Is this group only about older computers?

Post by meff
Hey,
Is this group only about older computers? And how old is old? I'm not
too young myself but a lot of the machines I see in recent posts are
older than I am.

Any computer related stuff can be "folklore" it doesn't have to be as
olde as some of us.

--
Dan Espen

meff

2022-01-12 05:53:53 UTC

Post by Dan Espen
Any computer related stuff can be "folklore" it doesn't have to be as
olde as some of us.

Awesome thanks!

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

2022-01-12 05:40:06 UTC

On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 04:18:14 -0000 (UTC)

Post by meff
Hey,
Is this group only about older computers? And how old is old? I'm not

It's about the folklore rather than the computers, the people and
the times - at least it was originally ... and most of the best folklore
comes from the early times.

Post by meff
too young myself but a lot of the machines I see in recent posts are
older than I am.

We are mostly the auld farts of computing mostly from the days
before the PC - many of us worked with mainframes, some worked on them,
I'm a little younger than that and simply trained on them before starting my
career amid the rise of the microprocessor. I'm just old enough to have
used a card saw.

Originally this group was mostly mainframe nostalgia but I think
we've all swapped our best stories a long time ago (go on someone prove me
wrong with some fresh anecdotes) and sadly we've lost some of the folks with
really early days stories.

Oh yes - there's an occasional tendency to sidetrack into US
politics and a long tradition of wide ranging topic drift.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

A.T. Murray

2022-01-12 06:43:42 UTC

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 04:18:14 -0000 (UTC)

Post by meff
Hey,
Is this group only about older computers? And how old is old? I'm not

It's about the folklore rather than the computers, the people and
the times - at least it was originally ... and most of the best folklore
comes from the early times.

Post by meff
too young myself but a lot of the machines I see in recent posts are
older than I am.

We are mostly the auld farts of computing mostly from the days
before the PC - many of us worked with mainframes, some worked on them,
I'm a little younger than that and simply trained on them before starting my
career amid the rise of the microprocessor. I'm just old enough to have
used a card saw.
Originally this group was mostly mainframe nostalgia but I think
we've all swapped our best stories a long time ago (go on someone prove me
wrong with some fresh anecdotes) and sadly we've lost some of the folks with
really early days stories.
Oh yes - there's an occasional tendency to sidetrack into US
politics and a long tradition of wide ranging topic drift.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

The BRAINIAC version of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geniac was my first computer, during the time of Maynard G. Krebs and the late Dobie Gillis.

Mentifex

--
http://ai.neocities.org/RoboMind.html

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

2022-01-12 09:34:13 UTC

On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 22:43:42 -0800 (PST)

Post by A.T. Murray
The BRAINIAC version of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geniac was my
first computer, during the time of Maynard G. Krebs and the late Dobie
Gillis.

My first programmable machine wasn't a computer - it was one of
these:

https://uk.fabtintoys.com/computacar/

It was bought to shut me up because I was bored stiff and irritating
at my one and only visit to Newmarket races.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

Kerr-Mudd, John

2022-01-12 10:10:03 UTC

On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 09:34:13 +0000

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Tue, 11 Jan 2022 22:43:42 -0800 (PST)

Post by A.T. Murray
The BRAINIAC version of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geniac was my
first computer, during the time of Maynard G. Krebs and the late Dobie
Gillis.

My first programmable machine wasn't a computer - it was one of
https://uk.fabtintoys.com/computacar/
It was bought to shut me up because I was bored stiff and irritating
at my one and only visit to Newmarket races.

Wow! That beats my Sinclair programmable calculator! (max 24 instructions!)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_Scientific

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Mike Spencer

2022-01-12 22:59:58 UTC

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Originally this group was mostly mainframe nostalgia but I think
we've all swapped our best stories a long time ago (go on someone
prove me wrong with some fresh anecdotes) and sadly we've lost some
of the folks with really early days stories.

Maybe someone can answer definitively a question that's been lurking
in my head much as I've been lurking on this group for 30 years. I
wrote my first, very trivial, program using punch cards in '64 but
didn't really encounter another computer until I got my own Osborne I
in '87 when it was already obsolete. So I'm an old geezer but one
with a fragmentary recollection from 1953.

In 1953, Bob McCreech [RIP], my 7th grade social studies, took the
class for a whirlwind tour of Boston. One of the stops was to see The
Computer [note definite article] at Harvard. IIRC, it was in one of
the brick buildings facing on the Yard. Largish room with racks all
around the sides, filled (again, IIRC) with vacuum tubes, all behind a
gefingerpoken-resistant glass wall. In the "office" there was a paper
tape device and the operator (tour droid? :-) "entered" (??) all our
names somehow and then (allegedly) had the computer punch the names
out on tape. I kept the tape for years but no longer have it.

Does anyone know which particular Digital Wonder of the Modern World
this would have been?

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

Scott Lurndal

2022-01-12 23:19:31 UTC

Post by Mike Spencer

Maybe someone can answer definitively a question that's been lurking
in my head much as I've been lurking on this group for 30 years. I
wrote my first, very trivial, program using punch cards in '64 but
didn't really encounter another computer until I got my own Osborne I
in '87 when it was already obsolete. So I'm an old geezer but one
with a fragmentary recollection from 1953.
In 1953, Bob McCreech [RIP], my 7th grade social studies, took the
class for a whirlwind tour of Boston. One of the stops was to see The
Computer [note definite article] at Harvard. IIRC, it was in one of
the brick buildings facing on the Yard. Largish room with racks all
around the sides, filled (again, IIRC) with vacuum tubes, all behind a
gefingerpoken-resistant glass wall. In the "office" there was a paper
tape device and the operator (tour droid? :-) "entered" (??) all our
names somehow and then (allegedly) had the computer punch the names
out on tape. I kept the tape for years but no longer have it.
Does anyone know which particular Digital Wonder of the Modern World
this would have been?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_Mark_IV

Mike Spencer

2022-01-13 05:31:01 UTC

Post by Mike Spencer
In 1953, Bob McCreech [RIP], my 7th grade social studies, took the
class for a whirlwind tour of Boston. One of the stops was to see The
Computer [note definite article] at Harvard. IIRC, it was in one of
the brick buildings facing on the Yard. Largish room with racks all
around the sides, filled (again, IIRC) with vacuum tubes, all behind a
gefingerpoken-resistant glass wall. In the "office" there was a paper
tape device and the operator (tour droid? :-) "entered" (??) all our
names somehow and then (allegedly) had the computer punch the names
out on tape. I kept the tape for years but no longer have it.
Does anyone know which particular Digital Wonder of the Modern World
this would have been?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_Mark_IV

TYVM. Not much there in the way of detail. A little more here:

http://www.ii.uib.no/~wagner/OtherTopicsdir/EarlyDaysOld.htm

from Eric G. Wagner (who, for all I know, may be lurking on this group. :-)

There seems to have been a Harvard Mark IV aircraft of the same era
that gets more Gwgle space than the Aiken computer.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

John Levine

2022-01-13 15:11:11 UTC

Post by Mike Spencer
the brick buildings facing on the Yard. Largish room with racks all
around the sides, filled (again, IIRC) with vacuum tubes, all behind a
gefingerpoken-resistant glass wall. In the "office" there was a paper
tape device and the operator (tour droid? :-) "entered" (??) all our
names somehow and then (allegedly) had the computer punch the names
out on tape. I kept the tape for years but no longer have it.
Does anyone know which particular Digital Wonder of the Modern World
this would have been?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_Mark_IV

TYVM. Not much there in the way of detail. A little more here: ...

Not surprising, since the Harvard machines were a dead end. The real
action was two subway stops away at MIT where the Whirlwind was
already working and became the model for the SAGE computer, and in
Princeton where the IAS machine was the model for the IBM 701.

--
Regards,
John Levine, ***@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

Scott Lurndal

2022-01-13 15:27:47 UTC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_Mark_IV

TYVM. Not much there in the way of detail. A little more here: ...

Not surprising, since the Harvard machines were a dead end.

Although they were the origin of the concept of the "Harvard Architecture"
which is still used today in DSPs et alia.

John Levine

2022-01-13 16:51:21 UTC

Post by John Levine
Not surprising, since the Harvard machines were a dead end.

Although they were the origin of the concept of the "Harvard Architecture"
which is still used today in DSPs et alia.

Harvard Architecture just means that code and data are in separate memories.

One of the key insights in Von Neumann's "First Draft" in 1945 was that if
you put code and data in the same memory, programs could modify themselves.
In an era before indirect addressing and index registers, that meant you
could modify the addresses in load and store instructions to step through
an array rather than having some kind of data sequence kludge.

It turned out that address modification was by far the most useful instruction
modification, so when index registers arrived in the early 1950s, the amount
of instruction patching decreased a lot. But storing code and data in the
same memory remains the key to things we take for granted like using a
chunk of memory for code in one program and data in the next.

DSPs are unusual in that they usually only run one program and have
different instruction and data word sizes and have indirect addressing or
index registers so using separate memories can make sense. But I doubt
Aiken anticipated all that.

--
Regards,
John Levine, ***@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

Jeremy Brubaker

2022-01-12 18:00:38 UTC

Post by meff
Is this group only about older computers? And how old is old? I'm not
too young myself but a lot of the machines I see in recent posts are
older than I am.

I'm definitely not that old but here are some /newer/ anecdotes from my
youth:

1. Sometime probably around 1988 a classmate of mine told me that her
family's computer could talk to other computers using something called
Prodigy (what good that did was not really specified). My only
experience with computers at the time was playing DOS games on a
friend's PC so of course I told her she was clearly lying because how on
earth could a computer talk to another computer?

Imagine my surprise later when, not only did I learn that, yes,
computers could talk to each other, but that Prodigy was a thing!

2. My first computer, bought circa 1998, had a 2.5 Gb hard drive. The
next year in college my roomate came in talking about how someone said
they had a 100 Gb hard drive. My roomate's opinion was that such a thing
was ridiculous and impossible. And besides, what would anyone do with
100 Gb of space?

And now I look at my computer and see 4x drives ranging from 500 Gb to 1
Tb and I have probably 10+ thumb drives and SD cards that are 100+ Gb in
my desk. How times have changed.

