Adobe oddity?

[gareth evans]

Historic software is usually like the soldier, never
dying but just simply fading away unless and until, that is,
someone versed in computer folklore attempts a resurrection.

Strange, then, the behaviour of Adobe, who are not just
discontinuing the support of their Flash utility, but
actively taking steps to stop it working at all a couple
of weeks into the New Year.

Already I am being prompted to uninstall it from my computers.

This is unfortunate because there are a lot of websites out there
that rely on Adobe Flash; websites that will be unusable shortly.

Particularly for me, the BBC Big Welsh Challenge is something
that I return to again and again in my repeated desultory
attempts to learn the iaith fy nadhau. (The language
of my fathers)

[JimP]

On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 16:19:21 +0000, gareth evans

Post by gareth evans
Historic software is usually like the soldier, never
dying but just simply fading away unless and until, that is,
someone versed in computer folklore attempts a resurrection.
Strange, then, the behaviour of Adobe, who are not just
discontinuing the support of their Flash utility, but
actively taking steps to stop it working at all a couple
of weeks into the New Year.
Already I am being prompted to uninstall it from my computers.
This is unfortunate because there are a lot of websites out there
that rely on Adobe Flash; websites that will be unusable shortly.
Particularly for me, the BBC Big Welsh Challenge is something
that I return to again and again in my repeated desultory
attempts to learn the iaith fy nadhau. (The language
of my fathers)

Heinlein said it best, 'Never underestimate the power of human
stupidity'.

If they are actually concerned about Adobe flash, they could fix it.
This appears more of of a 'gotcha' than anything else.

[Dan Espen]

Post by JimP
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 16:19:21 +0000, gareth evans

Post by gareth evans
Historic software is usually like the soldier, never
dying but just simply fading away unless and until, that is,
someone versed in computer folklore attempts a resurrection.
Strange, then, the behaviour of Adobe, who are not just
discontinuing the support of their Flash utility, but
actively taking steps to stop it working at all a couple
of weeks into the New Year.
Already I am being prompted to uninstall it from my computers.
This is unfortunate because there are a lot of websites out there
that rely on Adobe Flash; websites that will be unusable shortly.
Particularly for me, the BBC Big Welsh Challenge is something
that I return to again and again in my repeated desultory
attempts to learn the iaith fy nadhau. (The language
of my fathers)

Heinlein said it best, 'Never underestimate the power of human
stupidity'.
If they are actually concerned about Adobe flash, they could fix it.
This appears more of of a 'gotcha' than anything else.

I'm not sure they think they can fix it.
I believe Flash has been a security risk more than once.
I'm pretty sure HTML5 is an adequate replacement.

Adobe can still market authoring tools which is where they make
their money.

[Peter Flass]

Post by Dan Espen

Post by JimP
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 16:19:21 +0000, gareth evans

Post by gareth evans
Historic software is usually like the soldier, never
dying but just simply fading away unless and until, that is,
someone versed in computer folklore attempts a resurrection.
Strange, then, the behaviour of Adobe, who are not just
discontinuing the support of their Flash utility, but
actively taking steps to stop it working at all a couple
of weeks into the New Year.
Already I am being prompted to uninstall it from my computers.
This is unfortunate because there are a lot of websites out there
that rely on Adobe Flash; websites that will be unusable shortly.
Particularly for me, the BBC Big Welsh Challenge is something
that I return to again and again in my repeated desultory
attempts to learn the iaith fy nadhau. (The language
of my fathers)

Heinlein said it best, 'Never underestimate the power of human
stupidity'.
If they are actually concerned about Adobe flash, they could fix it.
This appears more of of a 'gotcha' than anything else.

I'm not sure they think they can fix it.
I believe Flash has been a security risk more than once.
I'm pretty sure HTML5 is an adequate replacement.
Adobe can still market authoring tools which is where they make
their money.

Never liked Flash anyway. A number of platforms I use either didn’t have
Flash or had a lagging version. Usually it did things I didn’t want or
need, and it seemed like sites were forcing you into Flash without
providing an alternative. I’m more than happy to see it go, especially in
favor of a standard product.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 11:16:15 -0700

Post by Peter Flass
Never liked Flash anyway. A number of platforms I use either didn’t have
Flash or had a lagging version. Usually it did things I didn’t want or
need, and it seemed like sites were forcing you into Flash without
providing an alternative. I’m more than happy to see it go, especially in
favor of a standard product.

Quite so.

[Chris]

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 11:16:15 -0700

Post by Peter Flass
Never liked Flash anyway. A number of platforms I use either didn’t have
Flash or had a lagging version. Usually it did things I didn’t want or
need, and it seemed like sites were forcing you into Flash without
providing an alternative. I’m more than happy to see it go, especially in
favor of a standard product.

Quite so.

I complained to the BBC several years ago about their use of flash for
their videos, but was ignored at the time. Still the same problem, but
looks like they will be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st
century, at last, and will have no cholce but to go html5. Good job
Adobe.

Flash has been a major security risk for years and would never install
it on any system here...

Chris

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by Chris

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 11:16:15 -0700

Post by Peter Flass
Never liked Flash anyway. A number of platforms I use either didn’t have
Flash or had a lagging version. Usually it did things I didn’t want or
need, and it seemed like sites were forcing you into Flash without
providing an alternative. I’m more than happy to see it go, especially in
favor of a standard product.

    Quite so.

I complained to the BBC several years ago about their use of flash for
their videos, but was ignored at the time. Still the same problem, but
looks like they will be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st
century, at last, and will have no cholce but to go html5. Good job
Adobe.

Adobe has been forced to remove it, some say. A letter by Steve Jobs
saying that Apple products would not support Flash (dead link:
<https://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/>). Then on 2015 Chrome
blocked flash videos, and Firefox did something.

Post by Chris
Flash has been a major security risk for years and would never install
it on any system here...

My bank used it.

[Andreas Kohlbach]

Post by Chris
I complained to the BBC several years ago about their use of flash for
their videos, but was ignored at the time. Still the same problem, but
looks like they will be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st
century, at last, and will have no cholce but to go html5. Good job
Adobe.

No company cares to change their technology, until they are forced to.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle/announcements/adobe-flash-end-of-support

Similar to vehicles with Diesel engines. Especially after in European
cities (and China since decades) the air became unbreatable, a law was
passed to exclude these from entering the cities. That was further fueled
by the Volkswagen emissions scandal
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal>. Since that
car manufacturers (except for trucks) stopped offering cars with Diesel
engines.

People in North America might not have experienced the air pollution by
Diesel cars, as there were only a few manufacturers (or was it even only
Volkswagen?) offering Diesel vehicles. Still it was a big issue in
Europe, prompting manufacturers to only offer gasoline engines, with some
even abandon these in favor of only offering electric vehicles, like
Volvo:

| In July 2017, Volvo announced that new models launched from 2019 onward
| would be fully electric or hybrid-electric, heralding the end of
| production of nearly a century of Volvo vehicles powered solely by the
| internal combustion engine.

Source Wikipedia.

[Bob Eager]

Post by Andreas Kohlbach
Similar to vehicles with Diesel engines. Especially after in European
cities (and China since decades) the air became unbreatable, a law was
passed to exclude these from entering the cities.

Not true in the UK. Although there is one tiny area (not in the centre)
which limits petrol and diesel vehicles at certain hours.

All diesel cars can enter, but there is a £12.50 daily charge if they
aren't Euro 6. Proportionate charges for larger vehicles.

[Andy Burns]

That was further fueled by the Volkswagen emissions scandal
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal>. Since
that car manufacturers (except for trucks) stopped offering cars with
Diesel engines.

"Stopped" is overstating it, yes some brands have stopped (e.g. porsche)
or say they will stop within 12 months (e.g. honda) but many others
(audi, ford, vauxhall, vw, mercedes, bmw, peugeot, renault, volvo,
jaguar) still sell diesels ...

[Peter Flass]

Post by Andreas Kohlbach

Post by Chris
I complained to the BBC several years ago about their use of flash for
their videos, but was ignored at the time. Still the same problem, but
looks like they will be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st
century, at last, and will have no cholce but to go html5. Good job
Adobe.

No company cares to change their technology, until they are forced to.
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle/announcements/adobe-flash-end-of-support
Similar to vehicles with Diesel engines. Especially after in European
cities (and China since decades) the air became unbreatable, a law was
passed to exclude these from entering the cities. That was further fueled
by the Volkswagen emissions scandal
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal>. Since that
car manufacturers (except for trucks) stopped offering cars with Diesel
engines.
People in North America might not have experienced the air pollution by
Diesel cars, as there were only a few manufacturers (or was it even only
Volkswagen?) offering Diesel vehicles.

I think Mercedes has, or had, a diesel.

Post by Andreas Kohlbach
Still it was a big issue in
Europe, prompting manufacturers to only offer gasoline engines, with some
even abandon these in favor of only offering electric vehicles, like
| In July 2017, Volvo announced that new models launched from 2019 onward
| would be fully electric or hybrid-electric, heralding the end of
| production of nearly a century of Volvo vehicles powered solely by the
| internal combustion engine.
Source Wikipedia.

Hybrids would work. I’m upset that governments pushing electrics don’t stop
a second and think about all the people who don’t have access to a charging
station st work and live in a condo or apartment and hence can’t install
one at home.

[Dan Espen]

Post by Peter Flass

Post by Andreas Kohlbach

Post by Chris
I complained to the BBC several years ago about their use of flash for
their videos, but was ignored at the time. Still the same problem, but
looks like they will be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st
century, at last, and will have no cholce but to go html5. Good job
Adobe.

