clocks.
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
the latter of which communicated with
another data set via the phone network, which in turn had its own “data
terminal” connected at the other end.
But direct computer/terminal interfaces commonly used only a small number
of signals, and so correspondingly smaller connectors became common. E.g.
instead of the full DB-25, many PCs had DE-9 connectors with just 9 pins,
though of course Apple had to be different in using a DIN-8 connector.
Congratulations for spelling DE-9 correctly. All too many people
erroneously call them DB-9. However, the second letter (B or E in
these cases) is the shell size (and yes, there are five standard
ones, plus a number of non-standard ones, e.g. 23 pins for Amiga
monitors and (IIRC) 19 pins for classic Mac floppy drives.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-subminiature
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Besides issues of bit rate, data/stop bits and parity,
That's worth a whole separate article in itself.

<remainder of excellent article snipped>
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Oh, and did I mention that the connectors came in “male” (pins) and
“female” (holes for the pins) varieties? So you needed to have the right
matching connectors for each end of your cable.
Arrgh. This is where the standardization broke down. In a perfect,
standards-compliant world, DTE (terminal equipment) connectors are
male, while DCE (communication equipment, e.g. modems) connectors
are female. Often you need gender changers as well as null modems
to hook things up.

In my line of work (telephone call data recording), a lot of equipment
has gone to TCP/IP connections, but there is still a lot of RS-232
stuff out there (OK, EIA-232 if you want the new official name).
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | We'll go down in history as
\ / <***@kltpzyxm.invalid> | the first society that wouldn't
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | save itself because it wasn't
/ \ if you read it the right way. | cost-effective. -- Kurt Vonnegut
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-06-29 07:53:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charlie Gibbs
In my line of work (telephone call data recording), a lot of equipment
has gone to TCP/IP connections, but there is still a lot of RS-232 stuff
out there (OK, EIA-232 if you want the new official name).
Whatever happened to follow-on standards like RS-422, RS-423, RS-449?
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
2024-06-29 12:01:00 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 29 Jun 2024 07:53:07 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Charlie Gibbs
In my line of work (telephone call data recording), a lot of equipment
has gone to TCP/IP connections, but there is still a lot of RS-232 stuff
out there (OK, EIA-232 if you want the new official name).
Whatever happened to follow-on standards like RS-422, RS-423, RS-449?
USB happened to them.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
For forms of government let fools contest
Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope
Radey Shouman
2024-06-30 22:22:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Sat, 29 Jun 2024 07:53:07 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Charlie Gibbs
In my line of work (telephone call data recording), a lot of equipment
has gone to TCP/IP connections, but there is still a lot of RS-232 stuff
out there (OK, EIA-232 if you want the new official name).
Whatever happened to follow-on standards like RS-422, RS-423, RS-449?
USB happened to them.
RS-422, RS-488, and RS-232 are very much alive, though perhaps not in
consumer electronics.

--
Grant Taylor
2024-06-30 05:17:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Whatever happened to follow-on standards like RS-422, RS-423, RS-449?
I think that Mac's used RS-422.

There was a way to interconnect with limited functionality between
RS-232 and RS-422 devices.

I think that RS-485 was used in industrial settings where you'd have a
master controller talking to a lot of devices on the factory floor.
--
Grant. . . .
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-06-30 07:25:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Whatever happened to follow-on standards like RS-422, RS-423, RS-449?
I think that Mac's used RS-422.
There was a way to interconnect with limited functionality between
RS-232 and RS-422 devices.
We never had any problem using Mac serial ports with devices expecting
RS-232C connections, that I recall. That Z8530 serial controller chip was
wonderfully versatile.

As I recall, RS-422 was “balanced” -- signal voltages were measured as the
difference between two signal wires, not between a signal wire and ground.