--
() www.asciiribbon.org | Jeremy Brubaker
/\ - against html mail | јЬruЬаkе@оrіоnаrtѕ.іо / neonrex on IRC

Complete Transient Lockout

Dan Espen

2022-01-12 18:37:01 UTC

Post by meff
Is this group only about older computers? And how old is old? I'm not
too young myself but a lot of the machines I see in recent posts are
older than I am.

Back in 1963 I'm taking a course in computer programming.
At that time college degrees were not required but the teacher
let on that we had PHD in the class. One day the PHD was gone
so the teacher told us a story about him. Seems he approached the
teacher and said "I don't understand how the computer can read these
cards with all these holes in them".

Post by Jeremy Brubaker
2. My first computer, bought circa 1998, had a 2.5 Gb hard drive. The
next year in college my roomate came in talking about how someone said
they had a 100 Gb hard drive. My roomate's opinion was that such a thing
was ridiculous and impossible. And besides, what would anyone do with
100 Gb of space?
And now I look at my computer and see 4x drives ranging from 500 Gb to 1
Tb and I have probably 10+ thumb drives and SD cards that are 100+ Gb in
my desk. How times have changed.

First disk I encountered was the IBM 1311 attached to an IBM 1440.
1 million 6 bit characters per disk.

--
Dan Espen

Charlie Gibbs

2022-01-12 22:46:55 UTC

Post by meff
Is this group only about older computers? And how old is old? I'm not
too young myself but a lot of the machines I see in recent posts are
older than I am.

I'm definitely not that old but here are some /newer/ anecdotes from my

<snip>

Post by Dan Espen
Back in 1963 I'm taking a course in computer programming.
At that time college degrees were not required but the teacher
let on that we had PHD in the class. One day the PHD was gone
so the teacher told us a story about him. Seems he approached the
teacher and said "I don't understand how the computer can read these
cards with all these holes in them".

You know, it's one thing about intellectuals,
they prove you can be absolutely brilliant
and have no idea what's going on.
-- Woody Allen

When I started my first job in 1970, the shop was pure cards. No
disks, no tapes, and a whopping 16K of memory. We added disks later -
and the boss never trusted them because you couldn't see the holes.

First disk I encountered was the IBM 1311 attached to an IBM 1440.
1 million 6 bit characters per disk.

The first disks we attached in the shop above were Univac clones
of the IBM 2311 - 7 megabytes per pack. We soon upgraded to
2314 clones (25MB/pack).

My first hard disk on a home computer was a 10MB ST506 drive
kludged onto my Amiga.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <***@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

Vir Campestris

2022-01-13 22:01:45 UTC

Post by Charlie Gibbs
My first hard disk on a home computer was a 10MB ST506 drive
kludged onto my Amiga.

ST506 was only 5MB. (I've got one, and it worked last time I tried it.)

The PSU in the computer for it has gone pop though, I must fix it...

WHen I do it'll power up with the RTC set to the date and time of my
eldest son's birth. The battery has long died. TBH I won't be surprised
if it struggles with 20xx years!

Andy

Charlie Gibbs

2022-01-14 01:24:43 UTC

Post by Charlie Gibbs
My first hard disk on a home computer was a 10MB ST506 drive
kludged onto my Amiga.

ST506 was only 5MB. (I've got one, and it worked last time I tried it.)

Whatever. It look me long enough to dredge up that term.
I do remember that it was hooked to a Western Digital 1003
controller, though. A local hardware guru came up with a
small circuit board called the Wedge, which plugged into
the Amiga's expansion bus and provided an ISA slot.
One day when I was bored I plugged a serial card into
the slot instead and actually got it to transfer some data.

Charles Richmond

2022-01-14 04:04:20 UTC

Post by Charlie Gibbs
My first hard disk on a home computer was a 10MB ST506 drive
kludged onto my Amiga.

ST506 was only 5MB. (I've got one, and it worked last time I tried it.)

The ST-412 was like the ST-506, but the ST-412 was 10 meg...

--
Charles Richmond
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Theo

2022-01-14 22:20:09 UTC

Post by Charlie Gibbs
My first hard disk on a home computer was a 10MB ST506 drive
kludged onto my Amiga.

ST506 was only 5MB. (I've got one, and it worked last time I tried it.)

ST506 was a drive, but it also became the name of the interface.

It was only an interface to the raw drive control signals (like a big floppy
really) so you could format it with either MFM (like a floppy) or RLL
(fancy!). There were slight differences between the ST506 and ST412 drives,
and the ST412HP was RLL.

Post by Vir Campestris
WHen I do it'll power up with the RTC set to the date and time of my
eldest son's birth. The battery has long died. TBH I won't be surprised
if it struggles with 20xx years!

I should crack open my HP GPIB hard drive and see what's inside - suspect a
big ST506 disc...

Theo

Peter Flass

2022-01-13 22:44:38 UTC

Post by meff
Is this group only about older computers? And how old is old? I'm not
too young myself but a lot of the machines I see in recent posts are
older than I am.

I'm definitely not that old but here are some /newer/ anecdotes from my

<snip>

You know, it's one thing about intellectuals,
they prove you can be absolutely brilliant
and have no idea what's going on.
-- Woody Allen
When I started my first job in 1970, the shop was pure cards. No
disks, no tapes, and a whopping 16K of memory. We added disks later -
and the boss never trusted them because you couldn't see the holes.

A previous employer wanted programs kept on cards. We had this whizzbang
TSO thing with a wonderful editor, about as powerful as DOS EDLIN, and a
speedy 10cps TTY. At one point I had to make a bunch of changes, so I read
the program in, made global changes, and punched out a new deck.

First disk I encountered was the IBM 1311 attached to an IBM 1440.
1 million 6 bit characters per disk.

The first disks we attached in the shop above were Univac clones
of the IBM 2311 - 7 megabytes per pack. We soon upgraded to
2314 clones (25MB/pack).
My first hard disk on a home computer was a 10MB ST506 drive
kludged onto my Amiga.

--
Pete

Charlie Gibbs

2022-01-14 01:24:44 UTC

Post by Charlie Gibbs
When I started my first job in 1970, the shop was pure cards. No
disks, no tapes, and a whopping 16K of memory. We added disks later -
and the boss never trusted them because you couldn't see the holes.

Did you run it through an interpreter afterwards? :-)

At my next job we still stored all programs on cards, although we
had disk drives and system utilities that were intended to maintain
source code on disk. As far as I knew, no other such shop used
this facility, which I thought was a shame. But then we got a new
department head who came from a large IBM shop. One day he was
sitting in his office musing, "I wish we could keep programs on disk."
"But you can!" I exclaimed joyfully, seeing my chance. "Do it," he said.
And the rest is history.

Peter Flass

2022-01-14 19:43:17 UTC

Did you run it through an interpreter afterwards? :-)

Yup. Interpreted it on a keypunch. Thinking back I can’t recall exactly how
it was done. When I worked on an 1130 we had cow-orkers who interpreted
our decks on a 360/20 with an MFCM.

--
Pete

Charlie Gibbs

2022-01-14 21:16:03 UTC

Did you run it through an interpreter afterwards? :-)

Yup. Interpreted it on a keypunch. Thinking back I can’t recall exactly how
it was done. When I worked on an 1130 we had cow-orkers who interpreted
our decks on a 360/20 with an MFCM.

Some models of the IBM 029 keypunch had an extra read head at the punch
station; they could interpret cards. The IBM 129 could do it too.
The Univac 1710 keypunch did it much faster and nicely (and noisily).

At university we had an IBM 557 interpreter. It could only fit
60 characters across the top of the card; if you really wanted you
could do a second pass and print the remaining 20 characters below.
Since the characters didn't line up with the columns, it wasn't a
lot of fun to read if you were trying to correct a column, although
you could get cards with column numbers 1-60 printed across the top.
The 557 had a plugboard where you could select which column printed
where, but most people just left it at the default setting.

meff

2022-01-12 19:17:23 UTC

Yeah our family computer for years was a Pentium 100 with 1 GB of
storage space and 8 MB of RAM (with a cute sticker that said
"Upgradable to 2!" (yes with the exclamation point).) My family didn't
have much money so we stuck to that machine for a long time. It became
"mine" when the family upgraded, and I used it for years more by
installing Linux on it (eventually a Debian over 52 floppies lol) and
attaching dumpster-acquired parts onto it.

I had a CD for a game called "The Journeyman Pro: TURBO" (a Myst-like
game) and it had a readme file on the CD which said "you could copy
the CD and play the game much faster on your drive, but who just has
700 MB lying around??"

Ant

2022-01-13 06:23:21 UTC

Post by meff
Is this group only about older computers? And how old is old? I'm not
too young myself but a lot of the machines I see in recent posts are
older than I am.

I'm definitely not that old but here are some /newer/ anecdotes from my
1. Sometime probably around 1988 a classmate of mine told me that her
family's computer could talk to other computers using something called
Prodigy (what good that did was not really specified). My only
experience with computers at the time was playing DOS games on a
friend's PC so of course I told her she was clearly lying because how on
earth could a computer talk to another computer?
Imagine my surprise later when, not only did I learn that, yes,
computers could talk to each other, but that Prodigy was a thing!
2. My first computer, bought circa 1998, had a 2.5 Gb hard drive. The
next year in college my roomate came in talking about how someone said
they had a 100 Gb hard drive. My roomate's opinion was that such a thing
was ridiculous and impossible. And besides, what would anyone do with
100 Gb of space?
And now I look at my computer and see 4x drives ranging from 500 Gb to 1
Tb and I have probably 10+ thumb drives and SD cards that are 100+ Gb in
my desk. How times have changed.

Prodigy. Do you still remember your ID? Mine was TGSV85B since I was a
teen(ager) back then before I discovered BBSes and then Internet on PCs!
http://zimage.com/~ant/antfarm/about/toys.html for my detailed history! ;)

--
Slammy new week as expected. Lots of spams again! 2022 isn't any better and different so far. :(
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| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

Jeremy Brubaker

2022-01-13 15:40:12 UTC

Post by meff
Is this group only about older computers? And how old is old? I'm not
too young myself but a lot of the machines I see in recent posts are
older than I am.

1. Sometime probably around 1988 a classmate of mine told me that her
family's computer could talk to other computers using something

called >> Prodigy (what good that did was not really specified). My only

Post by Jeremy Brubaker
experience with computers at the time was playing DOS games on a >>

friend's PC so of course I told her she was clearly lying because how on

Post by Jeremy Brubaker
earth could a computer talk to another computer?
Imagine my surprise later when, not only did I learn that, yes,
computers could talk to each other, but that Prodigy was a thing!