No company cares to change their technology, until they are forced to.
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle/announcements/adobe-flash-end-of-support
Similar to vehicles with Diesel engines. Especially after in European
cities (and China since decades) the air became unbreatable, a law was
passed to exclude these from entering the cities. That was further fueled
by the Volkswagen emissions scandal
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal>. Since that
car manufacturers (except for trucks) stopped offering cars with Diesel
engines.
People in North America might not have experienced the air pollution by
Diesel cars, as there were only a few manufacturers (or was it even only
Volkswagen?) offering Diesel vehicles.

I think Mercedes has, or had, a diesel.

Post by Andreas Kohlbach
Still it was a big issue in
Europe, prompting manufacturers to only offer gasoline engines, with some
even abandon these in favor of only offering electric vehicles, like
| In July 2017, Volvo announced that new models launched from 2019 onward
| would be fully electric or hybrid-electric, heralding the end of
| production of nearly a century of Volvo vehicles powered solely by the
| internal combustion engine.
Source Wikipedia.

Hybrids would work. I’m upset that governments pushing electrics don’t stop
a second and think about all the people who don’t have access to a charging
station st work and live in a condo or apartment and hence can’t install
one at home.

As electrics get more and more common, apartment and condo dwellers will
have access at home and at work. It's pretty simple to build a charging
station, they're already pretty common and that will only increase.

The last place I worked had charging stations years ago.

There's no reason all those parking meters can't also be charging stations.

[J. Clarke]

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Peter Flass

Post by Andreas Kohlbach

Post by Chris
I complained to the BBC several years ago about their use of flash for
their videos, but was ignored at the time. Still the same problem, but
looks like they will be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st
century, at last, and will have no cholce but to go html5. Good job
Adobe.

No company cares to change their technology, until they are forced to.
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle/announcements/adobe-flash-end-of-support
Similar to vehicles with Diesel engines. Especially after in European
cities (and China since decades) the air became unbreatable, a law was
passed to exclude these from entering the cities. That was further fueled
by the Volkswagen emissions scandal
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal>. Since that
car manufacturers (except for trucks) stopped offering cars with Diesel
engines.
People in North America might not have experienced the air pollution by
Diesel cars, as there were only a few manufacturers (or was it even only
Volkswagen?) offering Diesel vehicles.

I think Mercedes has, or had, a diesel.

Post by Andreas Kohlbach
Still it was a big issue in
Europe, prompting manufacturers to only offer gasoline engines, with some
even abandon these in favor of only offering electric vehicles, like
| In July 2017, Volvo announced that new models launched from 2019 onward
| would be fully electric or hybrid-electric, heralding the end of
| production of nearly a century of Volvo vehicles powered solely by the
| internal combustion engine.
Source Wikipedia.

Hybrids would work. I’m upset that governments pushing electrics don’t stop
a second and think about all the people who don’t have access to a charging
station st work and live in a condo or apartment and hence can’t install
one at home.

As electrics get more and more common, apartment and condo dwellers will
have access at home and at work. It's pretty simple to build a charging
station, they're already pretty common and that will only increase.
The last place I worked had charging stations years ago.
There's no reason all those parking meters can't also be charging stations.

And what will that cost? You have to build new generating capacity,
tear up the streets to run power to all of them, and then they become
an ongoing maintenance issue.

I note that Hartford has gone to electronic parking meters that
require power--this has done away with a meter at every parking space,
instead you pay the meter, it gives you a piece of paper and you stick
that piece of paper in the car where it's visible to the cop.

[Dan Espen]

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen
There's no reason all those parking meters can't also be charging stations.

And what will that cost?

And why does that matter?

Are against clean air, economic expansion, improvements to
the environment, or cars that accelerate like rocket ships?

I've seen the new parking meters.
I still don't think it's a big deal to have lots of new charging
stations. Putting them at curbside where there used to be meters
seems like a reasonable way to go.

[J. Clarke]

Post by Dan Espen

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen
There's no reason all those parking meters can't also be charging stations.

And what will that cost?

And why does that matter?

Because somebody has to pay for it. This is the big problem with all
sorts of do-gooder programs. They never actually think about how
they're going to be paid for other than "the corporations" or "the
rich".

Post by Dan Espen
Are against clean air, economic expansion, improvements to
the environment, or cars that accelerate like rocket ships?

I'm against more taxes or increasing the national debt more than it
has already been increased.

Post by Dan Espen
I've seen the new parking meters.
I still don't think it's a big deal to have lots of new charging
stations. Putting them at curbside where there used to be meters
seems like a reasonable way to go.

If it was that easy then why don't they replace mechanical parking
meters 1 for 1 with electronic ones?

[Dan Espen]

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen
There's no reason all those parking meters can't also be charging stations.

And what will that cost?

And why does that matter?

Because somebody has to pay for it. This is the big problem with all
sorts of do-gooder programs. They never actually think about how
they're going to be paid for other than "the corporations" or "the
rich".

Okay, you're right.
We should never do good.

Happy now.

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen
Are against clean air, economic expansion, improvements to
the environment, or cars that accelerate like rocket ships?

I'm against more taxes or increasing the national debt more than it
has already been increased.

Oh, back to debt already, nope, take that back, that's heading toward
politics. Can't respond to the debt issue.

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen
I've seen the new parking meters.
I still don't think it's a big deal to have lots of new charging
stations. Putting them at curbside where there used to be meters
seems like a reasonable way to go.

If it was that easy then why don't they replace mechanical parking
meters 1 for 1 with electronic ones?

Well, they have. That's where there's an electric kiosk. So they
replaced multiple mechanical meters with an electric kiosk.
As to why they didn't make each meter electric? Silly question.
Mechanical works just as well and you don't need to run wires.

[J. Clarke]

Post by Dan Espen

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen
There's no reason all those parking meters can't also be charging stations.

And what will that cost?

And why does that matter?

Because somebody has to pay for it. This is the big problem with all
sorts of do-gooder programs. They never actually think about how
they're going to be paid for other than "the corporations" or "the
rich".

Okay, you're right.
We should never do good.
Happy now.

No. We should consider the costs of such programs instead of just
acting like "the rich" and "corporations" and "the national debt" are
all infinite wells.

Post by Dan Espen

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen
Are against clean air, economic expansion, improvements to
the environment, or cars that accelerate like rocket ships?

I'm against more taxes or increasing the national debt more than it
has already been increased.

Oh, back to debt already, nope, take that back, that's heading toward
politics. Can't respond to the debt issue.

Why not? It is at this moment the highest that it has ever been,
whether in current dollars, constant dollars, or a percentage of GDP.
How much higher can it go before the money runs out?

This isn't politics, it's basic accounting.

Post by Dan Espen

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen
I've seen the new parking meters.
I still don't think it's a big deal to have lots of new charging
stations. Putting them at curbside where there used to be meters
seems like a reasonable way to go.

If it was that easy then why don't they replace mechanical parking
meters 1 for 1 with electronic ones?

Well, they have. That's where there's an electric kiosk. So they
replaced multiple mechanical meters with an electric kiosk.
As to why they didn't make each meter electric? Silly question.
Mechanical works just as well and you don't need to run wires.

Your argument is that we can _easily_ add a 40 amp 240v electrical
circuit to the location where every mechanical parking meter once
stood. The cities have not chosen to do the much easier task of
adding a fraction of an amp low voltage circuit to each such location,
instead going for one centralized kiosk for each block or half-block.
So what leads you to believe that the 40 amp 240v circuit at each
location is _easy_?

One of the frustrating things about trying to have a conversation with
do-gooders is that one has the impression that they live under a rock
and have never actually seen the real world.

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen
I've seen the new parking meters.
I still don't think it's a big deal to have lots of new charging
stations. Putting them at curbside where there used to be meters
seems like a reasonable way to go.

If it was that easy then why don't they replace mechanical parking
meters 1 for 1 with electronic ones?

Well, they have. That's where there's an electric kiosk. So they
replaced multiple mechanical meters with an electric kiosk.
As to why they didn't make each meter electric? Silly question.
Mechanical works just as well and you don't need to run wires.

Your argument is that we can _easily_ add a 40 amp 240v electrical
circuit to the location where every mechanical parking meter once
stood. The cities have not chosen to do the much easier task of
adding a fraction of an amp low voltage circuit to each such location,
instead going for one centralized kiosk for each block or half-block.
So what leads you to believe that the 40 amp 240v circuit at each
location is _easy_?

No, that reasoning is flawed.

The cost-benefit relationship of wiring a low current supply for each
meter is bad. The revenue from each post is too low to compensate for
the cost of the wiring.

However, with charging spots things change: there will be a price for
charging the car, which will eventually pay the installation cost.

Post by J. Clarke
One of the frustrating things about trying to have a conversation with
do-gooders is that one has the impression that they live under a rock
and have never actually seen the real world.

Maybe you do not see the whole picture :-p

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 15:10:28 -0500

Post by J. Clarke
Because somebody has to pay for it. This is the big problem with all
sorts of do-gooder programs. They never actually think about how
they're going to be paid for other than "the corporations" or "the
rich".

Erm the car owners pay for it when they buy the electricity from
them at a premium rate (which still works out at a fraction of the cost of
petrol or diesel per mile). OK someone has to raise the capital, collect
the steady income and make the repayments but ultimately the users wind
up paying just like toll roads.

This has started to happen here, at first the charging points in
municipal car parks were free to use (government funded to encourage
adoption). Now they are only free at a slow charging rate, for anything fast
enough to be worth the bother they cost well over the price of the
electricity thus funding the network and the free slow charge service (at
least that's the idea I haven't seen the books to see if the sums add up).

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 07:36:08 -0700

Post by Peter Flass
Hybrids would work. I’m upset that governments pushing electrics don’t
stop a second and think about all the people who don’t have access to a
charging station st work and live in a condo or apartment and hence can’t
install one at home.