But if you grounded one side, that turned “balanced” RS-422 into
“unbalanced” RS-423.
Post by Grant Taylor
I think that RS-485 ...
Ah, there was one I forgot.
Grant Taylor
2024-06-30 18:11:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
We never had any problem using Mac serial ports with devices expecting
RS-232C connections, that I recall. That Z8530 serial controller chip was
wonderfully versatile.
As I recall, RS-422 was “balanced” -- signal voltages were measured as the
difference between two signal wires, not between a signal wire and ground.
But if you grounded one side, that turned “balanced” RS-422 into
“unbalanced” RS-423.
See the following page for a few more details, including wiring RS-232
to RS-422.

Link - Apple Macintosh RS-422 Serial
-
https://allpinouts.org/pinouts/connectors/serial/apple-macintosh-rs-422-serial/

I've never tested this myself, but I've had a good friend whom I trust
tell me that Mac's use RS-422 and that they could communicate with
RS-232 /with/ /the/ /proper/ /cable/.
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Ah, there was one I forgot.
:-)
--
Grant. . . .
Scott Alfter
2024-07-01 21:34:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
We never had any problem using Mac serial ports with devices expecting
RS-232C connections, that I recall. That Z8530 serial controller chip was
wonderfully versatile.
As I recall, RS-422 was "balanced" -- signal voltages were measured as the
difference between two signal wires, not between a signal wire and ground.
But if you grounded one side, that turned "balanced" RS-422 into
"unbalanced" RS-423.
See the following page for a few more details, including wiring RS-232
to RS-422.
Link - Apple Macintosh RS-422 Serial
-
https://allpinouts.org/pinouts/connectors/serial/apple-macintosh-rs-422-serial/
I've never tested this myself, but I've had a good friend whom I trust
tell me that Mac's use RS-422 and that they could communicate with
RS-232 /with/ /the/ /proper/ /cable/.
The Apple IIGS had the same serial-port hardware as the Mac. I drove a
printer, an external modem, and a null-modem connection to the 286 running
my BBS with the ports on mine. Printer cables (of the "Mac to Imagewriter"
variety) were readily available at retail. Modem cables might also have
been, but I put mine together according to the directions in the user manual
for ProTERM 3.0. How much overlap there is between those instructions and the
ones referenced above, I couldn't say off-hand.

The printer ran at 9600 bps, but I had the null-modem connection running up
to 57.6 kbps IIRC.
--
_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-07-01 21:44:45 UTC
Permalink
Printer cables (of the "Mac to Imagewriter" variety) were readily
available at retail.
Remember also that Apple was practically alone back then in insisting on
using serial connections for its printers. Everybody else was those
Centronics parallel-port connections.
John Ames
2024-07-01 21:51:12 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 1 Jul 2024 21:44:45 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Printer cables (of the "Mac to Imagewriter" variety) were readily
available at retail.
Remember also that Apple was practically alone back then in insisting
on using serial connections for its printers. Everybody else was
those Centronics parallel-port connections.
Commodore used serial peripherals on their 8-bit line, as well, but it
was their own standard rather than RS-xxx.
John Ames
2024-07-01 21:59:05 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 1 Jul 2024 14:51:12 -0700
Post by John Ames
Commodore used serial peripherals on their 8-bit line, as well, but it
was their own standard rather than RS-xxx.
(Though the PET/CBM line specifically used IEEE-488.)
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-07-02 00:17:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Ames
(Though the PET/CBM line specifically used IEEE-488.)
Hah! GP-IB (or as HP, the inventor, insisted on calling it, “HP-IB”). With
those DB-25 connectors. It took me a while to realize it had nothing to do
with RS-232.