Prodigy. Do you still remember your ID? Mine was TGSV85B since I was a

I never used Prodigy. We didn't even have a computer until the late
'90s. My first internet connection was using those free CDs you used to
get from AOL. We had internet for at least a year or so before we ever
paid for it. And tied up the phone line for hours at a time to boot.

--
() www.asciiribbon.org | Jeremy Brubaker
/\ - against html mail | јЬruЬаkе@оrіоnаrtѕ.іо / neonrex on IRC

10.0 times 0.1 is hardly ever 1.0.

Michael Trew

2022-01-13 18:59:50 UTC

Post by meff
Is this group only about older computers? And how old is old? I'm not
too young myself but a lot of the machines I see in recent posts are
older than I am.

1. Sometime probably around 1988 a classmate of mine told me that her
family's computer could talk to other computers using something

called>> Prodigy (what good that did was not really specified). My only

Post by Jeremy Brubaker
experience with computers at the time was playing DOS games on a>>

friend's PC so of course I told her she was clearly lying because how on

Prodigy. Do you still remember your ID? Mine was TGSV85B since I was a

LOL I remember scrounging free internet from AOL CD's years ago. I
found one in a desk drawer not too long ago. As a child, I even recall
people bringing them into the church, because we made whirili-gigs out
of them in vacation bible school, heh

Peter Flass

2022-01-13 22:44:41 UTC

Post by meff
Is this group only about older computers? And how old is old? I'm not
too young myself but a lot of the machines I see in recent posts are
older than I am.

1. Sometime probably around 1988 a classmate of mine told me that her
family's computer could talk to other computers using something

called>> Prodigy (what good that did was not really specified). My only

Post by Jeremy Brubaker
experience with computers at the time was playing DOS games on a>>

friend's PC so of course I told her she was clearly lying because how on

Prodigy. Do you still remember your ID? Mine was TGSV85B since I was a

People around here still hang chaIns of CDs or DVDs to keep the birds away.

--
Pete

Dave Garland

2022-01-15 02:06:37 UTC

Post by Michael Trew
LOL I remember scrounging free internet from AOL CD's years ago. I
found one in a desk drawer not too long ago. As a child, I even recall
people bringing them into the church, because we made whirili-gigs out
of them in vacation bible school, heh

People around here still hang chaIns of CDs or DVDs to keep the birds away.

The real CDs/DVDs work best. Writable ones turn completely clear after
a while in the sun.

Dave Garland

2022-01-15 02:03:51 UTC

Post by Ant
Prodigy. Do you still remember your ID? Mine was TGSV85B since I was a
teen(ager) back then before I discovered BBSes and then Internet on PCs!
http://zimage.com/~ant/antfarm/about/toys.html for my detailed history! ;)

I've got a client who still uses a prodigy email address. Every once
in a while the fish will get swallowed by another fish, and sometimes
we'll have to reconfigure. I think now they're owned by Yahoo, which
is in turn owned by a venture capitalist.

Ant

2022-01-15 02:17:36 UTC

Post by Dave Garland

I never had Prodigy for Internet. I didn't get on the Internet until
1993 with my friend's university shell account. ;)

--
Aw, The Expanse TV show is already over. D: Slammy new week quieting down? :D
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Ahem A Rivet's Shot

2022-01-13 07:31:01 UTC

On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 18:00:38 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Jeremy Brubaker
2. My first computer, bought circa 1998, had a 2.5 Gb hard drive.

The first computer I owned was an 80286 based box with 4MB of RAM
and two 20MB MFM drives that I got an RLL controller for and ran at 38MB
each. It ran DR-DOS, XENIX-286 and Smalltalk V (which launched under DOS
and then took over in protected mode).

The first computer I used was an 1BM-1130 with 4K words of core
(yes real beads on wires core), three 1.5MB disks, a 1442 card reader and a
1403 printer (not the N1 so no coffee thrown round the room).

In between I used the first TRS-80s in the UK, worked on the
Newbrain and Torch then a bunch of CP/M and MP/M systems before settling in
the unix world which still pays me good money.

I just ordered a new (second hand) workstation with 32GB of RAM and
512GB of SSD that will almost certainly never be more than about 10% used.
I have terabyte drives and several gigabytes of RAM lying around unused
after being replaced by bigger components.

I am trying and failing to imagine how a statement like that last
sentence would have been received in say 1990 when I was busy designing a
300 gigabyte distributed system to run the biggest database Informix had
been used for to date. Thirty years on and you could run that database and
application on a cellphone with the data on a postage stamp sized micro-sd
card instead of three hundred full height 5 1/4" hard disks spread over
sixty SCSI busses.

The amazing thing to me is that despite that incredible pace of
change in scale much of the business of programming is still the same as it
ever was - we have better tools and bigger problems but at the end of the
day you still have to understand the problem, write the solution down in
clear and correct code and then spend a long time staring at debug output
because the clear and correct code isn't doing what you thought it should
do.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

meff

2022-01-13 08:32:42 UTC

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
The amazing thing to me is that despite that incredible pace of
change in scale much of the business of programming is still the same as it
ever was - we have better tools and bigger problems but at the end of the
day you still have to understand the problem, write the solution down in
clear and correct code and then spend a long time staring at debug output
because the clear and correct code isn't doing what you thought it should
do.

I'm curious, did you think this would change in the past?

Kerr-Mudd, John

2022-01-13 10:03:25 UTC

On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 08:32:42 -0000 (UTC)

Post by meff

I'm curious, did you think this would change in the past?

It would all be automated by one System; some arrogant types called theirs "The Last One".

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

2022-01-13 11:09:17 UTC

On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 10:03:25 +0000

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
It would all be automated by one System; some arrogant types called theirs "The Last One".

That outfit gave me a great belly laugh when I first spotted their
advert for:

The Last One
Mark II

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

2022-01-13 10:50:38 UTC

On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 08:32:42 -0000 (UTC)

Post by meff

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
The amazing thing to me is that despite that incredible pace of
change in scale much of the business of programming is still the same
as it ever was - we have better tools and bigger problems but at the
end of the day you still have to understand the problem, write the
solution down in clear and correct code and then spend a long time
staring at debug output because the clear and correct code isn't doing
what you thought it should do.

I'm curious, did you think this would change in the past?

In some ways it did with the transition from mainframe batch
processing and banking derived "waterfall" development processes like
Yourdon, SSADM et al to client/server continuous processing and iterative
development processes. They were two very different cultures with very
different ways of doing things and I think that more than anything
technical separated the two worlds. Both still exist but the once universal
original approach is now a tiny (but vital) part of the computing world.

Many developers were unable (or unwilling) to make the transition,
around 1990 the project i was on hit the phase of needing many hands for
grunt work - but we were developing in C/SQL/unix in an COBOL/ICL house and
so I got to watch about thirty people start out enthusiastic and keen to
get to grips with the new world ... and then their brains slowly frazzled
with concept overload over the next three months or so and they got
stressed, haunted looks. The ones who made it through were *really* good
the rest went into management or back to their old roles.

I was lucky enough to be just on the right side of the change and
there hasn't (yet) been another one like it since - although ML will
probably bring one if i read the tea leaves correctly.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

Charlie Gibbs

2022-01-13 18:50:30 UTC

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 18:00:38 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Jeremy Brubaker
2. My first computer, bought circa 1998, had a 2.5 Gb hard drive.

My first personal computer was an IMSAI, built from parts left over
from a project that a friend was working on. It started off with 8K of
memory (two RAM-4A boards), and a CUTS interface to a pair of open-reel
tape decks I had lying around (as opposed to the more standard cassette
decks, which I didn't have). Eventually I scraped together the money
to buy a pair of 8-inch single-sided floppy disks and a Disk Jockey 2D
controller board. I replaced the memory with a 64K static RAM board
(populated to 16K to save money). Every Friday on my way home from
work I'd stop at the local Heathkit store and spend $16 on a 2016 chip,
adding another 2K to the board until I built it up to 62K (the remamining
2K was reserved for the boot ROM and a bit of working RAM on the floppy
controller board).

Its first terminal was a Uniscope 100 that I rescued from the scrap heap
at work; it had an asynchronous interface rather than the more standard
synchronous one, which made it easier for a friend to cobble together
a driver (he had a similar setup). Eventually I found a Heath 19
terminal, which enabled me to go from 2400 bps to 19200. (Univac
async interfaces would only go to 2400 bps - it's a low-speed protocol,
doncha know).

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
The first computer I used was an 1BM-1130 with 4K words of core
(yes real beads on wires core), three 1.5MB disks, a 1442 card reader
and a 1403 printer (not the N1 so no coffee thrown round the room).

My favourite "coffee thrown round the room" experience was when the
operator left his cup on the lid of the model 604 card punch, which
was a large, noisy beast that could grind out 200 cards per minute
all day long. The lid was a large expanse of sheet metal which
vibrated quite nicely when the punch was running. On the day in
question I was on the other side of the machine room when the punch
started up - too far away to do anything but watch as the cup walked
across the vibrating lid and over the edge.

The very first machine I got my hands on was the Univac 1004 where my
uncle worked when I was 15. This was a hopped-up electronic version
of the IBM 407; in addition to a big plugboard it had 961 6-bit bytes
of core. My uncle took me into the office for a few days and I got
to play with it in between production runs. It used 90-column cards
(same size as the 80-column cards everybody knows and loves, but with
round holes arranged in a 12x45 grid, grouped in two tiers). Not too
long afterwards I got to play with a "real" computer, a Univac 9300
(Univac's answer to the IBM 360/20). This one had no disk or tapes,
just 16K of memory and a printer, punch, and three card readers (which
saved the time needed to collate and separate decks). A few years later
I got my first job at this same shop.

<snip>

And we still have ignorant managers asking for the moon, and we
still have to patiently and diplomatically explain to them why
their ideas won't work - then figure out how to give them what
they need, as opposed to what they want.

D.J.

2022-01-13 22:44:59 UTC

On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 18:50:30 GMT, Charlie Gibbs

Post by Charlie Gibbs
And we still have ignorant managers asking for the moon, and we
still have to patiently and diplomatically explain to them why
their ideas won't work - then figure out how to give them what
they need, as opposed to what they want.