If you have a place to park the car then a charging station can be
provided there. The reduced power consumption of street lights from orange
Sodium to white LED probably means there's nearly enough power distribution
capacity in urban streets to provide low rate chargers for all certainly in
the right ballpark.

[danny burstein]

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
If you have a place to park the car then a charging station can be
provided there. The reduced power consumption of street lights from orange
Sodium to white LED probably means there's nearly enough power distribution
capacity in urban streets to provide low rate chargers for all certainly in
the right ballpark.

ummm... you're off by quite a large margin.

That overhead streetlight was using, perhaps, 200 watts (usually less)
of high pressure sodium. Now down to, maybe, 75 watts LED.

Even is we grant that there's a direct 20 amp line to
each streetlight (usually not.. more likely a half
dozen share the wire), that's 2.4 kw available,
or 2 kw after the lamp's own load.

Derate it by 20 percent for "continuous draw",
and that's 1.5 kw.

Now... each streetlight covers, let's say, ten
parking spaces, so that's 150 watts.

That'll give your car 1 kw-hr's worth of charging
for a typical overnight (or day...) parking.

Ain't nothing to laugh at, but it isn't much.

Now what _would_ be great is the parking lots
at electrified commuter rails. Tap off the
very high capacity catenary or third rail..

Get smarter chargers that can be shut down
when there's a train in that area, and then
come back on. So figure a 25% duty cycle
during rush hour, 50% rest of day, and 95%
on the overnight...

[Dan Espen]

Post by danny burstein

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
If you have a place to park the car then a charging station can be
provided there. The reduced power consumption of street lights from orange
Sodium to white LED probably means there's nearly enough power distribution
capacity in urban streets to provide low rate chargers for all certainly in
the right ballpark.

ummm... you're off by quite a large margin.

Without looking anything up, I think you're right.
But just about every road has power lines running down at least one side
of the road.

Should be trivial to provide charging stations just about everywhere.
For sure, heavier power lines will be needed as this goes on.
I still don't see a problem.

Before the lithium battery revolution started I always thought we'd see
either overhead or in the road charging strips that cars could hook up
to at speed. Now it doesn't look that will ever be necessary.

[Thomas Koenig]

Post by Dan Espen

Post by danny burstein

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
If you have a place to park the car then a charging station can be
provided there. The reduced power consumption of street lights from orange
Sodium to white LED probably means there's nearly enough power distribution
capacity in urban streets to provide low rate chargers for all certainly in
the right ballpark.

ummm... you're off by quite a large margin.

Without looking anything up, I think you're right.
But just about every road has power lines running down at least one side
of the road.
Should be trivial to provide charging stations just about everywhere.

"It works really well unless you try it".

Post by Dan Espen
For sure, heavier power lines will be needed as this goes on.

Never mind overloading the grid with something it was never designed
for, by a large factor.

Post by Dan Espen
I still don't see a problem.

Money is no object, right?

[Dan Espen]

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Dan Espen

Post by danny burstein

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
If you have a place to park the car then a charging station can be
provided there. The reduced power consumption of street lights from orange
Sodium to white LED probably means there's nearly enough power distribution
capacity in urban streets to provide low rate chargers for all certainly in
the right ballpark.

ummm... you're off by quite a large margin.

Without looking anything up, I think you're right.
But just about every road has power lines running down at least one side
of the road.
Should be trivial to provide charging stations just about everywhere.

"It works really well unless you try it".

Post by Dan Espen
For sure, heavier power lines will be needed as this goes on.

Never mind overloading the grid with something it was never designed
for, by a large factor.

What about heavier power lines don't you understand?

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Dan Espen
I still don't see a problem.

Money is no object, right?

Economic activity, creates wealth doesn't it?

Sounds like you don't think ANYTHING should be improved because it might
cost money.

[J. Clarke]

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Dan Espen

Post by danny burstein

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
If you have a place to park the car then a charging station can be
provided there. The reduced power consumption of street lights from orange
Sodium to white LED probably means there's nearly enough power distribution
capacity in urban streets to provide low rate chargers for all certainly in
the right ballpark.

ummm... you're off by quite a large margin.

Without looking anything up, I think you're right.
But just about every road has power lines running down at least one side
of the road.
Should be trivial to provide charging stations just about everywhere.

"It works really well unless you try it".

Post by Dan Espen
For sure, heavier power lines will be needed as this goes on.

Never mind overloading the grid with something it was never designed
for, by a large factor.

What about heavier power lines don't you understand?

What about paying for heavier power lines don't you understand?

However since you seem determined to go there:
A Level 2 charger, which can bring a Tesla Model 3 to a full charge in
about 8 hours, draws 40 amps at 220V.

So let's say we're all electric. Say everybody charges their car
every night. 270 million cars times 220v times 40 amps = 2,376
gigawatts. US installed generating capacity is HALF that.

So do you still think it's just "heavier power lines"?

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Dan Espen
I still don't see a problem.

Money is no object, right?

Economic activity, creates wealth doesn't it?
Sounds like you don't think ANYTHING should be improved because it might
cost money.

I don't think we should spend VAST amounts of money that we don't have
just because somebody thinks it might "do good".

You can't spend your way out of poverty.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 17:24:42 -0500

Post by J. Clarke
A Level 2 charger, which can bring a Tesla Model 3 to a full charge in
about 8 hours, draws 40 amps at 220V.

That full charge provides a range of around 350 miles (a little
more according to the specs).

Post by J. Clarke
So let's say we're all electric. Say everybody charges their car
every night.

Why does everyone suddenly start driving 350 miles a day ? I think
you'll find that around a tenth of that is a more reasonable daily average.

Post by J. Clarke
270 million cars times 220v times 40 amps = 2,376
gigawatts. US installed generating capacity is HALF that.

Or five times a more reasonable estimate meaning that a 20%
increase would cover it - which doesn't sound unreasonable even if you
push it to 30% and have people averaging 50 miles a day. All this assumes
that a Tesla model 3 is the last word in efficiency which I rather doubt
even if it is among the best today.

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Dan Espen

Post by danny burstein

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
If you have a place to park the car then a charging station can be
provided there. The reduced power consumption of street lights from orange
Sodium to white LED probably means there's nearly enough power distribution
capacity in urban streets to provide low rate chargers for all certainly in
the right ballpark.

ummm... you're off by quite a large margin.

Without looking anything up, I think you're right.
But just about every road has power lines running down at least one side
of the road.
Should be trivial to provide charging stations just about everywhere.

"It works really well unless you try it".

Post by Dan Espen
For sure, heavier power lines will be needed as this goes on.

Never mind overloading the grid with something it was never designed
for, by a large factor.

What about heavier power lines don't you understand?

What about paying for heavier power lines don't you understand?

You forget that the car owner will have to pay extra for that
electricity. It is happening already around here. The owners of the fast
charging spots make money out of the installation.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Wed, 30 Dec 2020 12:53:35 +0100

Post by Carlos E.R.
You forget that the car owner will have to pay extra for that
electricity. It is happening already around here. The owners of the fast
charging spots make money out of the installation.

Continue this trend and the net effect is to move income from the
government (fuel taxes) to the charge point providers (profits). Those who
disapprove of government spending should applaud - the rest of us should
worry a little about where the shortfall will be taken from and hope that
it will come primarily from taxing the charge points.

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Wed, 30 Dec 2020 12:53:35 +0100

Post by Carlos E.R.
You forget that the car owner will have to pay extra for that
electricity. It is happening already around here. The owners of the fast
charging spots make money out of the installation.

Continue this trend and the net effect is to move income from the
government (fuel taxes) to the charge point providers (profits). Those who
disapprove of government spending should applaud - the rest of us should
worry a little about where the shortfall will be taken from and hope that
it will come primarily from taxing the charge points.

Yes, there will have to be a tax change somewhere. Not yet, not significant.

[Bud Spencer]

Post by J. Clarke
I don't think we should spend VAST amounts of money that we don't have
just because somebody thinks it might "do good".

Oh, but we already are thanks to all those climate-zealots like greta and
rest of the zombies. Not only that ... western dietary guidelines, all
this nondemic nonsense and such are surely coming with a BIG pricetag!

What comes to electric cars, those things surely aren't good for the
environment. Just like those wind powerplants they erect all over to ruin
nature.

Just to throw in couple things ...

[J. Clarke]

Post by Bud Spencer

Post by J. Clarke
I don't think we should spend VAST amounts of money that we don't have
just because somebody thinks it might "do good".

Oh, but we already are thanks to all those climate-zealots like greta and
rest of the zombies. Not only that ... western dietary guidelines, all
this nondemic nonsense and such are surely coming with a BIG pricetag!

You know, that is something that strikes me as weird. Don't get me
wrong, I like Greta for standing up for what she believes in and
admire her ability to get people to listen to her. But in what
universe does a 15 year old know enough about anything other than the
life of a 15 year old for their opinion to be worth listening to when
deciding national environmental policy?

Post by Bud Spencer
What comes to electric cars, those things surely aren't good for the
environment.

That's actually a good question. They do cut down on emissions while
in operation, for a variety of reasons, but how energy use in
construction of them compares I have no idea. My gut says that they
have about the same environmental signature in that regard as
conventional cars but my gut may be completely off-base.

Post by Bud Spencer
Just like those wind powerplants they erect all over to ruin
nature.

That actually points out the insanity of the environmental movement.
One group of greenies agitates to get windmills built and then when
they start another group of greenies file suit to block the
construction.

Post by Bud Spencer
Just to throw in couple things ...