I suppose, as an expansion bus, it could be seen as a precursor to SCSI.
Charlie Gibbs
2024-07-01 23:30:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Printer cables (of the "Mac to Imagewriter" variety) were readily
available at retail.
Remember also that Apple was practically alone back then in insisting
on using serial connections for its printers. Everybody else was those
Centronics parallel-port connections.
At a PPOE we occasionally needed to print a listing in a pretty,
publishable form, as opposed to your typical line-printer output.
We had a COBOL program which would write the data to a 9-track tape
which we would send to a service bureau that had a phototypesetter
that generated camera-ready copy. One day we went to produce another
listing and found that the service bureau had shut down. While
searching for another way to generate our listing, we found an
original Apple LaserWriter in a dusty corner of our shop. Not
only did it have a serial connection, it spoke PostScript.
I purchased a set of PostScript manuals, with which I modified
the COBOL program to generate PostScript, then coaxed our
mainframe to send the file to a PC running a terminal emulator,
with the LaserWriter attached to its serial port. It successfully
cranked out the required camera-ready copy.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | We'll go down in history as
\ / <***@kltpzyxm.invalid> | the first society that wouldn't
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | save itself because it wasn't
/ \ if you read it the right way. | cost-effective. -- Kurt Vonnegut
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-07-02 00:29:14 UTC
Permalink
... we found an original Apple
LaserWriter in a dusty corner of our shop. Not only did it have a
serial connection, it spoke PostScript.
I think the RS-232C connection had a lower bandwidth than even the
LocalTalk interface (and even that was only a fraction of what Ethernet
could do, but of course those early printers did not have Ethernet).
Remember that LocalTalk could do 230.4kbs, while I think those RS-232C
ports maxed out at 19.2kbps. But to connect via LocalTalk, you probably
needed a Mac.

I wrote a custom command-line tool that ran under the Macintosh
Programmer’s Workshop and did two-way communication with the printer via
AppleTalk PAP (Printer Access Protocol). This way I could send PostScript
code and get error/status/debug messages back.
I purchased a set of PostScript manuals, with which I modified the COBOL
program to generate PostScript, then coaxed our mainframe to send the
file to a PC running a terminal emulator,
with the LaserWriter attached to its serial port. It successfully
cranked out the required camera-ready copy.
I was commissioned to write some PostScript code that worked in that sort
of way. It was loaded by the COBOL code into the printer as a prelude to a
print job, but once it started running, it intercepted all the subsequent
output from the program (which was a sequence of text items in a specific
order, so many to each page), and did its own layout before printing.

This was to generate preprinted forms for student enrolments before the
start of each academic year. I think it was something like 12,000 forms
each time. I did this job for them about four years running. I was also
asked to teach one of their staff PostScript, so they could take over the
job in-house, but the guy I was supposed to train could never quite get
his head around a stack-based language.
Charlie Gibbs
2024-07-02 17:49:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
I think the RS-232C connection had a lower bandwidth than even the
LocalTalk interface (and even that was only a fraction of what Ethernet
could do, but of course those early printers did not have Ethernet).
Remember that LocalTalk could do 230.4kbs, while I think those RS-232C
ports maxed out at 19.2kbps.
It depends on the port. I was talking to V.90 modems at 115.2kbps,
and letting hardware flow control throttle it to whatever the modem
could shove down the line (theoretically 56kbps, but actually less).
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | We'll go down in history as
\ / <***@kltpzyxm.invalid> | the first society that wouldn't
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | save itself because it wasn't
/ \ if you read it the right way. | cost-effective. -- Kurt Vonnegut
Dennis Boone
2024-07-02 19:58:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charlie Gibbs
It depends on the port. I was talking to V.90 modems at 115.2kbps,
and letting hardware flow control throttle it to whatever the modem
could shove down the line (theoretically 56kbps, but actually less).
Which was a good plan, because the modem needed some quality time with
the data before the phone line side was ready for it, so that it could
compress it.

De
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-07-03 00:21:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
I think the RS-232C connection had a lower bandwidth than even the
LocalTalk interface (and even that was only a fraction of what
Ethernet could do, but of course those early printers did not have
Ethernet). Remember that LocalTalk could do 230.4kbs, while I think
those RS-232C ports maxed out at 19.2kbps.
It depends on the port. I was talking to V.90 modems at 115.2kbps ...
I recall that was the fastest that RS-232C ports ever went. Still slower
than LocalTalk, by a factor of (coincidentally?) 2:1.

The Zilog 8530 chips were capable of a transfer rate of 1Mbps, but you had
to use external clocking. I think this is how MIDI adapters for the Mac
worked.
Grant Taylor
2024-07-01 23:42:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Remember also that Apple was practically alone back then in insisting
on using serial connections for its printers. Everybody else was
those Centronics parallel-port connections.
I used plenty of serial printers.