This reminds of a lovely experience of a manager who asked for
something he had apparently seen on television. He wanted it installed
on his computer. I politely pointed out if it wasn't on the Authorized
Software List, he couldn't have it. And it sounded to me it violated
the Laws of Physics.

He said it was okay, he was a Manager.

My impression was he thought the laws of physics were in a law book
somewhere, and snce he was a Manager, I could skip the fine details
and install it for him.

I told him nope. He Demanded to KNow Just where My Boss was Located.

I pointed to his door. I got a phone call, I pointed to my boss, there
is nothing like that on the autrhorized list, and I had never heard ot
it. My boss checked with the other IT guy, who told him the same
thing.

The Manager stomped over to the Big Bosses office, and told him the
same story apparently. The other IT guy and I heard our boss' phone
ring.

The Manager then stomped over to the elevator and left. The Big Boss
came over and talked to us, I showed him where I had searched on the
authorized list.

The Next Day; The Manager left for something like Improved Job
Oppurtunities. My boss called our corporate office, and they said they
never heard of it either.

I mentioned I thought it shounded like some computer graphics I had
seen on tv, where they pretend they have hardware but its only a
hologram or an animation.
--
Jim

Freddy1X

2022-01-13 21:14:12 UTC

Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

( cuts )

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
The amazing thing to me is that despite that incredible pace of
change in scale much of the business of programming is still the same as
it ever was - we have better tools and bigger problems but at the end of
the day you still have to understand the problem, write the solution down
in clear and correct code and then spend a long time staring at debug
output because the clear and correct code isn't doing what you thought it
should do.

My computer does EXACTLY what my programs tell it to do! ;-)

--
See disclaimers on product box.

/|>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>\|
/| I may be demented \|
/| but I'm not crazy! \|
/|<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<\|
* SPAyM trap: there is no X in my address *

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

2022-01-13 22:06:49 UTC

On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 16:14:12 -0500

Post by Freddy1X
My computer does EXACTLY what my programs tell it to do! ;-)

I've never had my hands on a computer that ran *only* my code, the
closest would probably be prototype Torches forty years ago that had code
from just three of us.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

Mike Spencer

2022-01-14 00:08:29 UTC

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 16:14:12 -0500

Post by Freddy1X
My computer does EXACTLY what my programs tell it to do! ;-)

I've never had my hands on a computer that ran *only* my code

Oddly enough, I believe I have.

My "larval stage" came late in life (45+ y.o.) with already obsolete
hardware (Osborne I in '87-'90) but I was keen.

I accumulated several Osbornes and wanted more RAM so I connected a
2nd O1 via a serial cable. (The Osborne manual provided lots of
detail about how to talk to the serial port.) I put together a little
program that, once started, would zero out all 64K of RAM (except
itself, of course) including the 4K of display, listen to the
serial port and store or retrieve blocks of size-tagged data over the
wire. Filled the video display with garbage, of course, and worked
like a charm but so egregiously slowly as to be of no practical use
whatever. But no code but mine was running on the ancillary O1.

(Parenthetically, I might add that getting XLisp to compile and run on
the Osborne was yet another success of no redeeming practical value
whatever.)

Oh, and since several people have revealed their ages: Have I a
shot at Senior Geezerhood? I'll be 80 the end of February.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

Peter Flass

2022-01-14 19:43:17 UTC

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 16:14:12 -0500

Post by Freddy1X
My computer does EXACTLY what my programs tell it to do! ;-)

I've never had my hands on a computer that ran *only* my code

Oddly enough, I believe I have.

Does a virtual machine count? I wrote some standalone code to run on
VM/370.

--
Pete

John Levine

2022-01-14 20:04:55 UTC

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 16:14:12 -0500

Post by Freddy1X
My computer does EXACTLY what my programs tell it to do! ;-)

I've never had my hands on a computer that ran *only* my code,

The PDP-8 I programmed in the late 1960s did. There wasn't room for
anything else.

--
Regards,
John Levine, ***@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

Lawrence Statton (NK1G)

2022-01-20 00:17:02 UTC

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 16:14:12 -0500

Post by Freddy1X
My computer does EXACTLY what my programs tell it to do! ;-)

I've never had my hands on a computer that ran *only* my code, the
closest would probably be prototype Torches forty years ago that had code
from just three of us.

I spent many years programming on "bare metal", where there were zero
bytes of executable code that I (or later, my team) did not write, but
you could unplug the cartridge with my code and plug in someone else's.

Later, I did a ton of embedded-system programming where I wrote 90+% of
the code, except for a couple of RS485 "network" subroutines that an
office-mate wrote.

--NK1G

echo '***@abaluon.abaom' | sed s/aba/c/g

Vir Campestris

2022-01-20 21:44:10 UTC

Post by Lawrence Statton (NK1G)

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 16:14:12 -0500

Post by Freddy1X
My computer does EXACTLY what my programs tell it to do! ;-)

I've never had my hands on a computer that ran *only* my code, the
closest would probably be prototype Torches forty years ago that had code
from just three of us.

I spent many years programming on "bare metal", where there were zero
bytes of executable code that I (or later, my team) did not write, but
you could unplug the cartridge with my code and plug in someone else's.
Later, I did a ton of embedded-system programming where I wrote 90+% of
the code, except for a couple of RS485 "network" subroutines that an
office-mate wrote.

You've now reminded me that I have actually run code on a computer that
only I wrote.

Initial boot rom code.

It's quite a challenge to put an error code out saying that the RAM
isn't working ;)

Andy

J. Clarke

2022-01-20 21:52:34 UTC

On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 21:44:10 +0000, Vir Campestris

Post by Lawrence Statton (NK1G)

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 16:14:12 -0500

Post by Freddy1X
My computer does EXACTLY what my programs tell it to do! ;-)

I've never had my hands on a computer that ran *only* my code, the
closest would probably be prototype Torches forty years ago that had code
from just three of us.

I spent many years programming on "bare metal", where there were zero
bytes of executable code that I (or later, my team) did not write, but
you could unplug the cartridge with my code and plug in someone else's.
Later, I did a ton of embedded-system programming where I wrote 90+% of
the code, except for a couple of RS485 "network" subroutines that an
office-mate wrote.

You've now reminded me that I have actually run code on a computer that
only I wrote.
Initial boot rom code.
It's quite a challenge to put an error code out saying that the RAM
isn't working ;)

In the operating systems course at UCONN we each had a bare LSI-11
that we had to make do a variety of assigned tasks. Copying the code
into the LSI-11's memory was performed by a larger PDP-11, I was never
really clear on how the transfer was performed.

Peter Flass

2022-01-13 22:44:42 UTC

Post by Freddy1X
( cuts )

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
The amazing thing to me is that despite that incredible pace of
change in scale much of the business of programming is still the same as
it ever was - we have better tools and bigger problems but at the end of
the day you still have to understand the problem, write the solution down
in clear and correct code and then spend a long time staring at debug
output because the clear and correct code isn't doing what you thought it
should do.

My computer does EXACTLY what my programs tell it to do! ;-)

Mine too, that’s why it sometimes takes me so long to debug a program. I
need a DWIM computer.

--
Pete

Peter Flass

2022-01-13 22:44:39 UTC

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 18:00:38 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Jeremy Brubaker
2. My first computer, bought circa 1998, had a 2.5 Gb hard drive.

Wow, that’s a BIG 1130. Did you have 32K memory also?

--
Pete

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

2022-01-14 06:55:05 UTC

On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 15:44:39 -0700

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 18:00:38 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Jeremy Brubaker
2. My first computer, bought circa 1998, had a 2.5 Gb hard drive.

Wow, that’s a BIG 1130. Did you have 32K memory also?

It had 4K words so yes 32K bytes - there was also a paper tape
reader/punch that I'm pretty sure wasn't IBM but I forget what it was. The
biggest single box was the channel box for the printer.

It belonged to the local technical college who had got it second
hand from somewhere that had upgraded - this was 1974/5 so it was getting
a bit long in the tooth.

It was available for use by all the schools (and kids) in the
county but very few knew or cared. There was a walk in hour every day when
you could just drop a deck of cards into the hopper and wait for the
printout - the operator would kill anything that took more than five
minutes and an evening booking system to have it all to yourself for an
hour at a time - usually the operator bunked off when someone had it
booked, that was great!

One thing about the 1403 that not many people realise - that lid is
*heavy* (which is why the N1 is motorised). One day, just as *my* job was
printing, there was a loud BANG from the printer which seemed completely
unaffected by it, the paper continued to stream through it, the print was
perfect nothing seemed to be wrong - until I tried to flip the lid up for a
closer look. The lid that usually lifted at a light touch didn't move! It
took a concerted effort to lift the thing - the bang had been the torsion
rod that made the lid so easy to lift snapping.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

John Levine

2022-01-14 18:46:40 UTC

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
The first computer I owned was an 80286 based box with 4MB of
RAM and two 20MB MFM drives that I got an RLL controller for and ran at
38MB each. It ran DR-DOS, XENIX-286 and Smalltalk V (which launched
under DOS and then took over in protected mode).
The first computer I used was an 1BM-1130 with 4K words of core
(yes real beads on wires core), three 1.5MB disks, a 1442 card reader
and a 1403 printer (not the N1 so no coffee thrown round the room).

Wow, thatâs a BIG 1130. Did you have 32K memory also?

It had 4K words so yes 32K bytes -

The 1130 was a 16 bit machine so 4K was 8K bytes.

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
there was also a paper tape
reader/punch that I'm pretty sure wasn't IBM but I forget what it was. The
biggest single box was the channel box for the printer.

IBM resold some other people's peripherals, like the 1627 which was a Calcomp drum
plotter. The 1134 paper tape reader doesn't look like an IBM produect but I don't
know who made it.

In theory you could run an 1130 from paper tape rather than cards but I
never heard of anyone trying it.

--
Regards,
John Levine, ***@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

Peter Flass

2022-01-14 19:43:20 UTC

Wow, that’s a BIG 1130. Did you have 32K memory also?

It had 4K words so yes 32K bytes -

The 1130 was a 16 bit machine so 4K was 8K bytes.

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
there was also a paper tape
reader/punch that I'm pretty sure wasn't IBM but I forget what it was. The
biggest single box was the channel box for the printer.