[Thomas Koenig]

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Dan Espen

Post by danny burstein

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
If you have a place to park the car then a charging station can be
provided there. The reduced power consumption of street lights from orange
Sodium to white LED probably means there's nearly enough power distribution
capacity in urban streets to provide low rate chargers for all certainly in
the right ballpark.

ummm... you're off by quite a large margin.

Without looking anything up, I think you're right.
But just about every road has power lines running down at least one side
of the road.
Should be trivial to provide charging stations just about everywhere.

"It works really well unless you try it".

Post by Dan Espen
For sure, heavier power lines will be needed as this goes on.

Never mind overloading the grid with something it was never designed
for, by a large factor.

What about heavier power lines don't you understand?

What do they cost?

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Dan Espen
I still don't see a problem.

Money is no object, right?

Economic activity, creates wealth doesn't it?

Somebody has to pay for it.

Post by Dan Espen
Sounds like you don't think ANYTHING should be improved because it might
cost money.

Nope. I just don't think that advocating sucha huge plan without the
foggiest idea of what it would cost is a bad idea.

[Vir Campestris]

Post by Thomas Koenig
Never mind overloading the grid with something it was never designed
for, by a large factor.

And that's the kicker.

Worst case the grid in the UK has to fire up all its open cycle gas
turbines, all its coal stations, and still import power from Europe to
keep things running. Even though all the "interruptible" heavy users
have been told to shut down.

It happenned earlier this winter - a windless day over the whole of the
UK, and of course being winter it's dark a lot, so solar is doing 3/5ths
of FA. Especially at the usual peak which is when people get home from
work, put on the heating and start cooking.

Luckily the calm area didn't cover the rest of Europe - which
occasionally it does.

There just isn't the spare _generation_ capacity in the UK to feed
widespread adoption of electric cars.

I'll be surprised if the situation is different anywhere else. In 2018
Wiki tells me the US used about 4000TWh of electricity. That's about
1.4E19 joules.

It also used 142.71 billion gallons of gasoline at 120k BTu per gallon
(why can't you go metric) which is about 1.8E19 joules.

So more was used in gasoline than the entire electric output of the
country. Does the generation system have that much headroom? And would
it help much to burn the oil in power stations, not cars?

Andy

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by Vir Campestris

Post by Thomas Koenig
Never mind overloading the grid with something it was never designed
for, by a large factor.

And that's the kicker.
Worst case the grid in the UK has to fire up all its open cycle gas
turbines, all its coal stations, and still import power from Europe to
keep things running. Even though all the "interruptible" heavy users
have been told to shut down.
It happenned earlier this winter - a windless day over the whole of the
UK, and of course being winter it's dark a lot, so solar is doing 3/5ths
of FA. Especially at the usual peak which is when people get home from
work, put on the heating and start cooking.
Luckily the calm area didn't cover the rest of Europe - which
occasionally it does.
There just isn't the spare _generation_ capacity in the UK to feed
widespread adoption of electric cars.

Install it. Simple.

[Thomas Koenig]

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by Vir Campestris
There just isn't the spare _generation_ capacity in the UK to feed
widespread adoption of electric cars.

Install it. Simple.

Which kind?

Wind / solar: You don't get to charge your car if it is dark and
there is no wind (the dreaded "Dunkelflaute") in German.

Reserve gas power stations: These emit a factor of two more CO2
than combined cycle power stations per kWh (30% efficiency vs >
60% efficiency) because the combined cycle is _slow_ in adjusting to
shifting demands. So, if your wind / solar drops, you need those.

If using wind / solar / reserve gas actually reduces CO2 emissions
vs. combined cycle gas is anybody's guess, from what I have read, the
balance is slightly towards more CO2 emission.

Nuclar: Probably better.

Nuclear combined with hydrogen generation from excess wind and
solar power using steam electrolysis: Much better.

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by Vir Campestris
There just isn't the spare _generation_ capacity in the UK to feed
widespread adoption of electric cars.

Install it. Simple.

Which kind?

Whichever. Either they install it, of they buy from the EU - which is
not a bad idea, IMHO :-P

[Thomas Koenig]

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by Vir Campestris
There just isn't the spare _generation_ capacity in the UK to feed
widespread adoption of electric cars.

Install it. Simple.

Which kind?

Whichever. Either they install it, of they buy from the EU - which is
not a bad idea, IMHO :-P

You may be not aware that the UK grid is not synchronized with
the synchronous grid of Continental Europe.

Of course, Poland installed quadrature booster in order to decoulple
itself from Germany's wild fluctuations due to wind and solar power.

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by Vir Campestris
There just isn't the spare _generation_ capacity in the UK to feed
widespread adoption of electric cars.

Install it. Simple.

Which kind?

Whichever. Either they install it, of they buy from the EU - which is
not a bad idea, IMHO :-P

You may be not aware that the UK grid is not synchronized with
the synchronous grid of Continental Europe.

No, I wasn't :-o

Goes to the Yet Another British Thing department.

Well, use DC transmission under the channel, which is sensible anyway.

Post by Thomas Koenig
Of course, Poland installed quadrature booster in order to decoulple
itself from Germany's wild fluctuations due to wind and solar power.

Fluctuations in frequency? They have to use DC-AC converters on both
those sources.

[John Levine]

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by Thomas Koenig
You may be not aware that the UK grid is not synchronized with
the synchronous grid of Continental Europe.

No, I wasn't :-o
Goes to the Yet Another British Thing department.
Well, use DC transmission under the channel, which is sensible anyway.

That's what they use in the cables that connect the UK with France, Belgium,
and France, and the one under construction to Norway. It seems to be a solved problem.

[danny burstein]

In <rshub3$9pa$***@newsreader4.netcologne.de> Thomas Koenig <***@netcologne.de> writes:

[snip]

Post by Thomas Koenig
You may be not aware that the UK grid is not synchronized with
the synchronous grid of Continental Europe.

A relatively simple switchover to using HVDC transmission
cables and infrastructure for the connections between
the UK and the civilized world would take care of that.

[Thomas Koenig]

Post by danny burstein
[snip]

Post by Thomas Koenig
You may be not aware that the UK grid is not synchronized with
the synchronous grid of Continental Europe.

A relatively simple switchover to using HVDC transmission
cables and infrastructure for the connections between
the UK and the civilized world would take care of that.

The problem isn't the switch itself, it is the massive power that
would have to be transferred between the two networks when
the frequency fluctuates due to power fluctuations on either
side.

There simply isn't enough cable capacity across the channel to do so.

[Elliott Roper]

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by danny burstein
[snip]

Post by Thomas Koenig
You may be not aware that the UK grid is not synchronized with
the synchronous grid of Continental Europe.

A relatively simple switchover to using HVDC transmission
cables and infrastructure for the connections between
the UK and the civilized world would take care of that.

The problem isn't the switch itself, it is the massive power that
would have to be transferred between the two networks when
the frequency fluctuates due to power fluctuations on either
side.
There simply isn't enough cable capacity across the channel to do so.

At this moment the UK is importing 2GW from France across a 1 million volt DC
cable. That represents 5% of current UK load.
It is close to the capacity of the cable.

You might like to check this site for more detail
http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/index.php

[Elliott Roper]

Post by Thomas Koenig
The problem isn't the switch itself, it is the massive power that
would have to be transferred between the two networks when
the frequency fluctuates due to power fluctuations on either
side.
There simply isn't enough cable capacity across the channel to do so.

Adding to my recent post. Sorry.

I did not notice we have a new 1GW link from Belgium
The French ICT and the new NEMO are currently supplying roughly the same a
the UK's combined wind and solar output. Wind is about 6% of its installe
capacity and solar is operating at close to zero near sunset with the countr
covered in fog.

It all goes to show what a ridiculous half-baked energy system the UK has.

You might also see from the graphs at gridwatch, that OCGT is very rarel
needed. CCGT does a fair job of filling in the shortfall of renewables in
timely manner.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Wed, 30 Dec 2020 11:31:07 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Thomas Koenig
Nuclear combined with hydrogen generation from excess wind and
solar power using steam electrolysis: Much better.

This has much to recommend it in principle but hydrogen storage is
still tricky and the cycle efficiencies are pretty poor compared with
batteries. That's before you get to the hydrogen == Hindenburg perception
problem.

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Wed, 30 Dec 2020 11:31:07 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Thomas Koenig
Nuclear combined with hydrogen generation from excess wind and
solar power using steam electrolysis: Much better.

This has much to recommend it in principle but hydrogen storage is
still tricky and the cycle efficiencies are pretty poor compared with
batteries. That's before you get to the hydrogen == Hindenburg perception
problem.

I don't like the idea of massive hydrogen usage. It leaks and is lost
for ever from the Earth, for instance.

[John Levine]

Post by Carlos E.R.
I don't like the idea of massive hydrogen usage. It leaks and is lost
for ever from the Earth, for instance.

Hydrogen is indeed tricky to store and transport, but I wouldn't worry
about running out. You can find quite a lot of it in the world's oceans.

Also, free hydrogen in the atmosphere is not lost. As this article
notes, it reacts with oxygen and turns back into water. Are you
perhaps confusing it with helium?

https://www.caltech.edu/about/news/hydrogen-economy-might-impactearths-stratosphere-study-shows-722

[gareth evans]

Post by John Levine

Post by Carlos E.R.
I don't like the idea of massive hydrogen usage. It leaks and is lost
for ever from the Earth, for instance.

Hydrogen is indeed tricky to store and transport, but I wouldn't worry
about running out. You can find quite a lot of it in the world's oceans.
Also, free hydrogen in the atmosphere is not lost. As this article
notes, it reacts with oxygen and turns back into water. Are you
perhaps confusing it with helium?
https://www.caltech.edu/about/news/hydrogen-economy-might-impactearths-stratosphere-study-shows-722

But, talking of hydrogen, how do we get "buckets" of it without
having to use a lot of fossil fuels to generate the electricity
to separate it from the water?