Especially printers connected just like terminals to Unix systems.
--
Grant. . . .
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
2024-07-02 04:46:30 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 1 Jul 2024 18:42:51 -0500
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Remember also that Apple was practically alone back then in insisting
on using serial connections for its printers. Everybody else was
those Centronics parallel-port connections.
I used plenty of serial printers.
Yep - but most of them had a Centronics port too.
Post by Grant Taylor
Especially printers connected just like terminals to Unix systems.
Or even to the pass through printer port on the back of terminals.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
For forms of government let fools contest
Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope
John Ames
2024-07-01 15:55:15 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 30 Jun 2024 00:17:47 -0500
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Whatever happened to follow-on standards like RS-422, RS-423, RS-449?
I think that Mac's used RS-422.
There was a way to interconnect with limited functionality between
RS-232 and RS-422 devices.
I think that RS-485 was used in industrial settings where you'd have
a master controller talking to a lot of devices on the factory floor.
There was some brand of MIDI sampler workstation, IIRC, that supported
RS-485 as an alternate communication protocol, but darned if I can
remember the details...
Charlie Gibbs
2024-07-01 17:13:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Ames
On Sun, 30 Jun 2024 00:17:47 -0500
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Whatever happened to follow-on standards like RS-422, RS-423, RS-449?
I think that Mac's used RS-422.
There was a way to interconnect with limited functionality between
RS-232 and RS-422 devices.
I think that RS-485 was used in industrial settings where you'd have
a master controller talking to a lot of devices on the factory floor.
There was some brand of MIDI sampler workstation, IIRC, that supported
RS-485 as an alternate communication protocol, but darned if I can
remember the details...
DMX-512, used to control stage lighting and effects, uses RS-485.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | We'll go down in history as
\ / <***@kltpzyxm.invalid> | the first society that wouldn't
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | save itself because it wasn't
/ \ if you read it the right way. | cost-effective. -- Kurt Vonnegut
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-07-01 21:46:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by John Ames
There was some brand of MIDI sampler workstation, IIRC, that supported
RS-485 as an alternate communication protocol, but darned if I can
remember the details...
DMX-512, used to control stage lighting and effects, uses RS-485.
Is that still the case? I recall a comment that the majority of MIDI
connections in current music/audio studios are in fact going over USB,
instead of the old DIN-5 connector. Is USB also being used for stage
lighting/effects? Or perhaps Ethernet is another option.
John Ames
2024-07-01 21:57:37 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 1 Jul 2024 21:46:56 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by John Ames
There was some brand of MIDI sampler workstation, IIRC, that
supported RS-485 as an alternate communication protocol, but
darned if I can remember the details...
DMX-512, used to control stage lighting and effects, uses RS-485.
Is that still the case? I recall a comment that the majority of MIDI
connections in current music/audio studios are in fact going over
USB, instead of the old DIN-5 connector. Is USB also being used for
stage lighting/effects? Or perhaps Ethernet is another option.
I'm not greatly clued in on this, but AFAIK a lot of the professional
stage stuff uses Ethernet as a transport; USB MIDI was brain-damaged
from the start in that it locks you into a star topology, so that the
maximum number of instrument/peripheral nodes in a setup is limited by