IBM resold some other people's peripherals, like the 1627 which was a Calcomp drum
plotter. The 1134 paper tape reader doesn't look like an IBM produect but I don't
know who made it.
In theory you could run an 1130 from paper tape rather than cards but I
never heard of anyone trying it.

From comments I’ve seen, I think paper tape was more popular in Rightpondia
than in the US, for some reason. It was also obviously better for
typesetting applications. I never saw it either.

--
Pete

Charlie Gibbs

2022-01-14 21:16:03 UTC

Post by John Levine
In theory you could run an 1130 from paper tape rather than cards but I
never heard of anyone trying it.

From comments I’ve seen, I think paper tape was more popular in Rightpondia
than in the US, for some reason. It was also obviously better for
typesetting applications. I never saw it either.

In general it wasn't very common, but when I was working in a service
bureau a lot of our customers did accounting on adding machines with
a paper tape punch attached. I became the local paper tape guru,
figuring out how to handle the various formats that came in.
We had a third-party paper tape reader, made by Regnecentralen,
that was kludged onto the Univac 9300's multiplexer channel. It
had a servo-driven capstan and a 256-byte core buffer which it
tried to keep half full, and it would run at up to 2000 frames
per second to do so. It wasn't often we were able to accept data
at that speed - but I just had to write a program that did so, so I
could watch the tape fly through the machine at 200 inches per second.

John Levine

2022-01-14 21:58:34 UTC

Post by Charlie Gibbs
that was kludged onto the Univac 9300's multiplexer channel. It
had a servo-driven capstan and a 256-byte core buffer which it
tried to keep half full, and it would run at up to 2000 frames
per second to do so. It wasn't often we were able to accept data
at that speed - but I just had to write a program that did so, so I
could watch the tape fly through the machine at 200 inches per second.

The fastest paper tape reader I ever used only ran at 300 fps, attached
to a PDP-10, but I've seen the rebuilt Colossus at Bletchley Park
whose tape reader runs at 5000 cps reading an endless loop. It's
pretty impressive, even 75 years later.

--
Regards,
John Levine, ***@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

Robin Vowels

2022-01-15 15:21:55 UTC

that was kludged onto the Univac 9300's multiplexer channel. It
had a servo-driven capstan and a 256-byte core buffer which it
tried to keep half full, and it would run at up to 2000 frames
per second to do so. It wasn't often we were able to accept data
at that speed - but I just had to write a program that did so, so I
could watch the tape fly through the machine at 200 inches per second.

KDF9's paper tape reader ran at 1,000 cps. and could stop between
characters.
DEUCE used the same paper tape reader at 850 cps.
IBM S/360 paper tape reader also ran at 1000 cps,
but when "upgraded" with spooling, its speed dropped to 500 cps.

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

2022-01-14 21:58:51 UTC

On Fri, 14 Jan 2022 21:16:03 GMT

Post by Charlie Gibbs
and it would run at up to 2000 frames
per second to do so. It wasn't often we were able to accept data
at that speed - but I just had to write a program that did so, so I
could watch the tape fly through the machine at 200 inches per second.

Wow! that's very fast paper tape. Keep fingers well clear, that
speed would bring paper cuts to a whole new level of oops.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

Charlie Gibbs

2022-01-15 21:43:46 UTC

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Fri, 14 Jan 2022 21:16:03 GMT

Wow! that's very fast paper tape. Keep fingers well clear, that
speed would bring paper cuts to a whole new level of oops.

Actually, we ran into a totally different problem when we finally got
a job where we had to read large volumes of data directly from paper
tapes to disk. The reader had no tape-spooling facilities; you'd
place a roll of paper tape into a compartment in the machine, and
the tape, once read, would spew out the side, where we'd place a
large trash bin to collect it (and subsequently rewind it with a
hand-cranked gadget). Running a large roll of tape through the
reader at full speed built up a static charge large enough to
generate a spark which would crash the computer. I rigged a
grounded chain of paper clips so that the tape would hit it
while coming out of the reader. Even then we had to set up
a kettle in the room so that the cloud of steam would help
to bleed off the charge.

Dan Espen

2022-01-14 22:54:39 UTC

Post by John Levine
In theory you could run an 1130 from paper tape rather than cards but I
never heard of anyone trying it.

From comments I’ve seen, I think paper tape was more popular in Rightpondia
than in the US, for some reason. It was also obviously better for
typesetting applications. I never saw it either.

IBM sold a keypunch machine that could be driven from paper tape.
One place I worked we got adding machine paper tapes from our branch
offices, fed the paper tape into the keypunch and punched cards then
fed the cards into the 1442 on the 1440.

--
Dan Espen

John W Gintell

2022-01-16 16:11:14 UTC

Post by John Levine
In theory you could run an 1130 from paper tape rather than cards but I
never heard of anyone trying it.

From comments I’ve seen, I think paper tape was more popular in Rightpondia
than in the US, for some reason. It was also obviously better for
typesetting applications. I never saw it either.

My first computer was an IBM 1620 with paper tape input and output. We wrote
our programs on paper, punched cards, and then used a card-to-paper tape
converter. 1961.

D.J.

2022-01-15 17:05:47 UTC

On Fri, 14 Jan 2022 12:43:20 -0700, Peter Flass

Wow, thats a BIG 1130. Did you have 32K memory also?

It had 4K words so yes 32K bytes -

The 1130 was a 16 bit machine so 4K was 8K bytes.

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
there was also a paper tape
reader/punch that I'm pretty sure wasn't IBM but I forget what it was. The
biggest single box was the channel box for the printer.

IBM resold some other people's peripherals, like the 1627 which was a Calcomp drum
plotter. The 1134 paper tape reader doesn't look like an IBM produect but I don't
know who made it.
In theory you could run an 1130 from paper tape rather than cards but I
never heard of anyone trying it.

From comments Ive seen, I think paper tape was more popular in Rightpondia
than in the US, for some reason. It was also obviously better for
typesetting applications. I never saw it either.

When I was at university, around 1977, I saw a papertape device, they
told us it was a computer, that could be setup to run lights and
sounds for a theatrical production in the main university theater.

It could be sped up, or slowed down, some if the actors sped up a
scene or slowed down a scene.
--
Jim

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

2022-01-14 20:09:27 UTC

On Fri, 14 Jan 2022 18:46:40 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
The first computer I owned was an 80286 based box with 4MB of
RAM and two 20MB MFM drives that I got an RLL controller for and ran
at 38MB each. It ran DR-DOS, XENIX-286 and Smalltalk V (which
launched under DOS and then took over in protected mode).
The first computer I used was an 1BM-1130 with 4K words of
core (yes real beads on wires core), three 1.5MB disks, a 1442 card
reader and a 1403 printer (not the N1 so no coffee thrown round the
room).

Wow, that’s a BIG 1130. Did you have 32K memory also?

It had 4K words so yes 32K bytes -

The 1130 was a 16 bit machine so 4K was 8K bytes.

Doh! It was definitely 4K words - nobody ever mentioned bytes.

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
there was also a paper tape
reader/punch that I'm pretty sure wasn't IBM but I forget what it was.
The biggest single box was the channel box for the printer.

IBM resold some other people's peripherals, like the 1627 which was a
Calcomp drum plotter. The 1134 paper tape reader doesn't look like an
IBM produect but I don't know who made it.

It wasn't an 1134, it was a reader and punch in one box that ran a
lot faster, 200cps IIRC - that's one reason I'm pretty sure it wasn't an IBM
AFAIK they didn't have one like it.

Post by John Levine
In theory you could run an 1130 from paper tape rather than cards but I
never heard of anyone trying it.

The main use for paper tape there was schools. Many schools
(including mine) had teletypes and each day some sixth former would send
all the student's tapes that were queued up through resulting in one tape
with a bunch of BASIC jobs on it at the tech. This tape would then be fed
into the reader and the resulting output punched, with each job separated by
space and headed by the kid's initials punched in 5x7 dot matrix.
Yesterday's output tape would be sent back at the same time as today's jobs
were going through - the ASR-33 reader and punch both going at once made a
nicely visible (and audible) demonstration of full duplex comms.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

Michael Trew

2022-01-12 21:01:11 UTC

Post by meff
Hey,
Is this group only about older computers? And how old is old? I'm not
too young myself but a lot of the machines I see in recent posts are
older than I am.

No, not necessarily. I'd bet that I'm the youngest here (in my mid
20's). I primarily lurk, and enjoy reading many of the posts, as time
allows. The oldest "computer system" that I have personal experience
with is an IBM System/23, from well before my time. I still have it in
the cellar; it came from my father's former radio station employer.

Otherwise, I've tinkered back to Apple 2/C and a Texas Instruments
TI-99/4a PC. I've had lots of early 90's+ MS-DOS and Windows 3.x/95/98
machines that family friends gave me as a child (when they upgraded) to
tinker with. I still have a couple dozen of these old PC's and laptops
in storage, and their prices are actually coming back around as a
collector item. Time to sell them off soon, I think.

meff

2022-01-12 21:04:54 UTC

Post by Michael Trew
No, not necessarily. I'd bet that I'm the youngest here (in my mid
20's). I primarily lurk, and enjoy reading many of the posts, as time
allows.

Wow you are actually a few years younger than I am! 😅

Ant

2022-01-13 06:24:23 UTC

Post by Michael Trew
No, not necessarily. I'd bet that I'm the youngest here (in my mid
20's). I primarily lurk, and enjoy reading many of the posts, as time
allows.

Wow you are actually a few years younger than I am! ????

I wonder who is the oldest and youngest in this newsgroup. ;)

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

2022-01-13 07:37:25 UTC

On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 00:24:23 -0600

Post by Michael Trew
No, not necessarily. I'd bet that I'm the youngest here (in my mid
20's). I primarily lurk, and enjoy reading many of the posts, as
time allows.

Wow you are actually a few years younger than I am! ????

I wonder who is the oldest and youngest in this newsgroup. ;)

At 63 I'm a long way from being either, I might not even be the
oldest still working as a developer (current version of analyst/programmer)
but I negotiated my mandatory retirement age to 70 so I probably will be in
a few years time.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

D.J.

2022-01-13 18:08:53 UTC

On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 07:37:25 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 00:24:23 -0600

Post by Michael Trew
No, not necessarily. I'd bet that I'm the youngest here (in my mid
20's). I primarily lurk, and enjoy reading many of the posts, as
time allows.