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by John Levine

Post by Carlos E.R.
I don't like the idea of massive hydrogen usage. It leaks and is lost
for ever from the Earth, for instance.

Hydrogen is indeed tricky to store and transport, but I wouldn't worry
about running out. You can find quite a lot of it in the world's oceans.

Certainly, but it is still a finite quantity.

Post by John Levine
Also, free hydrogen in the atmosphere is not lost. As this article
notes, it reacts with oxygen and turns back into water.

Well, if it can react faster than escaping, then that would not be a
problem.

Post by John Levine
Are you
perhaps confusing it with helium?

No, that's different. Helium would also escape and there are not many
reserves.

Post by John Levine
https://www.caltech.edu/about/news/hydrogen-economy-might-impactearths-stratosphere-study-shows-722

Interesting. There are other impacts I was not aware of.

[Bud Spencer]

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by Vir Campestris
There just isn't the spare _generation_ capacity in the UK to feed
widespread adoption of electric cars.

Install it. Simple.

Which kind?
Wind / solar: You don't get to charge your car if it is dark and
there is no wind (the dreaded "Dunkelflaute") in German.
Reserve gas power stations: These emit a factor of two more CO2
than combined cycle power stations per kWh (30% efficiency vs >
60% efficiency) because the combined cycle is _slow_ in adjusting to
shifting demands. So, if your wind / solar drops, you need those.
If using wind / solar / reserve gas actually reduces CO2 emissions
vs. combined cycle gas is anybody's guess, from what I have read, the
balance is slightly towards more CO2 emission.
Nuclar: Probably better.
Nuclear combined with hydrogen generation from excess wind and
solar power using steam electrolysis: Much better.

And if we would have listened and embraced one Nikola Tesla and his
brilliance, we wouldn't have the need to thing about these matter. We woud
have free wireless energy everywhere. But no.

Like jp morgan said to Tesla "If we cannot put meter on it, we renot
interested!"

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by Bud Spencer

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by Vir Campestris
There just isn't the spare _generation_ capacity in the UK to feed
widespread adoption of electric cars.

Install it. Simple.

Which kind?
Wind / solar: You don't get to charge your car if it is dark and
there is no wind (the dreaded "Dunkelflaute") in German.
Reserve gas power stations: These emit a factor of two more CO2
than combined cycle power stations per kWh (30% efficiency vs >
60% efficiency) because the combined cycle is _slow_ in adjusting to
shifting demands.  So, if your wind / solar drops, you need those.
If using wind / solar / reserve gas actually reduces CO2 emissions
vs. combined cycle gas is anybody's guess, from what I have read, the
balance is slightly towards more CO2 emission.
Nuclar: Probably better.
Nuclear combined with hydrogen generation from excess wind and
solar power using steam electrolysis:  Much better.

And if we would have listened and embraced one Nikola Tesla and his
brilliance, we wouldn't have the need to thing about these matter. We
woud have free wireless energy everywhere. But no.
Like jp morgan said to Tesla "If we cannot put meter on it, we renot
interested!"

I believe that wireless energy is just smoke. Can not exist.

[Niklas Karlsson]

Post by Carlos E.R.
I believe that wireless energy is just smoke. Can not exist.

Well, microwave transmission exists. Of course, it has the drawback that
if you miss the receiver, you end up cooking whatever you hit instead.
Otherwise we could be getting power from the sun via satellites that can
use photovoltaics without the losses from filtering through the
atmosphere.

Niklas

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by Niklas Karlsson

Post by Carlos E.R.
I believe that wireless energy is just smoke. Can not exist.

Well, microwave transmission exists. Of course, it has the drawback that
if you miss the receiver, you end up cooking whatever you hit instead.
Otherwise we could be getting power from the sun via satellites that can
use photovoltaics without the losses from filtering through the
atmosphere.

It is still different than powering any device in the world (or a big
area) from the air filled with "waves".

[Niklas Karlsson]

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by Niklas Karlsson

Post by Carlos E.R.
I believe that wireless energy is just smoke. Can not exist.

Well, microwave transmission exists. Of course, it has the drawback that
if you miss the receiver, you end up cooking whatever you hit instead.
Otherwise we could be getting power from the sun via satellites that can
use photovoltaics without the losses from filtering through the
atmosphere.

It is still different than powering any device in the world (or a big
area) from the air filled with "waves".

Certainly.

Niklas

[JimP]

On Wed, 30 Dec 2020 15:13:57 +0100, "Carlos E.R."

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by Niklas Karlsson

Post by Carlos E.R.
I believe that wireless energy is just smoke. Can not exist.

Well, microwave transmission exists. Of course, it has the drawback that
if you miss the receiver, you end up cooking whatever you hit instead.
Otherwise we could be getting power from the sun via satellites that can
use photovoltaics without the losses from filtering through the
atmosphere.

It is still different than powering any device in the world (or a big
area) from the air filled with "waves".

Since I can download gigabytes of software I have paid for 'over the
air waves', your claim seems a bit odd.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Wed, 30 Dec 2020 10:14:20 -0600

Post by JimP
On Wed, 30 Dec 2020 15:13:57 +0100, "Carlos E.R."

Post by Carlos E.R.
It is still different than powering any device in the world (or a big
area) from the air filled with "waves".

Since I can download gigabytes of software I have paid for 'over the
air waves', your claim seems a bit odd.

That says nothing about being able to deliver useful amounts of
energy over long distances to arbitrary locations (nobody knows any way to
do this - two out of three applies) and a great deal about the
sophistication of our data transmission technology.

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by JimP
On Wed, 30 Dec 2020 15:13:57 +0100, "Carlos E.R."

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by Niklas Karlsson

Post by Carlos E.R.
I believe that wireless energy is just smoke. Can not exist.

Well, microwave transmission exists. Of course, it has the drawback that
if you miss the receiver, you end up cooking whatever you hit instead.
Otherwise we could be getting power from the sun via satellites that can
use photovoltaics without the losses from filtering through the
atmosphere.

It is still different than powering any device in the world (or a big
area) from the air filled with "waves".

Since I can download gigabytes of software I have paid for 'over the
air waves', your claim seems a bit odd.

Not at all. The power that you receive is negligible, and you have to
supply your own power, several orders of magnitude bigger, to be able to
read those signals you got over the air.


There are very few devices that are "powered over the air", and the
amounts of power they get are tiny.

The oldest is perhaps the "galena radio receiver". Needs an AM radio
station in the vicinity airing perhaps a megawatt of energy.

A modern device example are the "alarm tags" attached to goods at a
shop. The alarm sounds when they try to exit the door. They need an
archway to power them when near enough.

[J. Clarke]

Post by Niklas Karlsson

Post by Carlos E.R.
I believe that wireless energy is just smoke. Can not exist.

Well, microwave transmission exists. Of course, it has the drawback that
if you miss the receiver, you end up cooking whatever you hit instead.
Otherwise we could be getting power from the sun via satellites that can
use photovoltaics without the losses from filtering through the
atmosphere.

We could, and "cooking whatever you hit when you miss the reciever" is
not really the issue that opponents make it out to be. Size the
antennas so that the energy density on the ground is too low to be
harmful even with malicious action.

The main reason this hasn't been done is cost. If Starship actually
hits its cost and performance targets that obstacle potentially goes
away.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Wed, 30 Dec 2020 11:27:47 -0500

Post by J. Clarke
The main reason this hasn't been done is cost. If Starship actually
hits its cost and performance targets that obstacle potentially goes
away.

Indeed, if that thing does hit those targets it completely
transforms what is feasible to do in space and may well bring microwave or
optical (essentially boosters for ground based solar power installations)
power satellites into the competitive mix. Asteroids will likely come into
the resource picture too. It will also put everyone else out of the launch
business (especially if a thousand of them actually get built) - I expect
there are cheers in a number of boardrooms every time a prototype Starship
(terrible name) blows up unexpectedly.

[Bud Spencer]

Post by Carlos E.R.
I believe that wireless energy is just smoke. Can not exist.

Yet you charge your electric toothbrush via wireless induction ...

[Niklas Karlsson]

Post by Bud Spencer

Post by Carlos E.R.
I believe that wireless energy is just smoke. Can not exist.

Yet you charge your electric toothbrush via wireless induction ...

Good point. My phone also charges that way.

Niklas

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by Niklas Karlsson

Post by Bud Spencer

Post by Carlos E.R.
I believe that wireless energy is just smoke. Can not exist.

Yet you charge your electric toothbrush via wireless induction ...

Good point. My phone also charges that way.

Not at all. This effect can only be used at very short distances. I have
forgotten the formula that tells you how the transmitted power
diminishes with distance, but I guess it is cubic.

[J. Clarke]

Post by Bud Spencer

Post by Carlos E.R.
I believe that wireless energy is just smoke. Can not exist.

Yet you charge your electric toothbrush via wireless induction ...

When I was a kid I had a van de graaf that could light up a
flourescent tube several feet away. Was cool as Hell. We don't have
toys like that anymore.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Wed, 30 Dec 2020 11:33:45 -0500

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Bud Spencer

Post by Carlos E.R.
I believe that wireless energy is just smoke. Can not exist.

Yet you charge your electric toothbrush via wireless induction ...

When I was a kid I had a van de graaf that could light up a
flourescent tube several feet away. Was cool as Hell. We don't have
toys like that anymore.

Not unless you build your own - a Whimshurst is perhaps easier to
build at home - we used to have an 18 plate one at school, until the
authorities took it away, it could put a wicked charge on a brass doorknob
(DAMHIK).