the number of available USB ports on the host computer. Ethernet still
doesn't let you do direct instrument-to-instrument communication like
you can on Ye Olde Dinne-MIDI, but it's at least *less* inflexible.
John Ames
2024-07-01 22:08:49 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 1 Jul 2024 14:57:37 -0700
Post by John Ames
I'm not greatly clued in on this, but AFAIK a lot of the professional
stage stuff uses Ethernet as a transport; USB MIDI was brain-damaged
from the start in that it locks you into a star topology, so that the
maximum number of instrument/peripheral nodes in a setup is limited by
the number of available USB ports on the host computer. Ethernet still
doesn't let you do direct instrument-to-instrument communication like
you can on Ye Olde Dinne-MIDI, but it's at least *less* inflexible.
(Of course, you *can* use a USB hub to increase the number of available
ports, but nobody seems to make large-scale USB hubs for anything other
than charging purposes; whereas you can get a 24-port gigabit Ethernet
switch for liquor money.)
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-07-02 00:14:47 UTC
Permalink
USB MIDI was brain-damaged from the start in that it locks you into a
star topology, so that the maximum number of instrument/peripheral nodes
in a setup is limited by the number of available USB ports on the host
computer.
Maybe, but it seems like having lots of USB ports is a cheap solution to
this problem. I have over a dozen on this box I’m currently using, which
is about a year old.
Ethernet still doesn't let you do direct instrument-to-instrument
communication like you can on Ye Olde Dinne-MIDI, but it's at least
*less* inflexible.
MIDI 2.0 came out a few years ago, and that allows two-way communication,
protocol negotiation, exchange of “properties” in JSON format, all kinds
of goodies. It doesn’t officially define any new lower-layer transport,
but there is something called “RTP-MIDI” which runs over TCP/IP
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RTP-MIDI>.
Charlie Gibbs
2024-07-01 23:30:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by John Ames
There was some brand of MIDI sampler workstation, IIRC, that supported
RS-485 as an alternate communication protocol, but darned if I can
remember the details...
DMX-512, used to control stage lighting and effects, uses RS-485.
Is that still the case? I recall a comment that the majority of MIDI
connections in current music/audio studios are in fact going over USB,
instead of the old DIN-5 connector. Is USB also being used for stage
lighting/effects? Or perhaps Ethernet is another option.
Dunno. I've been out of touch for a while. Next time I see my
stage-techie buddy I'll ask him what's being used these days.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | We'll go down in history as
\ / <***@kltpzyxm.invalid> | the first society that wouldn't
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | save itself because it wasn't
/ \ if you read it the right way. | cost-effective. -- Kurt Vonnegut
Scott Lurndal
2024-07-02 14:15:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by John Ames
There was some brand of MIDI sampler workstation, IIRC, that supported
RS-485 as an alternate communication protocol, but darned if I can
remember the details...
DMX-512, used to control stage lighting and effects, uses RS-485.
Is that still the case? I recall a comment that the majority of MIDI
connections
DMX-512 is _not_ MIDI.
David Lesher
2024-07-05 13:48:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Charlie Gibbs
In my line of work (telephone call data recording), a lot of equipment
has gone to TCP/IP connections, but there is still a lot of RS-232 stuff
out there (OK, EIA-232 if you want the new official name).
Whatever happened to follow-on standards like RS-422, RS-423, RS-449?
RS-485 is still in use; I'm using it to read the Modbus on WaterFurnace GSHP's.
--
A host is a host from coast to ***@panix.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
Andy Burns
2024-06-29 06:17:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Anybody remember “breakout boxes”?
I've still got a Componedex Miniscope somewhere