Wow you are actually a few years younger than I am! ????

I wonder who is the oldest and youngest in this newsgroup. ;)

I'm over 70 years, getting on towards 80.
--
Jim

Charlie Gibbs

2022-01-13 18:50:30 UTC

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 00:24:23 -0600

Post by Michael Trew
No, not necessarily. I'd bet that I'm the youngest here (in my mid
20's). I primarily lurk, and enjoy reading many of the posts, as
time allows.

Wow you are actually a few years younger than I am! ????

I wonder who is the oldest and youngest in this newsgroup. ;)

At 63 I'm a long way from being either, I might not even be the
oldest still working as a developer (current version of analyst/programmer)

At a PPOE my job title of "programmer-analyst" was truncated to
15 characters to fit the fixed-length field in the employee master
file, so I became a PROGRAMMER-ANAL. I always considered that an
appropriate description of the required qualities. :-)

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
but I negotiated my mandatory retirement age to 70 so I probably will be in
a few years time.

I'm working for a small outfit that doesn't have all the bureaucracy
messing things up, and at 71 they're still quite happy to keep me around
maintaining the infrastructure while the youngsters work on the eye candy.

Rich Alderson

2022-01-13 21:45:03 UTC

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 00:24:23 -0600

Post by Michael Trew
No, not necessarily. I'd bet that I'm the youngest here (in my mid
20's). I primarily lurk, and enjoy reading many of the posts, as
time allows.

Wow you are actually a few years younger than I am! ????

I wonder who is the oldest and youngest in this newsgroup. ;)

I'm 70 now, and officially retired, but since Living Computers: Museum+Labs
closed in 2020 I've been doing contract work updating programming tools for a
well known architecture developed by DEC in 1964, first moving them into the
1980s (native OS vs. system call emulation), then into the 21st Century (large
memory model).

--
Rich Alderson ***@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen

Vir Campestris

2022-01-13 22:05:48 UTC

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
At 63 I'm a long way from being either, I might not even be the
oldest still working as a developer (current version of analyst/programmer)
but I negotiated my mandatory retirement age to 70 so I probably will be in
a few years time.

I'm the same age as you, and I just put my notice in today to retire in
a few months.

But just because I won't be _paid_ to write code any more doesn't mean I
won't do any. I just won't have deadlines.

Andy

Peter Flass

2022-01-13 22:44:43 UTC

I'm the same age as you, and I just put my notice in today to retire in
a few months.
But just because I won't be _paid_ to write code any more doesn't mean I
won't do any. I just won't have deadlines.

:-)

Post by Vir Campestris
Andy

--
Pete

Charles Richmond

2022-01-14 04:20:12 UTC

At 63 I'm a long way from being either, I might not even be the
oldest still working as a developer (current version of
analyst/programmer)
but I negotiated my mandatory retirement age to 70 so I probably will be in
a few years time.

I'm the same age as you, and I just put my notice in today to retire in
a few months.
But just because I won't be _paid_ to write code any more doesn't mean I
won't do any. I just won't have deadlines.

"I love deadlines. I love the whoooshing sound they make as they go
by!!!" ;-)

--
Charles Richmond
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

2022-01-14 06:57:27 UTC

On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 22:05:48 +0000

Post by Vir Campestris
But just because I won't be _paid_ to write code any more doesn't mean I
won't do any. I just won't have deadlines.

Ah yes, but with the deadlines come the big toys and I'm having
too much fun with them - besides there's an IPO to ride out :)

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

Scott Lurndal

2022-01-13 15:29:04 UTC

Post by Michael Trew
No, not necessarily. I'd bet that I'm the youngest here (in my mid
20's). I primarily lurk, and enjoy reading many of the posts, as time
allows.

Wow you are actually a few years younger than I am! ????

I wonder who is the oldest and youngest in this newsgroup. ;)

Dan Espen and Lynn Wheeler probably compete for the title Eldest.

Dan Espen

2022-01-13 19:11:00 UTC

Post by Michael Trew
No, not necessarily. I'd bet that I'm the youngest here (in my mid
20's). I primarily lurk, and enjoy reading many of the posts, as time
allows.

Wow you are actually a few years younger than I am! ????

I wonder who is the oldest and youngest in this newsgroup. ;)

Dan Espen and Lynn Wheeler probably compete for the title Eldest.

I don't know about Lynn, but I'm only 76. We have another frequent poster
older than me, but I am old, the name escapes me at the moment.

--
Dan Espen

D.J.

2022-01-13 22:46:40 UTC

Post by Michael Trew
No, not necessarily. I'd bet that I'm the youngest here (in my mid
20's). I primarily lurk, and enjoy reading many of the posts, as time
allows.

Wow you are actually a few years younger than I am! ????

I wonder who is the oldest and youngest in this newsgroup. ;)

Dan Espen and Lynn Wheeler probably compete for the title Eldest.

I don't know about Lynn, but I'm only 76. We have another frequent poster
older than me, but I am old, the name escapes me at the moment.

I know I'm older than BAH.
--
Jim

Scott Lurndal

2022-01-13 23:20:11 UTC

Post by Michael Trew
No, not necessarily. I'd bet that I'm the youngest here (in my mid
20's). I primarily lurk, and enjoy reading many of the posts, as time
allows.

Wow you are actually a few years younger than I am! ????

I wonder who is the oldest and youngest in this newsgroup. ;)

Dan Espen and Lynn Wheeler probably compete for the title Eldest.

I don't know about Lynn, but I'm only 76. We have another frequent poster
older than me, but I am old, the name escapes me at the moment.

I know I'm older than BAH.

guessing, but seems about right (results from a google search on her name):

Barbara A Huizenga
Holland, MI

05.10.50 is the birth date of Barbara. Barbara has reached
71 years of age. Holland, MI 49423-6630
is where Barbara lives.

Charlie Gibbs

2022-01-14 01:24:42 UTC

Post by Michael Trew
No, not necessarily. I'd bet that I'm the youngest here (in my mid
20's). I primarily lurk, and enjoy reading many of the posts, as time
allows.

Wow you are actually a few years younger than I am! ????

I wonder who is the oldest and youngest in this newsgroup. ;)

Dan Espen and Lynn Wheeler probably compete for the title Eldest.

I don't know about Lynn, but I'm only 76. We have another frequent poster
older than me, but I am old, the name escapes me at the moment.

I don't know whether Gene Heskett is here, but he's a regular
on the Debian mailing list and he's well into his 80s.

Charles Richmond

2022-01-14 04:24:53 UTC

[snip...] [snip...] [snip...]

Post by Ant
I wonder who is the oldest and youngest in this newsgroup. ;)

Dan Espen and Lynn Wheeler probably compete for the title Eldest.

I don't know about Lynn, but I'm only 76. We have another frequent poster
older than me, but I am old, the name escapes me at the moment.

"There are three basic indications of old age. First is loss of
memory... and I can *not* recall the other two." ;-)

--
Charles Richmond
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Ant

2022-01-14 07:23:41 UTC

Post by Charles Richmond
[snip...] [snip...] [snip...]

Post by Ant
I wonder who is the oldest and youngest in this newsgroup. ;)

Dan Espen and Lynn Wheeler probably compete for the title Eldest.

I don't know about Lynn, but I'm only 76. We have another frequent poster
older than me, but I am old, the name escapes me at the moment.

"There are three basic indications of old age. First is loss of
memory... and I can *not* recall the other two." ;-)

Ha, I'm decades younger than you guys and I forget too easily. :(

Peter Flass

2022-01-13 22:44:40 UTC

Post by Michael Trew
No, not necessarily. I'd bet that I'm the youngest here (in my mid
20's). I primarily lurk, and enjoy reading many of the posts, as time
allows.

Wow you are actually a few years younger than I am! ????

I wonder who is the oldest and youngest in this newsgroup. ;)

Dan Espen and Lynn Wheeler probably compete for the title Eldest.

I’m only 75, so it’s definitely not me. I just missed the 1401 era, and got
into the biz just as everyone was upgrading to new 360s.

--
Pete

Dan Espen

2022-01-14 01:14:54 UTC

Post by Michael Trew
No, not necessarily. I'd bet that I'm the youngest here (in my mid
20's). I primarily lurk, and enjoy reading many of the posts, as time
allows.

Wow you are actually a few years younger than I am! ????

I wonder who is the oldest and youngest in this newsgroup. ;)

Dan Espen and Lynn Wheeler probably compete for the title Eldest.

I’m only 75, so it’s definitely not me. I just missed the 1401 era, and got
into the biz just as everyone was upgrading to new 360s.

Too bad you missed the 1401. A really neat machine with no OS or vendor
code to get in the way.

I got a couple of years in with real 1401s, then off and on did 1401 under
emulation for 5 or 10 years after that.

--
Dan Espen

Kerr-Mudd, John

2022-01-14 09:44:11 UTC

On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 15:44:40 -0700

Post by Michael Trew
No, not necessarily. I'd bet that I'm the youngest here (in my mid
20's). I primarily lurk, and enjoy reading many of the posts, as time
allows.

Wow you are actually a few years younger than I am! ????

I wonder who is the oldest and youngest in this newsgroup. ;)

Dan Espen and Lynn Wheeler probably compete for the title Eldest.

I’m only 75, so it’s definitely not me. I just missed the 1401 era, and got
into the biz just as everyone was upgrading to new 360s.

Chap I first worked with used to reminisce about Autocoder.
The 360 system stuff used to sound great but I didn't quite grasp all those TIOTs and JFCBs

I never really got the hang of RPG. or Forth (there's still an active NG For That).

(I stuck to application coding in COBOL, until PCs came along)

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Dan Espen

2022-01-14 12:54:43 UTC

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 15:44:40 -0700

Post by Michael Trew
No, not necessarily. I'd bet that I'm the youngest here (in my mid
20's). I primarily lurk, and enjoy reading many of the posts, as time
allows.

Wow you are actually a few years younger than I am! ????

I wonder who is the oldest and youngest in this newsgroup. ;)

Dan Espen and Lynn Wheeler probably compete for the title Eldest.

I’m only 75, so it’s definitely not me. I just missed the 1401 era, and got
into the biz just as everyone was upgrading to new 360s.