[gareth evans]

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Not unless you build your own - a Whimshurst is perhaps easier to
build at home - we used to have an 18 plate one at school, until the
authorities took it away, it could put a wicked charge on a brass doorknob
(DAMHIK).

Even more if connected to Leyden Jars (Which is what condensers
used to be called before they in their turn were renamed
as capacitors)

[JimP]

On Wed, 30 Dec 2020 14:44:34 +0100, "Carlos E.R."

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by Bud Spencer

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by Vir Campestris
There just isn't the spare _generation_ capacity in the UK to feed
widespread adoption of electric cars.

Install it. Simple.

Which kind?
Wind / solar: You don't get to charge your car if it is dark and
there is no wind (the dreaded "Dunkelflaute") in German.
Reserve gas power stations: These emit a factor of two more CO2
than combined cycle power stations per kWh (30% efficiency vs >
60% efficiency) because the combined cycle is _slow_ in adjusting to
shifting demands.  So, if your wind / solar drops, you need those.
If using wind / solar / reserve gas actually reduces CO2 emissions
vs. combined cycle gas is anybody's guess, from what I have read, the
balance is slightly towards more CO2 emission.
Nuclar: Probably better.
Nuclear combined with hydrogen generation from excess wind and
solar power using steam electrolysis:  Much better.

And if we would have listened and embraced one Nikola Tesla and his
brilliance, we wouldn't have the need to thing about these matter. We
woud have free wireless energy everywhere. But no.
Like jp morgan said to Tesla "If we cannot put meter on it, we renot
interested!"

I believe that wireless energy is just smoke. Can not exist.

Its proven, JP Morgan didn't like it becasue he couldn't charge money
for it.

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by JimP
On Wed, 30 Dec 2020 14:44:34 +0100, "Carlos E.R."

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by Bud Spencer

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by Vir Campestris
There just isn't the spare _generation_ capacity in the UK to feed
widespread adoption of electric cars.

Install it. Simple.

Which kind?
Wind / solar: You don't get to charge your car if it is dark and
there is no wind (the dreaded "Dunkelflaute") in German.
Reserve gas power stations: These emit a factor of two more CO2
than combined cycle power stations per kWh (30% efficiency vs >
60% efficiency) because the combined cycle is _slow_ in adjusting to
shifting demands.  So, if your wind / solar drops, you need those.
If using wind / solar / reserve gas actually reduces CO2 emissions
vs. combined cycle gas is anybody's guess, from what I have read, the
balance is slightly towards more CO2 emission.
Nuclar: Probably better.
Nuclear combined with hydrogen generation from excess wind and
solar power using steam electrolysis:  Much better.

And if we would have listened and embraced one Nikola Tesla and his
brilliance, we wouldn't have the need to thing about these matter. We
woud have free wireless energy everywhere. But no.
Like jp morgan said to Tesla "If we cannot put meter on it, we renot
interested!"

I believe that wireless energy is just smoke. Can not exist.

Its proven, JP Morgan didn't like it becasue he couldn't charge money
for it.

Proven, where? I have not seen it, ever.

[maus]

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by Bud Spencer
And if we would have listened and embraced one Nikola Tesla and his
brilliance, we wouldn't have the need to thing about these matter. We
woud have free wireless energy everywhere. But no.
Like jp morgan said to Tesla "If we cannot put meter on it, we renot
interested!"

I believe that wireless energy is just smoke. Can not exist.

I am worried that it can.

[J. Clarke]

Post by maus

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by Bud Spencer
And if we would have listened and embraced one Nikola Tesla and his
brilliance, we wouldn't have the need to thing about these matter. We
woud have free wireless energy everywhere. But no.
Like jp morgan said to Tesla "If we cannot put meter on it, we renot
interested!"

I believe that wireless energy is just smoke. Can not exist.

I am worried that it can.

There isn't any question that it can. Quite a lot of energy is
transferred from the Sun to the Earth without a single wire in site.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Wed, 30 Dec 2020 15:19:54 +0200

Post by Bud Spencer
And if we would have listened and embraced one Nikola Tesla and his
brilliance, we wouldn't have the need to thing about these matter. We
woud have free wireless energy everywhere. But no.

Assuming (for the moment) that he actually could have delivered the
wireless transmission of electricity there was nothing about free
generation of electricity.

Post by Bud Spencer
Like jp morgan said to Tesla "If we cannot put meter on it, we renot
interested!"

Reasonable even if the transmission network is free and lossless
somebody has to pay for the fuel that generates the power and if the
transmission network provides no means to measure or control usage then
nobody will pay so effectively Tesla was asking JP Morgan to pay
everybody's electricity bill.

TANSTAAFL.

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Wed, 30 Dec 2020 15:19:54 +0200

Post by Bud Spencer
And if we would have listened and embraced one Nikola Tesla and his
brilliance, we wouldn't have the need to thing about these matter. We
woud have free wireless energy everywhere. But no.

Assuming (for the moment) that he actually could have delivered the
wireless transmission of electricity there was nothing about free
generation of electricity.

Post by Bud Spencer
Like jp morgan said to Tesla "If we cannot put meter on it, we renot
interested!"

Reasonable even if the transmission network is free and lossless
somebody has to pay for the fuel that generates the power and if the
transmission network provides no means to measure or control usage then
nobody will pay so effectively Tesla was asking JP Morgan to pay
everybody's electricity bill.

It could have been paid by taxes. As the TV tax in Britain :-)

No, it simply can not be built.

[J. Clarke]

On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 21:35:26 +0000, Vir Campestris

Post by Vir Campestris

Post by Thomas Koenig
Never mind overloading the grid with something it was never designed
for, by a large factor.

And that's the kicker.
Worst case the grid in the UK has to fire up all its open cycle gas
turbines, all its coal stations, and still import power from Europe to
keep things running. Even though all the "interruptible" heavy users
have been told to shut down.
It happenned earlier this winter - a windless day over the whole of the
UK, and of course being winter it's dark a lot, so solar is doing 3/5ths
of FA. Especially at the usual peak which is when people get home from
work, put on the heating and start cooking.
Luckily the calm area didn't cover the rest of Europe - which
occasionally it does.
There just isn't the spare _generation_ capacity in the UK to feed
widespread adoption of electric cars.
I'll be surprised if the situation is different anywhere else. In 2018
Wiki tells me the US used about 4000TWh of electricity. That's about
1.4E19 joules.
It also used 142.71 billion gallons of gasoline at 120k BTu per gallon
(why can't you go metric) which is about 1.8E19 joules.
So more was used in gasoline than the entire electric output of the
country. Does the generation system have that much headroom? And would
it help much to burn the oil in power stations, not cars?

Do-gooders will tell you that power stations are cleaner than cars.
What those same do-gooders don't seem to grasp is that to hit the IPCC
goals we can't just make something 5 or 10 percent more efficient, we
have to end the emission entirely.

And if every car in the US was electric and every one was plugged into
a level 2 charger at the same time, that would draw twice the current
installed generating capacity in the US.

[Peter Flass]

Post by Dan Espen

Post by danny burstein

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
If you have a place to park the car then a charging station can be
provided there. The reduced power consumption of street lights from orange
Sodium to white LED probably means there's nearly enough power distribution
capacity in urban streets to provide low rate chargers for all certainly in
the right ballpark.

ummm... you're off by quite a large margin.

Without looking anything up, I think you're right.
But just about every road has power lines running down at least one side
of the road.
Should be trivial to provide charging stations just about everywhere.
For sure, heavier power lines will be needed as this goes on.
I still don't see a problem.
Before the lithium battery revolution started I always thought we'd see
either overhead or in the road charging strips that cars could hook up
to at speed. Now it doesn't look that will ever be necessary.

It would just seem like before the government starts pushing everyone
toward electric cars they’d have a plan for installing enough charging
stations. This sounds like their ”plan” for COVID vaccinations, i.e. grand
vision but few details.

[J. Clarke]

On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 14:18:46 -0700, Peter Flass

Post by Peter Flass

Post by Dan Espen

Post by danny burstein

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
If you have a place to park the car then a charging station can be
provided there. The reduced power consumption of street lights from orange
Sodium to white LED probably means there's nearly enough power distribution
capacity in urban streets to provide low rate chargers for all certainly in
the right ballpark.

ummm... you're off by quite a large margin.

Without looking anything up, I think you're right.
But just about every road has power lines running down at least one side
of the road.
Should be trivial to provide charging stations just about everywhere.
For sure, heavier power lines will be needed as this goes on.
I still don't see a problem.
Before the lithium battery revolution started I always thought we'd see
either overhead or in the road charging strips that cars could hook up
to at speed. Now it doesn't look that will ever be necessary.

It would just seem like before the government starts pushing everyone
toward electric cars they’d have a plan for installing enough charging
stations. This sounds like their ”plan” for COVID vaccinations, i.e. grand
vision but few details.

Bingo. And cost doesn't matter because it's "only money". People who
say that have never had a bill they couldn't afford to pay.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 17:43:46 +0000 (UTC)

Post by danny burstein

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
If you have a place to park the car then a charging station can be
provided there. The reduced power consumption of street lights from
orange Sodium to white LED probably means there's nearly enough power
distribution capacity in urban streets to provide low rate chargers for
all certainly in the right ballpark.

ummm... you're off by quite a large margin.
That overhead streetlight was using, perhaps, 200 watts (usually less)
of high pressure sodium. Now down to, maybe, 75 watts LED.

I rather thought they were taking a lot more than that when they
were running sodium - seems not. Fair enough.