<https://www.ebay.it/itm/335137369631>
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-06-29 07:54:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
I've still got a Componedex Miniscope somewhere
<https://www.ebay.it/itm/335137369631>
Hey, that looks familiar. I may have used one of those at some point.
Peter Flass
2024-06-30 23:21:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Anybody remember “breakout boxes”?
I've still got a Componedex Miniscope somewhere
<https://www.ebay.it/itm/335137369631>
“Black Box” company made a lot of this stuff, at pretty good prices.
--
Pete
Andy Burns
2024-07-01 06:23:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Andy Burns
I've still got a Componedex Miniscope somewhere
<https://www.ebay.it/itm/335137369631>
“Black Box” company made a lot of this stuff, at pretty good prices.
The one I have (note I'm not calling it mine) is badged as RS. Components.

I should probably find it and open it up, see if the battery is rotting
away inside ...
Carlos E.R.
2024-06-29 12:47:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Anybody remember “breakout boxes”? These were used for analyzing RS-232C
connections and figuring out how to get two different machines to
communicate via this supposedly “standard” connection protocol.
Yes, I have one somewhere.
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
The standard connector had 25 pins, and I think most of them were used in
the full protocol. The original purpose was to define a connection between
a piece of “terminal equipment” (computer terminal, teletype, computer
interface) and a “data set” (modem), the latter of which communicated with
another data set via the phone network, which in turn had its own “data
terminal” connected at the other end.
But direct computer/terminal interfaces commonly used only a small number
of signals, and so correspondingly smaller connectors became common. E.g.
instead of the full DB-25, many PCs had DE-9 connectors with just 9 pins,
though of course Apple had to be different in using a DIN-8 connector.
:-D

And Cisco using an RJ something.
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Besides issues of bit rate, data/stop bits and parity, one common source
of incompatibilities was in how the two ends wanted to do flow control.
RS-232C did not define the concept as such. Some machines/devices used the
RTS (“request to send”) and CTS (“clear to send”) signal pins for this
purpose; one end asserted RTS when it had something to send, and the other
asserted CTS when it was ready to receive it. I think this was commonly
called “hardware” flow control. But I remember some devices wanted to use
DTR (“data terminal ready”) and DSR (“data set ready”) for this purpose
instead.
DEC gear, as usual, had the simplest possible hardware interface: just
three pins were used, one for transmitting data, the other for receiving
it, and the third for ground. Flow control was done by sending XON (CTRL/
Q) and XOFF (CTRL/S) characters in the data stream.
Of course, you then had to decide which was the “transmit” pin and which
was “receive”: RS-232C said that pin 2 (in the full 25-pin connector) was
for sending data from the data terminal to the data set, while pin 3 was
for going in the opposite direction. So if you wanted to connect two
devices, each of which thought of itself as a “data terminal”, then the
connecting cable crossed over the wires so pin 2 on one side went to pin 3
on the other, and vice versa. This was called a “null modem” cable.
Then you had devices that tried to be helpful in avoiding the need for
such a crossover, by transmitting on pin 3 and receiving on pin 2 instead.
How the devices actually behaved might or might not be documented
somewhere. Hence the need for a breakout box to hook into the connection,
and try to figure out what was happening from the blinking lights that it
showed. The box also came with little jumper wires that you could use to
connect the pins on the two ends in various ways, to assemble an ad-hoc
connection. Once you got a working arrangement, you then contacted your
hardware-expert colleague to make up a more permanent cable.
I bought one just in case, but never actually had to use it.
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Oh, and did I mention that the connectors came in “male” (pins) and
“female” (holes for the pins) varieties? So you needed to have the right
matching connectors for each end of your cable.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
2024-06-29 12:00:33 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 29 Jun 2024 03:43:44 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Anybody remember “breakout boxes”? These were used for analyzing RS-232C
connections and figuring out how to get two different machines to
communicate via this supposedly “standard” connection protocol.
Ho yus! Instead of a single expensive breakout box I had a stack of
cheap single function gizmos most with 25 pin male at one end and female at
the other but also 25/9 for both genders of 9 and M/M and F/F 25 pin
straight through (gender benders). One gizmo was a set of labelled LEDs
(best plugged in to one end at a time), another had two rows of turned pin
sockets and a pack of short jumper wires, finally there were a few
pre-wired crossovers.

The great thing about these little widgets was that they were very
cheap so it was no problem to leave some of them under the floor at a
customer's (crossovers and converters not breakout blocks - honest) rather
than coming back or re-soldering their connectors.
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
DEC gear, as usual, had the simplest possible hardware interface: just
three pins were used, one for transmitting data, the other for receiving
it, and the third for ground. Flow control was done by sending XON (CTRL/
Q) and XOFF (CTRL/S) characters in the data stream.
When we wired the Torch Computers office for terminals back in 1982
we used the lightest guage of three core mains cable we could find and were
able to run almost every terminal in the building at 19,200bps (which was
as fast as the server would go), one of the most distant had to be dropped
to 9,600.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
For forms of government let fools contest
Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope
Ian
2024-06-29 15:38:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Sat, 29 Jun 2024 03:43:44 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Anybody remember “breakout boxes”? These were used for analyzing RS-232C
connections and figuring out how to get two different machines to
communicate via this supposedly “standard” connection protocol.
Ho yus! Instead of a single expensive breakout box I had a stack of
cheap single function gizmos most with 25 pin male at one end and female at
the other but also 25/9 for both genders of 9 and M/M and F/F 25 pin
straight through (gender benders). One gizmo was a set of labelled LEDs
(best plugged in to one end at a time), another had two rows of turned pin
sockets and a pack of short jumper wires, finally there were a few
pre-wired crossovers.
Still got a box of 'em, 9-25, M-F, xover, rewirable and with LEDs. Used some
a few weeks ago to connect a thing I made back in the 80's to a modern PC
with a USB serial adapter:

Loading Image...

(That's a 9-25, LED breakout and homemade null-modem. The breadboard is a CGA
to SCART converter)

Whenever asked to connect two pieces of equipment with "RS232" I always started
with the lights, was quicker than trying to find out if each end was DTE or DCE,
getting it wrong and having to swap it over anyway...
--
Ian

"Tamahome!!!" - "Miaka!!!"
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
2024-06-29 17:47:10 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 29 Jun 2024 15:38:56 -0000 (UTC)
Ian <${send-direct-email-to-news1021-at-jusme-dot-com-if-you-must}
Post by Ian
https://www.jusme.com/perm/rs232-gpu.jpg
Yep them's the ones - even down to the colours. There was another
more useful LED box with rather more LEDs on it as well as one like that in
my kit - at one stage I also carried a gas soldering iron and a small roll
of solder for permanent fixes.

The most fiddly connector I ever wired was also a D-Type, but not
for RS-232. I had to make some fully wired 50 way cables. 50 way D-type
connectors have three rows of pins and the cable gets progressively more
awkward (it's not exactly cooperative at any stage) as you solder the right
length wires to fit in the casing which by the time you've finished is
pretty much full of wire. I made very very sure that each one was wired
correctly the first time - I *really* didn't want to try and fix a miswire!
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
For forms of government let fools contest
Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-06-29 23:03:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
The most fiddly connector I ever wired was also a D-Type, but not
for RS-232. I had to make some fully wired 50 way cables.
DD-50. SCSI? In the 50-pin connector, every other pin was ground.
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
2024-06-30 07:23:57 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 29 Jun 2024 23:03:21 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
The most fiddly connector I ever wired was also a D-Type, but
not for RS-232. I had to make some fully wired 50 way cables.
DD-50. SCSI? In the 50-pin connector, every other pin was ground.
No it was a custom thing with 25 twisted pairs in the cable.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
For forms of government let fools contest
Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope
Scott Alfter
2024-07-01 21:51:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
The most fiddly connector I ever wired was also a D-Type, but not
for RS-232. I had to make some fully wired 50 way cables.
DD-50. SCSI? In the 50-pin connector, every other pin was ground.
SCSI (single-ended narrow parallel SCSI, more specifically) was usually
Centronics-style, not D-sub. Apple tended to put DB-25 on the computer end,
and there were some add-on boards for x86 hardware that followed that
convention as well, but nearly all peripherals would've had a couple of
massive 50-pin Centronics connectors on them. Later equipment might've used
an HD-50 connector instead, which was about the same size as DB-25 but with
two rows of 50 pins each. (I suspect that the HD-50 connector (and HD-68 for
wide SCSI) might've been more about enabling faster speeds via LVD signaling
and clock speeds beyond 10 MT/s.)
--
_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?
Ian
2024-06-30 08:18:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
The most fiddly connector I ever wired was also a D-Type, but not
for RS-232. I had to make some fully wired 50 way cables. 50 way D-type
connectors have three rows of pins and the cable gets progressively more
awkward (it's not exactly cooperative at any stage) as you solder the right
length wires to fit in the casing which by the time you've finished is
pretty much full of wire. I made very very sure that each one was wired
correctly the first time - I *really* didn't want to try and fix a miswire!
IDC FTW :)
--
Ian