Chap I first worked with used to reminisce about Autocoder.
The 360 system stuff used to sound great but I didn't quite grasp all those TIOTs and JFCBs
I never really got the hang of RPG. or Forth (there's still an active NG For That).
(I stuck to application coding in COBOL, until PCs came along)

When S/360 was announced I was working at a 1440 shop with a 12K system.
We started to get feelers from IBM to move to S/360.
I read POPs and concluded that 64K minimum would be needed.
The IBM salesman wasn't happy, brought it back to his own technical
people and had to admit the truth.

I was thinking autocoder to asm. If I had known how much memory COBOL
needed I would have gone with 128K.

--
Dan Espen

Peter Flass

2022-01-14 19:43:19 UTC

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 15:44:40 -0700

Post by Michael Trew
No, not necessarily. I'd bet that I'm the youngest here (in my mid
20's). I primarily lurk, and enjoy reading many of the posts, as time
allows.

Wow you are actually a few years younger than I am! ????

I wonder who is the oldest and youngest in this newsgroup. ;)

Dan Espen and Lynn Wheeler probably compete for the title Eldest.

I’m only 75, so it’s definitely not me. I just missed the 1401 era, and got
into the biz just as everyone was upgrading to new 360s.

Chap I first worked with used to reminisce about Autocoder.
The 360 system stuff used to sound great but I didn't quite grasp all
those TIOTs and JFCBs
I never really got the hang of RPG. or Forth (there's still an active NG For That).
(I stuck to application coding in COBOL, until PCs came along)

When S/360 was announced I was working at a 1440 shop with a 12K system.
We started to get feelers from IBM to move to S/360.
I read POPs and concluded that 64K minimum would be needed.
The IBM salesman wasn't happy, brought it back to his own technical
people and had to admit the truth.
I was thinking autocoder to asm. If I had known how much memory COBOL
needed I would have gone with 128K.

We did a lot of COBOL on a 32K 360/30. One big report program I had to code
overlays. It was my first experience with overlays and I didn’t do a very
good job of structuring it. I’d love to take what I know now and rewrite
it. PL/I was more problematic.

--
Pete

Dan Espen

2022-01-14 20:52:25 UTC

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 15:44:40 -0700

Post by Michael Trew
No, not necessarily. I'd bet that I'm the youngest here (in my
mid 20's). I primarily lurk, and enjoy reading many of the
posts, as time allows.

Wow you are actually a few years younger than I am! ????

I wonder who is the oldest and youngest in this newsgroup. ;)

Dan Espen and Lynn Wheeler probably compete for the title Eldest.

I’m only 75, so it’s definitely not me. I just missed the 1401 era,
and got into the biz just as everyone was upgrading to new 360s.

Chap I first worked with used to reminisce about Autocoder. The 360
system stuff used to sound great but I didn't quite grasp all those
TIOTs and JFCBs
I never really got the hang of RPG. or Forth (there's still an active NG For That).
(I stuck to application coding in COBOL, until PCs came along)

When S/360 was announced I was working at a 1440 shop with a 12K
system. We started to get feelers from IBM to move to S/360. I read
POPs and concluded that 64K minimum would be needed. The IBM
salesman wasn't happy, brought it back to his own technical people
and had to admit the truth.
I was thinking autocoder to asm. If I had known how much memory
COBOL needed I would have gone with 128K.

We did a lot of COBOL on a 32K 360/30. One big report program I had to
code overlays. It was my first experience with overlays and I didn’t
do a very good job of structuring it. I’d love to take what I know now
and rewrite it. PL/I was more problematic.

Next site I went to had a 64K 360/30. I had a file update program that
wouldn't fit without overlays. This was early in my career but I think
the thing was well written.

Next project at the same site was online order entry with 2260s.
Written in Assembler, it did manage to fit in 32K. By that time the
system was 128K. It still needed to support batch.

As far as cramming code into storage S/360 couldn't even come close to a
14xx.

--
Dan Espen

Anne & Lynn Wheeler

2022-01-15 03:42:29 UTC

Post by Peter Flass
We did a lot of COBOL on a 32K 360/30. One big report program I had to code
overlays. It was my first experience with overlays and I didn’t do a very
good job of structuring it. I’d love to take what I know now and rewrite
it. PL/I was more problematic.

trivia: end of semester after taking 2 semester hr intro
fortran/computers, I was hired as student programmer to reimplement 1401
MPIO (tape<->unit record) on 360/30 (64k, run os/360 PCP) .. given 360
princ-ops, assembler, bunch of hardware manuals and got to design my own
monitor, device drivers, interrupt handlers, error recovery, storage
management, etc ... within a few weeks had a 2000 card assembler program
run "stand-alone", loaded with BPS loader. I then added assemble option
that would generate version used os/360 GET/PUT/DCB macros. Stand-alone
version assembled (360/30, os/360 PCP) in 30mins ... GET/PUT/DCB version
assembled in an hour ... most of the added time was the DCB macros
... could watch it in the console lights when it was doing the DCB
macros.

the univ. shutdown the datacenter over the weekend and I had the place
all to myself, although monday morning classes could be difficult after
48hrs w/o sleep. the univ. had been sold 360/67 (for tss/360) to replace
709/1401, the 360/30 temporarily replaced 1401 in transition to
360/67. TSS/360 never came to production fruition and so ran 360/67 as
360/65 with os/360. Within year of taking intro class, I was hired
fulltime responsible for os/360.

Three people from cambridge science center came out last week of Jan1968
to install CP67 (virtual machine precursor to VM370) ... it never really
was production at the univ. but I got to play with it in my 48hr window
when univ. shutdown datacenter on the weekend and I had it all to
myself. At that time, all the CP67 source were files on OS/360 (and
assembled on OS/360. The assembled text decks for the system were
arraigned in a card tray with BPS loader in the front. The BPS loader
would be IPLed and the CP67 initiliazing routine (CPINIT) would write
the memory image to disk for "system" IPL. A few months later, they
shipped a version where all the source files were on CMS and assembled
on CMS.

I started by rewriting a lot of CP67 pathlengths significantly cutting
time for running OS/360 in virtual machine. Old (1994 afc) post with
part of 1968 SHARE presentation on the reduction in CP67 pathlength.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#18

OS jobstream on bare machine 323secs, originally running in CP67 virtual
machine 856secs, CP67 overhead 533 CPU secs. After some of the
pathlength rewrite, runtime: 435 secs, CP67 overhead 112 CPU secs
... reducing CP67 CPU overhead from 533 to 112 CPU secs, reduction of
421 CPU secs.

I continued to do pathlength optimization along with a lot of other
stuff, dynamic adaptive resource management & scheduling algorithm, new
page replacement algorithms, optimized I/O for arm seek ordering and
disk&drum rotation, etc.

At some point, I also started reorganizing a lot of the fixed kernel to
make parts of it pageable (to reduce the fixed memory requirements) and
ran into a problem with the BPS loader. Part of making pieces of kernel
pageable was splitting some modules up into 4k segments, which increased
the number of TXT ESD entry symbols. The BPS loader had a table limit of
255 ESD entry symbols ... and I had all sorts of difficulty keeping the
pageable kernel reorganization under 256 ESD symbols. Later after
graduating and joining IBM Science Center, I was going through a card
cabinet in the attic storage area ... and ran across the source for the
BPS loader ... which I immediately collected and modified to support
more than 255 ESD symbols.

trivia: in morph of CP67->VM370 ... they greatly simplified and/or
dropped lots of CP67 features, including SMP multiprocessor support and
much of the stuff I had done as undergraduate in the 60s. When I joined
IBM, one of my hobbies was advanced production operating systems for
internal datacenters ... the datacenters were then moving off of 360/67
to increasing numbers of 370s w/vm370. I spent part of 1974 putting a
lot of the dropped CP67 stuff back into VM370 until I was ready to start
shipping my CSC/VM for internal datacenters in 1975.

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

Peter Flass

2022-01-14 19:43:18 UTC

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 15:44:40 -0700

Post by Michael Trew
No, not necessarily. I'd bet that I'm the youngest here (in my mid
20's). I primarily lurk, and enjoy reading many of the posts, as time
allows.

Wow you are actually a few years younger than I am! ????

I wonder who is the oldest and youngest in this newsgroup. ;)

Dan Espen and Lynn Wheeler probably compete for the title Eldest.

I’m only 75, so it’s definitely not me. I just missed the 1401 era, and got
into the biz just as everyone was upgrading to new 360s.

Chap I first worked with used to reminisce about Autocoder.
The 360 system stuff used to sound great but I didn't quite grasp all those TIOTs and JFCBs

I used to be able to access that stuff without having to refer to the
manual. I thought it was great fun! Sort of like playing Colossal Cave with
control blocks and pointers.

--
Pete

Michael Trew

2022-01-13 18:54:31 UTC

Post by Michael Trew
No, not necessarily. I'd bet that I'm the youngest here (in my mid
20's). I primarily lurk, and enjoy reading many of the posts, as time
allows.

Wow you are actually a few years younger than I am! ????

I wonder who is the oldest and youngest in this newsgroup. ;)

I'm 26 years old, to be specific.

D.J.

2022-01-12 22:09:12 UTC

On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 16:01:11 -0500, Michael Trew

Post by meff
Hey,
Is this group only about older computers? And how old is old? I'm not
too young myself but a lot of the machines I see in recent posts are
older than I am.

No, not necessarily. I'd bet that I'm the youngest here (in my mid
20's). I primarily lurk, and enjoy reading many of the posts, as time
allows. The oldest "computer system" that I have personal experience
with is an IBM System/23, from well before my time. I still have it in
the cellar; it came from my father's former radio station employer.
Otherwise, I've tinkered back to Apple 2/C and a Texas Instruments
TI-99/4a PC. I've had lots of early 90's+ MS-DOS and Windows 3.x/95/98
machines that family friends gave me as a child (when they upgraded) to
tinker with. I still have a couple dozen of these old PC's and laptops
in storage, and their prices are actually coming back around as a
collector item. Time to sell them off soon, I think.

My first computer was a Sinclair ZX-81 with later on the 16Kb ram
pack. Then an Amiga A1000 with a meg or so of ram. Then an A500 with a
meg or so of ram. Later an Amiga A3000 with two hard drives, my first
ones at home ever, one a 52 meg SCSI and the other a 105 mewg SCSI
drive. Probably not much more ram.

These days I have a Windoze 10 computer with 8 gigs of ram, a 1 gig
video card and a 1 terabyte internal hard drive.