[Charlie Gibbs]

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 17:43:46 +0000 (UTC)

Post by danny burstein

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
If you have a place to park the car then a charging station can be
provided there. The reduced power consumption of street lights from
orange Sodium to white LED probably means there's nearly enough power
distribution capacity in urban streets to provide low rate chargers for
all certainly in the right ballpark.

ummm... you're off by quite a large margin.
That overhead streetlight was using, perhaps, 200 watts (usually less)
of high pressure sodium. Now down to, maybe, 75 watts LED.

I rather thought they were taking a lot more than that when they
were running sodium - seems not. Fair enough.

Sounds about right to me. We replaced 70-watt high-pressure sodium
wall packs in our hangar complex with 25-watt LED fixtures.
No plans for charging stations, though. :-)

[J. Clarke]

Post by Charlie Gibbs

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 17:43:46 +0000 (UTC)

Post by danny burstein

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
If you have a place to park the car then a charging station can be
provided there. The reduced power consumption of street lights from
orange Sodium to white LED probably means there's nearly enough power
distribution capacity in urban streets to provide low rate chargers for
all certainly in the right ballpark.

ummm... you're off by quite a large margin.
That overhead streetlight was using, perhaps, 200 watts (usually less)
of high pressure sodium. Now down to, maybe, 75 watts LED.

I rather thought they were taking a lot more than that when they
were running sodium - seems not. Fair enough.

Sounds about right to me. We replaced 70-watt high-pressure sodium
wall packs in our hangar complex with 25-watt LED fixtures.
No plans for charging stations, though. :-)

Do the LEDs give the same amount of light as the 200 watt sodium?

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 14:59:47 -0500

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Charlie Gibbs
Sounds about right to me. We replaced 70-watt high-pressure sodium
wall packs in our hangar complex with 25-watt LED fixtures.
No plans for charging stations, though. :-)

Do the LEDs give the same amount of light as the 200 watt sodium?

Possibly slightly fewer lumens - but in a decent spectrum which aids
visibility a lot more than the spiky spectrum of sodium lights.

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 14:59:47 -0500

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Charlie Gibbs
Sounds about right to me. We replaced 70-watt high-pressure sodium
wall packs in our hangar complex with 25-watt LED fixtures.
No plans for charging stations, though. :-)

Do the LEDs give the same amount of light as the 200 watt sodium?

Possibly slightly fewer lumens - but in a decent spectrum which aids
visibility a lot more than the spiky spectrum of sodium lights.

And they're far more directional. I used to have Na vapor in a light
a block away that would shine through the window at night. The replacement
LED illuminates only the street and sidewalks, not houses a block away.

As this was in San Jose, and San Jose used sodium vapor lights because
of the nearby Mt Hamilton observatory, the switch to more directional
lighting allowed the use of white streetlights instead of the yellow.

[Charlie Gibbs]

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Charlie Gibbs

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 17:43:46 +0000 (UTC)

Post by danny burstein

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
If you have a place to park the car then a charging station can be
provided there. The reduced power consumption of street lights from
orange Sodium to white LED probably means there's nearly enough power
distribution capacity in urban streets to provide low rate chargers for
all certainly in the right ballpark.

ummm... you're off by quite a large margin.
That overhead streetlight was using, perhaps, 200 watts (usually less)
of high pressure sodium. Now down to, maybe, 75 watts LED.

I rather thought they were taking a lot more than that when they
were running sodium - seems not. Fair enough.

Sounds about right to me. We replaced 70-watt high-pressure sodium
wall packs in our hangar complex with 25-watt LED fixtures.
No plans for charging stations, though. :-)

Do the LEDs give the same amount of light as the 200 watt sodium?

Dunno about 200-watt sodium, but our 25-watt LEDs give about as much
light as the 70-watt sodiums they replaced. And the light is white,
rather than orange, which is much nicer to look at.

I calculated that thanks to their lower power consumption, our hydro bills
will decrease enough that the LEDs will pay for themselves in 10 years.

[J. Clarke]

Post by Charlie Gibbs

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Charlie Gibbs

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 17:43:46 +0000 (UTC)

Post by danny burstein

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
If you have a place to park the car then a charging station can be
provided there. The reduced power consumption of street lights from
orange Sodium to white LED probably means there's nearly enough power
distribution capacity in urban streets to provide low rate chargers for
all certainly in the right ballpark.

ummm... you're off by quite a large margin.
That overhead streetlight was using, perhaps, 200 watts (usually less)
of high pressure sodium. Now down to, maybe, 75 watts LED.

I rather thought they were taking a lot more than that when they
were running sodium - seems not. Fair enough.

Sounds about right to me. We replaced 70-watt high-pressure sodium
wall packs in our hangar complex with 25-watt LED fixtures.
No plans for charging stations, though. :-)

Do the LEDs give the same amount of light as the 200 watt sodium?

Dunno about 200-watt sodium, but our 25-watt LEDs give about as much
light as the 70-watt sodiums they replaced. And the light is white,
rather than orange, which is much nicer to look at.

Is that measured output or subjective impression? Not
arguing--curious. When I compare advertised lumens I'm seeing roughly
equivalent for sodium and LED for a given power draw, however my
research has been at best casual.

Post by Charlie Gibbs
I calculated that thanks to their lower power consumption, our hydro bills
will decrease enough that the LEDs will pay for themselves in 10 years.

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Charlie Gibbs

Post by J. Clarke
Do the LEDs give the same amount of light as the 200 watt sodium?

Dunno about 200-watt sodium, but our 25-watt LEDs give about as much
light as the 70-watt sodiums they replaced. And the light is white,
rather than orange, which is much nicer to look at.

Is that measured output or subjective impression? Not
arguing--curious. When I compare advertised lumens I'm seeing roughly
equivalent for sodium and LED for a given power draw, however my
research has been at best casual.

Subjectively, the LED lights are brighter than the sodiums. Primarily
because most of light is directed downwards with the LEDs.

[Dave Garland]

Post by Andreas Kohlbach
People in North America might not have experienced the air pollution by
Diesel cars, as there were only a few manufacturers (or was it even only
Volkswagen?) offering Diesel vehicles.

Diesels were offered by a number of companies, including some US
makers. But they were never popular here (partly due to our domestic
fuel quality and availability, partly because some of the
US-manufactured engines were terrible).

[gareth evans]

Post by Dan Espen
I'm not sure they think they can fix it.
I believe Flash has been a security risk more than once.
I'm pretty sure HTML5 is an adequate replacement.

Even so, no reason to kill it and thereby destroy
historical sites.

[J. Clarke]

Post by Dan Espen

Post by JimP
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 16:19:21 +0000, gareth evans

Post by gareth evans
Historic software is usually like the soldier, never
dying but just simply fading away unless and until, that is,
someone versed in computer folklore attempts a resurrection.
Strange, then, the behaviour of Adobe, who are not just
discontinuing the support of their Flash utility, but
actively taking steps to stop it working at all a couple
of weeks into the New Year.
Already I am being prompted to uninstall it from my computers.
This is unfortunate because there are a lot of websites out there
that rely on Adobe Flash; websites that will be unusable shortly.
Particularly for me, the BBC Big Welsh Challenge is something
that I return to again and again in my repeated desultory
attempts to learn the iaith fy nadhau. (The language
of my fathers)

Heinlein said it best, 'Never underestimate the power of human
stupidity'.
If they are actually concerned about Adobe flash, they could fix it.
This appears more of of a 'gotcha' than anything else.

I'm not sure they think they can fix it.
I believe Flash has been a security risk more than once.
I'm pretty sure HTML5 is an adequate replacement.
Adobe can still market authoring tools which is where they make
their money.

It's not like this is news to anybody. Adobe announced EOL for Flash
in July 2017 and they've been advertising the fact all over the place.
It isn't just Adobe involved in this--the major browser developers are
removing Flash support as well.

In any case there is an open source project, "ruffle", that is
supposed to be able to replace Flash Player transparently--whether and
how well it works I have no idea.

<https://ruffle.rs/>

[Peter Flass]

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen

Post by JimP
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 16:19:21 +0000, gareth evans

Post by gareth evans
Historic software is usually like the soldier, never
dying but just simply fading away unless and until, that is,
someone versed in computer folklore attempts a resurrection.
Strange, then, the behaviour of Adobe, who are not just
discontinuing the support of their Flash utility, but
actively taking steps to stop it working at all a couple
of weeks into the New Year.
Already I am being prompted to uninstall it from my computers.
This is unfortunate because there are a lot of websites out there
that rely on Adobe Flash; websites that will be unusable shortly.
Particularly for me, the BBC Big Welsh Challenge is something
that I return to again and again in my repeated desultory
attempts to learn the iaith fy nadhau. (The language
of my fathers)

Heinlein said it best, 'Never underestimate the power of human
stupidity'.
If they are actually concerned about Adobe flash, they could fix it.
This appears more of of a 'gotcha' than anything else.

I'm not sure they think they can fix it.
I believe Flash has been a security risk more than once.
I'm pretty sure HTML5 is an adequate replacement.
Adobe can still market authoring tools which is where they make
their money.

It's not like this is news to anybody. Adobe announced EOL for Flash
in July 2017 and they've been advertising the fact all over the place.
It isn't just Adobe involved in this--the major browser developers are
removing Flash support as well.
In any case there is an open source project, "ruffle", that is
supposed to be able to replace Flash Player transparently--whether and
how well it works I have no idea.
<https://ruffle.rs/>

.rs TLD is Serbia. Hate to be prejudiced, but do you trust software from
Serbia?