"Tamahome!!!" - "Miaka!!!"
Charlie Gibbs
2024-06-29 18:21:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
When we wired the Torch Computers office for terminals back in 1982
we used the lightest guage of three core mains cable we could find and were
able to run almost every terminal in the building at 19,200bps (which was
as fast as the server would go), one of the most distant had to be dropped
to 9,600.
Yup. Officially, RS-232 is good for up to 50 feet at 9600 bps.
But we managed to get away with pushing 38,400 bps to a terminal
at the opposite end of the building. You pays your money, you
takes your chances.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | We'll go down in history as
\ / <***@kltpzyxm.invalid> | the first society that wouldn't
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | save itself because it wasn't
/ \ if you read it the right way. | cost-effective. -- Kurt Vonnegut
Freddy1X
2024-07-01 02:25:41 UTC
Permalink
Charlie Gibbs wrote:

( cuts )
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Yup. Officially, RS-232 is good for up to 50 feet at 9600 bps.
But we managed to get away with pushing 38,400 bps to a terminal
at the opposite end of the building. You pays your money, you
takes your chances.
The customer had a crt terminal in another building running over telephone
pairs. After a few bytes were exchanged the computer would declair that the
terminal was off line. They called me to look at it and with the break out
box, using what was called a 'pulse trap' feature, could see that one of the
data lines, which so happened to share the same phone wire pair with DTE( I
think it was DTE ). The data transitions glitched the DTE making the system
think that the terminal went off line. The solution was to get the two
signals on different pairs in the phone cable. There were plenty to spare.
The RS-232 didn't cair that we didn't have balanced wiring.

I still have my break out box and have had it out about 2 months ago to
isolate a defective RS-232 Xmit chip.

Freddy,
some things never get old.
--
May be covered with a sterile bandage.

/|>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>\|
/| I may be demented \|
/| but I'm not crazy! \|
/|<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<\|
* SPAyM trap: there is no X in my address *
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
2024-06-29 23:08:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
When we wired the Torch Computers office for terminals back in
1982 ...
I remember them coming to visit the University where I was working. This
must have been 1986, not long after I started. They were there to show off
the “Torch XXX” Unix workstation. Some kind of tour of prospective
customers in NZ, I guess. This was before X11, so I’m not sure what kind
of GUI system they had running. I was already a pretty dyed-in-the-wool
Mac fanatic by that point.

I remember discussing UI feedback with a colleague of mine and one of the
Torch guys. I pointed out that you shouldn’t leave the screen with a
static “please wait” display while some lengthy operation was happening:
if you put up some kind of progress animation, that would make the user
feel that things were happening faster.

He said “gentlemen, thank you for your time,” and walked off.
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
2024-06-30 07:43:14 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 29 Jun 2024 23:08:34 -0000 (UTC)
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
When we wired the Torch Computers office for terminals back in
1982 ...
I remember them coming to visit the University where I was working. This
must have been 1986, not long after I started. They were there to show
After I left the company in disgust at the management (who I think
were gone by 1986, thrown out when the vulture capital outfit found out
where the money went).
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
off the “Torch XXX” Unix workstation. Some kind of tour of prospective
customers in NZ, I guess. This was before X11, so I’m not sure what kind
of GUI system they had running. I was already a pretty dyed-in-the-wool
Mac fanatic by that point.
The XXX was originally going to be just a 68K card and a BBC B, a
sort of souped up Torch - but I gather plans changed after I left.
Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
I remember discussing UI feedback with a colleague of mine and one of the
Torch guys. I pointed out that you shouldn’t leave the screen with a
if you put up some kind of progress animation, that would make the user
feel that things were happening faster.
He said “gentlemen, thank you for your time,” and walked off.
Hah sounds like Ray &erson (as he briefly insisted on his name
being spelled - until we took to calling him Ampersanderson instead of
Anderson). We were all fresh out of college and got well shafted except for
Ray who got pulled into management and eventually left to run his own well
funded business. There were hanf made posters up of phrases often uttered by
various people on the team - one said "No Ray NO!" attributed to
"everybody". The poster over the printer scraps box read "Towards the
paperless office".
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
For forms of government let fools contest
Whate're is best administered is best - Alexander Pope
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