My smallest, around here somewhere, thumb drive is 256 megs. Next one
is a 512 meg. The rest are 1 and multiple gigabyte thumb drives.

The first computers we had in the student lab at university were Tandy
1000s, XT compatibles. The secretary/admin assistants had Tandly Model
IVs running Scripsit, and the upper echolon of those folks had IBM
Selectric typewriters with extra fonts.

Student services had vacuum dumb termnals hooked up to the main frame
on main campus.
--
Jim

Scott Lurndal

2022-01-12 23:18:22 UTC

Post by D.J.
On Wed, 12 Jan 2022 16:01:11 -0500, Michael Trew

Post by meff
Hey,
Is this group only about older computers? And how old is old? I'm not
too young myself but a lot of the machines I see in recent posts are
older than I am.

No, not necessarily. I'd bet that I'm the youngest here (in my mid
20's). I primarily lurk, and enjoy reading many of the posts, as time
allows. The oldest "computer system" that I have personal experience
with is an IBM System/23, from well before my time. I still have it in
the cellar; it came from my father's former radio station employer.
Otherwise, I've tinkered back to Apple 2/C and a Texas Instruments
TI-99/4a PC. I've had lots of early 90's+ MS-DOS and Windows 3.x/95/98
machines that family friends gave me as a child (when they upgraded) to
tinker with. I still have a couple dozen of these old PC's and laptops
in storage, and their prices are actually coming back around as a
collector item. Time to sell them off soon, I think.

My first computer was a Sinclair ZX-81 with later on the 16Kb ram

The first computer I used was a Burroughs B5500 in the
early seventies, followed by a PDP-8, then an HP-3000,
PDP-11/34, Various VAXen, Burroughs B4955, 68k and 88k
unix systems, MPP systems from Unisys & SGI, etc.

Bob Eager

2022-01-13 00:53:41 UTC

Post by meff
Hey,
Is this group only about older computers? And how old is old? I'm not
too young myself but a lot of the machines I see in recent posts are
older than I am.

No, not necessarily. I'd bet that I'm the youngest here (in my mid
20's). I primarily lurk, and enjoy reading many of the posts, as time
allows. The oldest "computer system" that I have personal experience
with is an IBM System/23, from well before my time. I still have it in
the cellar; it came from my father's former radio station employer.
Otherwise, I've tinkered back to Apple 2/C and a Texas Instruments
TI-99/4a PC. I've had lots of early 90's+ MS-DOS and Windows 3.x/95/98
machines that family friends gave me as a child (when they upgraded) to
tinker with. I still have a couple dozen of these old PC's and laptops
in storage, and their prices are actually coming back around as a
collector item. Time to sell them off soon, I think.

My first computer was a Sinclair ZX-81 with later on the 16Kb ram

The first computer I used was a Burroughs B5500 in the early seventies,
followed by a PDP-8, then an HP-3000,
PDP-11/34, Various VAXen, Burroughs B4955, 68k and 88k unix systems, MPP
systems from Unisys & SGI, etc.

MIne was an Elliott 4130 (unusual). Then Honeywell 516 (where I hacked
the CPU hardware), then PDP-10, PDP-11, ICL 2900, VAX, PDP-8, ...

--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

Ant

2022-01-13 06:36:50 UTC

Post by Bob Eager

Post by meff
Hey,
Is this group only about older computers? And how old is old? I'm not
too young myself but a lot of the machines I see in recent posts are
older than I am.

No, not necessarily. I'd bet that I'm the youngest here (in my mid
20's). I primarily lurk, and enjoy reading many of the posts, as time
allows. The oldest "computer system" that I have personal experience
with is an IBM System/23, from well before my time. I still have it in
the cellar; it came from my father's former radio station employer.
Otherwise, I've tinkered back to Apple 2/C and a Texas Instruments
TI-99/4a PC. I've had lots of early 90's+ MS-DOS and Windows 3.x/95/98
machines that family friends gave me as a child (when they upgraded) to
tinker with. I still have a couple dozen of these old PC's and laptops
in storage, and their prices are actually coming back around as a
collector item. Time to sell them off soon, I think.

My first computer was a Sinclair ZX-81 with later on the 16Kb ram

The first computer I used was a Burroughs B5500 in the early seventies,
followed by a PDP-8, then an HP-3000,
PDP-11/34, Various VAXen, Burroughs B4955, 68k and 88k unix systems, MPP
systems from Unisys & SGI, etc.

MIne was an Elliott 4130 (unusual). Then Honeywell 516 (where I hacked
the CPU hardware), then PDP-10, PDP-11, ICL 2900, VAX, PDP-8, ...

Texas Instrument 99/4A was my first owned PC. Actually, my colony's.
http://zimage.com/~ant/antfarm/about/toys.html for my detailed history!
My colony and I are old. ;)

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

2022-01-13 07:40:29 UTC

On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 00:36:50 -0600

Post by Ant
Texas Instrument 99/4A was my first owned PC. Actually, my colony's.

Oh how I wanted a 9900 when they came out - I never did manage to
lay my hands on one though.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

Ant

2022-01-13 09:26:52 UTC

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 00:36:50 -0600

Post by Ant
Texas Instrument 99/4A was my first owned PC. Actually, my colony's.

Oh how I wanted a 9900 when they came out - I never did manage to
lay my hands on one though.

Well, you could probably get one now, used. ;)

Charles Richmond

2022-01-14 04:34:31 UTC

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 00:36:50 -0600

Post by Ant
Texas Instrument 99/4A was my first owned PC. Actually, my colony's.

Oh how I wanted a 9900 when they came out - I never did manage to
lay my hands on one though.

I have used a TI-99/4A. The problem with the machine is the video chip
ran very ***hot***!!! TI's solution was to attach the heat sink to the
metal of the top of the computer... so you could burn yourself just
touching it.

--
Charles Richmond
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Ant

2022-01-14 07:30:10 UTC

Post by Charles Richmond

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 00:36:50 -0600

Post by Ant
Texas Instrument 99/4A was my first owned PC. Actually, my colony's.

Oh how I wanted a 9900 when they came out - I never did manage to
lay my hands on one though.

Did those burn out a lot back then? Mine ran well for my colony and
neighbors (gave them it after we got an Apple //c).

Peter Flass

2022-01-13 22:44:39 UTC

Post by Bob Eager

Post by meff
Hey,
Is this group only about older computers? And how old is old? I'm not
too young myself but a lot of the machines I see in recent posts are
older than I am.

No, not necessarily. I'd bet that I'm the youngest here (in my mid
20's). I primarily lurk, and enjoy reading many of the posts, as time
allows. The oldest "computer system" that I have personal experience
with is an IBM System/23, from well before my time. I still have it in
the cellar; it came from my father's former radio station employer.
Otherwise, I've tinkered back to Apple 2/C and a Texas Instruments
TI-99/4a PC. I've had lots of early 90's+ MS-DOS and Windows 3.x/95/98
machines that family friends gave me as a child (when they upgraded) to
tinker with. I still have a couple dozen of these old PC's and laptops
in storage, and their prices are actually coming back around as a
collector item. Time to sell them off soon, I think.

My first computer was a Sinclair ZX-81 with later on the 16Kb ram

The first computer I used was a Burroughs B5500 in the early seventies,
followed by a PDP-8, then an HP-3000,
PDP-11/34, Various VAXen, Burroughs B4955, 68k and 88k unix systems, MPP
systems from Unisys & SGI, etc.

MIne was an Elliott 4130 (unusual). Then Honeywell 516 (where I hacked
the CPU hardware), then PDP-10, PDP-11, ICL 2900, VAX, PDP-8, ...

Texas Instrument 99/4A was my first owned PC. Actually, my colony's.
http://zimage.com/~ant/antfarm/about/toys.html for my detailed history!
My colony and I are old. ;)

I bought one of those for games. My daughter started programming on it,
which led to a career later. Since I had access to an IBM mainframe from
home I wasn’t desperate to get a home computer. Later I bought a PC clone
with 640K and one 5-1/4” floppy, later upgraded to two.

--
Pete

Thomas Koenig

2022-01-14 20:17:12 UTC

Post by Ant
Texas Instrument 99/4A was my first owned PC. Actually, my colony's.
http://zimage.com/~ant/antfarm/about/toys.html for my detailed history!
My colony and I are old. ;)

I bought one of those for games.

I hung around it in department stores (also used to go there to
play chess against the computers they had), but I ended up buying
a C64 instead.

The Ti99-4A appears to have been a strange design, basically a
really powerful 16-bit CPU crippled by the rest of the design.

My first exposure to programming were programmable pocket calculators.
The first one was a Casio owned by my father, which had 38 programming
steps (I think). I wrote a program to do factorization on it and
was quite proud that it finally managed to factorize 123456789.

Later, also for school, I had a Casio FX 602P. That was quite
powerful. I lost the calculator decades ago, but I still have
a list of the programs I wrote for it, including a Moon Lander.
There was also a hack by which you could jump into the middle of the
string and revert the meaning of opcodes and characters (I think).

With my C64, I wrote a program to calculate Golomb rulers after
an article in the German edition of Scientific American.

Afterwards, it was PCs, for which I wrote what was probably the
world's worst optimization program as far as algorithms were
concerned (but it did its job), an Atari ST, an IBM-compatible
mainframe under MVS, UNIX workstations, and finally my own Linux
box (Slackware 0. something, downloaded in the computer center
via 3,5" floppies). And the rest is history...

Ant

2022-01-14 22:30:00 UTC

Peter Flass <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
...

Post by Ant
Texas Instrument 99/4A was my first owned PC. Actually, my colony's.
http://zimage.com/~ant/antfarm/about/toys.html for my detailed history!
My colony and I are old. ;)

I bought one of those for games. My daughter started programming on it,
which led to a career later. Since I had access to an IBM mainframe from
home I wasn???t desperate to get a home computer. Later I bought a PC clone
with 640K and one 5-1/4??? floppy, later upgraded to two.

Funny. I was scared to use this very first computer until I discovered
it could do games like Munch Man, A-maze-ing, TI Invaders, Cars Wars,
Tombstone City, etc. It was a-maze-ing to me over my rad Atari 2600! ;)
I remember my parents wanted me to learn how to use a computer like
typing. Even my queen used its BASIC and tape drive to do simple
codings.

Peter Flass

2022-01-13 22:44:36 UTC