[J. Clarke]

On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 15:53:03 -0700, Peter Flass

Post by Peter Flass

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen

Post by JimP
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 16:19:21 +0000, gareth evans

Post by gareth evans
Historic software is usually like the soldier, never
dying but just simply fading away unless and until, that is,
someone versed in computer folklore attempts a resurrection.
Strange, then, the behaviour of Adobe, who are not just
discontinuing the support of their Flash utility, but
actively taking steps to stop it working at all a couple
of weeks into the New Year.
Already I am being prompted to uninstall it from my computers.
This is unfortunate because there are a lot of websites out there
that rely on Adobe Flash; websites that will be unusable shortly.
Particularly for me, the BBC Big Welsh Challenge is something
that I return to again and again in my repeated desultory
attempts to learn the iaith fy nadhau. (The language
of my fathers)

Heinlein said it best, 'Never underestimate the power of human
stupidity'.
If they are actually concerned about Adobe flash, they could fix it.
This appears more of of a 'gotcha' than anything else.

I'm not sure they think they can fix it.
I believe Flash has been a security risk more than once.
I'm pretty sure HTML5 is an adequate replacement.
Adobe can still market authoring tools which is where they make
their money.

It's not like this is news to anybody. Adobe announced EOL for Flash
in July 2017 and they've been advertising the fact all over the place.
It isn't just Adobe involved in this--the major browser developers are
removing Flash support as well.
In any case there is an open source project, "ruffle", that is
supposed to be able to replace Flash Player transparently--whether and
how well it works I have no idea.
<https://ruffle.rs/>

.rs TLD is Serbia. Hate to be prejudiced, but do you trust software from
Serbia?

It's open source. Whether anybody has actually ground through the
code for backdoors and whatnot I have no idea.

[Jorgen Grahn]

...

Post by Peter Flass

Post by J. Clarke
In any case there is an open source project, "ruffle", that is
supposed to be able to replace Flash Player transparently--whether and
how well it works I have no idea.
<https://ruffle.rs/>

.rs TLD is Serbia. Hate to be prejudiced, but do you trust software from
Serbia?

It /does/ sound a bit shady, but chances are a programmer from Serbia
has more in common with a US programmer than with his own government.

/Jorgen

[Bud Spencer]

Post by Jorgen Grahn

Post by Peter Flass
.rs TLD is Serbia. Hate to be prejudiced, but do you trust software from
Serbia?

It /does/ sound a bit shady, but chances are a programmer from Serbia
has more in common with a US programmer than with his own government.

Seems that crÚme de la crÚme of mental midgets are gathering ... Salty and
sour whiners unite!

Or are your liberal-soy-lard-arses so butthurt that Serbs were one of the
original ANTIFA ... you know, before it was mandatory to suck soros' scaly
pecker and BOATILAS ...

What ever it is, keep up the good work!

[Peter Flass]

Post by Jorgen Grahn

Post by Peter Flass
.rs TLD is Serbia. Hate to be prejudiced, but do you trust software from
Serbia?

It /does/ sound a bit shady, but chances are a programmer from Serbia
has more in common with a US programmer than with his own government.

Seems that crème de la crème of mental midgets are gathering ... Salty and
sour whiners unite!
Or are your liberal-soy-lard-arses so butthurt that Serbs were one of the
original ANTIFA ... you know, before it was mandatory to suck soros' scaly
pecker and BOATILAS ...
What ever it is, keep up the good work!

plonk!

[Dan Espen]

Post by Peter Flass

Post by Jorgen Grahn

Post by Peter Flass
.rs TLD is Serbia. Hate to be prejudiced, but do you trust software from
Serbia?

It /does/ sound a bit shady, but chances are a programmer from Serbia
has more in common with a US programmer than with his own government.

Seems that crème de la crème of mental midgets are gathering ... Salty and
sour whiners unite!
Or are your liberal-soy-lard-arses so butthurt that Serbs were one of the
original ANTIFA ... you know, before it was mandatory to suck soros' scaly
pecker and BOATILAS ...
What ever it is, keep up the good work!

plonk!

A-hole destroyed our no-politics run.

[Bud Spencer]

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Peter Flass
plonk!

A-hole destroyed our no-politics run.

And then goes «plonk!» ... Maybe that's just «prejudice» ...

[Andy Burns]

Post by Peter Flass

Post by J. Clarke
<https://ruffle.rs/>

.rs TLD is Serbia. Hate to be prejudiced, but do you trust software from
Serbia?

A lot of rust-based projects use .rs as a domain hack, nothing to do
with the projects being in any way serbian

<https://google.com/search?&q=rust+site:rs>

[Charlie Gibbs]

Post by Peter Flass

Post by J. Clarke
In any case there is an open source project, "ruffle", that is
supposed to be able to replace Flash Player transparently--whether and
how well it works I have no idea.
<https://ruffle.rs/>

.rs TLD is Serbia. Hate to be prejudiced, but do you trust software from
Serbia?

Do you trust software from Redmond? Or Cupertino?

[JimP]

Post by Charlie Gibbs

Post by Peter Flass

Post by J. Clarke
In any case there is an open source project, "ruffle", that is
supposed to be able to replace Flash Player transparently--whether and
how well it works I have no idea.
<https://ruffle.rs/>

.rs TLD is Serbia. Hate to be prejudiced, but do you trust software from
Serbia?

Do you trust software from Redmond? Or Cupertino?

Well no. Most of the computer problems I had to fix were due to broken
patches by M$.

[Vir Campestris]

Post by Dan Espen
I'm not sure they think they can fix it.
I believe Flash has been a security risk more than once.
I'm pretty sure HTML5 is an adequate replacement.
Adobe can still market authoring tools which is where they make
their money.

My guess would be that they _can_ fix it, but it won't make them enough
money to be worth doing.

Andy

[John Levine]

Post by Vir Campestris

Post by Dan Espen
I'm not sure they think they can fix it.
I believe Flash has been a security risk more than once.
I'm pretty sure HTML5 is an adequate replacement.
Adobe can still market authoring tools which is where they make
their money.

My guess would be that they _can_ fix it, but it won't make them enough
money to be worth doing.

I doubt that a secured version of Flash would be similar enough to the
current swiss cheese version that it would run existing Flash code or
otherwise be of interest to anyone.

Web sites that use Flash have had many years to switch to something
else like HTML5. If they don't find it worth the effort, so be it.

[danny burstein]

In <rsdlki$1qvn$***@gal.iecc.com> John Levine <***@taugh.com> writes:

[snip]

Post by John Levine
I doubt that a secured version of Flash would be similar enough to the
current swiss cheese version that it would run existing Flash code or
otherwise be of interest to anyone.
Web sites that use Flash have had many years to switch to something
else like HTML5. If they don't find it worth the effort, so be it.

The e-fax provider I use requires Flash. I wrote to them
a while ago pointing out that Flash would soon be EOL'ed.

I followed up a week ago when Adobe placed a warning
on my screen that they were going to KILL Flash in mid Jan.

I'm hoping... that my fax service will have an alternative option.

[Carlos E.R.]

Post by gareth evans
Historic software is usually like the soldier, never
dying but just simply fading away unless and until, that is,
someone versed in computer folklore attempts a resurrection.
Strange, then, the behaviour of Adobe, who are not just
discontinuing the support of their Flash utility, but
actively taking steps to stop it working at all a couple
of weeks into the New Year.
Already I am being prompted to uninstall it from my computers.
This is unfortunate because there are a lot of websites out there
that rely on Adobe Flash; websites that will be unusable shortly.
Particularly for me, the BBC Big Welsh Challenge is something
that I return to again and again in my repeated desultory
attempts to learn the iaith fy nadhau. (The language
of my fathers)

Those sites will have to change, simple as that. They have been warned
for years.

Another issue is hardware boxes which have an embedded web page that
uses flash, and which can not be updated.

But browsers will stop supporting flash, so it will not work even if you
have it installed.

[Peter Flass]

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by gareth evans
Historic software is usually like the soldier, never
dying but just simply fading away unless and until, that is,
someone versed in computer folklore attempts a resurrection.
Strange, then, the behaviour of Adobe, who are not just
discontinuing the support of their Flash utility, but
actively taking steps to stop it working at all a couple
of weeks into the New Year.
Already I am being prompted to uninstall it from my computers.
This is unfortunate because there are a lot of websites out there
that rely on Adobe Flash; websites that will be unusable shortly.
Particularly for me, the BBC Big Welsh Challenge is something
that I return to again and again in my repeated desultory
attempts to learn the iaith fy nadhau. (The language
of my fathers)

Those sites will have to change, simple as that. They have been warned
for years.
Another issue is hardware boxes which have an embedded web page that
uses flash, and which can not be updated.
But browsers will stop supporting flash, so it will not work even if you
have it installed.

Unless you use an old browser.

[JimP]

On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 15:52:56 -0700, Peter Flass

Post by Peter Flass

Post by Carlos E.R.

Post by gareth evans
Historic software is usually like the soldier, never
dying but just simply fading away unless and until, that is,
someone versed in computer folklore attempts a resurrection.
Strange, then, the behaviour of Adobe, who are not just
discontinuing the support of their Flash utility, but
actively taking steps to stop it working at all a couple
of weeks into the New Year.
Already I am being prompted to uninstall it from my computers.
This is unfortunate because there are a lot of websites out there
that rely on Adobe Flash; websites that will be unusable shortly.
Particularly for me, the BBC Big Welsh Challenge is something
that I return to again and again in my repeated desultory
attempts to learn the iaith fy nadhau. (The language
of my fathers)

Those sites will have to change, simple as that. They have been warned
for years.
Another issue is hardware boxes which have an embedded web page that
uses flash, and which can not be updated.
But browsers will stop supporting flash, so it will not work even if you
have it installed.

Unless you use an old browser.

Several places I worked at over the years demanded all computers have
Adobe flash on them. I hope they get their knickers in a twist.