Discussion:
Compliments to Microsoft ! (Yes, Really!)
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gareth evans
2020-08-12 12:44:45 UTC
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Permalink
Despite McAfee and firewalls etc, I suffered a catastrophic virus at
the weekend, with websites reporting strange errors. Now, it was quite
possible that the router had been hacked. I'd had problems with that
router before and had been advised (5 years ago) to upgrade it. I did
buy a replacement but never got around to it (Never put off till
tomorrow what you can put off till the day after, although perhaps
5 years a stretching point somewhat :-) ).

I changed the router and for belt and braces re-installed W10 from
the recovery partition with the downside that all other programs,
including Microsoft Office, were lost.

Now, how to get Microsoft Office re-installed but without getting
sucked in to the annual subscription of Office365?

Lo! And Behold! For many years now, Microsoft Office has no longer
been supplied on a CD and you had to download it, and Mirabile Dictu,
Microsoft still had a record of my email address and my subscription
to Office 2013, and a slight diversion to resolve the Forgot Password
dilemma, and I downloaded and re-installed Microsoft Office.

Well done Microsoft!

But, there's a downside, in that W10 now insists on a Cortana pop-up
every few minutes and also miniaturises your screen, and it is no wonder
that comments on the Internet proscribe W10 as a virus in itself!

Happy Days!
JimP
2020-08-12 16:16:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 13:44:45 +0100, gareth evans
Post by gareth evans
Despite McAfee and firewalls etc, I suffered a catastrophic virus at
the weekend, with websites reporting strange errors. Now, it was quite
possible that the router had been hacked. I'd had problems with that
router before and had been advised (5 years ago) to upgrade it. I did
buy a replacement but never got around to it (Never put off till
tomorrow what you can put off till the day after, although perhaps
5 years a stretching point somewhat :-) ).
I changed the router and for belt and braces re-installed W10 from
the recovery partition with the downside that all other programs,
including Microsoft Office, were lost.
Now, how to get Microsoft Office re-installed but without getting
sucked in to the annual subscription of Office365?
Lo! And Behold! For many years now, Microsoft Office has no longer
been supplied on a CD and you had to download it, and Mirabile Dictu,
Microsoft still had a record of my email address and my subscription
to Office 2013, and a slight diversion to resolve the Forgot Password
dilemma, and I downloaded and re-installed Microsoft Office.
Well done Microsoft!
But, there's a downside, in that W10 now insists on a Cortana pop-up
every few minutes and also miniaturises your screen, and it is no wonder
that comments on the Internet proscribe W10 as a virus in itself!
Happy Days!
I suggest reading the tutorials at: https://www.tenforums.com/

I have found them to be very helpful in regards to Win 10.
--
Jim
gareth evans
2020-08-12 16:55:21 UTC
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Permalink
Post by JimP
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 13:44:45 +0100, gareth evans
Post by gareth evans
Despite McAfee and firewalls etc, I suffered a catastrophic virus at
the weekend, with websites reporting strange errors. Now, it was quite
possible that the router had been hacked. I'd had problems with that
router before and had been advised (5 years ago) to upgrade it. I did
buy a replacement but never got around to it (Never put off till
tomorrow what you can put off till the day after, although perhaps
5 years a stretching point somewhat :-) ).
I changed the router and for belt and braces re-installed W10 from
the recovery partition with the downside that all other programs,
including Microsoft Office, were lost.
Now, how to get Microsoft Office re-installed but without getting
sucked in to the annual subscription of Office365?
Lo! And Behold! For many years now, Microsoft Office has no longer
been supplied on a CD and you had to download it, and Mirabile Dictu,
Microsoft still had a record of my email address and my subscription
to Office 2013, and a slight diversion to resolve the Forgot Password
dilemma, and I downloaded and re-installed Microsoft Office.
Well done Microsoft!
But, there's a downside, in that W10 now insists on a Cortana pop-up
every few minutes and also miniaturises your screen, and it is no wonder
that comments on the Internet proscribe W10 as a virus in itself!
Happy Days!
I suggest reading the tutorials at: https://www.tenforums.com/
I have found them to be very helpful in regards to Win 10.
Thanks for the hint, but I'd been using W10 for over a year and had not
experienced any of these annoying funnies before. In fact, by
recovering from the disk partition I'd assumed that I'd be getting the
same version as before but it seems not so.

There's one remaining irritation; every so often my screen mutates to a
tiny version at top left and there is blurb about a timeline. Any idea
how to stop that irritation?
JimP
2020-08-12 19:47:39 UTC
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Permalink
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:55:21 +0100, gareth evans
Post by gareth evans
Post by JimP
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 13:44:45 +0100, gareth evans
Post by gareth evans
Despite McAfee and firewalls etc, I suffered a catastrophic virus at
the weekend, with websites reporting strange errors. Now, it was quite
possible that the router had been hacked. I'd had problems with that
router before and had been advised (5 years ago) to upgrade it. I did
buy a replacement but never got around to it (Never put off till
tomorrow what you can put off till the day after, although perhaps
5 years a stretching point somewhat :-) ).
I changed the router and for belt and braces re-installed W10 from
the recovery partition with the downside that all other programs,
including Microsoft Office, were lost.
Now, how to get Microsoft Office re-installed but without getting
sucked in to the annual subscription of Office365?
Lo! And Behold! For many years now, Microsoft Office has no longer
been supplied on a CD and you had to download it, and Mirabile Dictu,
Microsoft still had a record of my email address and my subscription
to Office 2013, and a slight diversion to resolve the Forgot Password
dilemma, and I downloaded and re-installed Microsoft Office.
Well done Microsoft!
But, there's a downside, in that W10 now insists on a Cortana pop-up
every few minutes and also miniaturises your screen, and it is no wonder
that comments on the Internet proscribe W10 as a virus in itself!
Happy Days!
I suggest reading the tutorials at: https://www.tenforums.com/
I have found them to be very helpful in regards to Win 10.
Thanks for the hint, but I'd been using W10 for over a year and had not
experienced any of these annoying funnies before. In fact, by
recovering from the disk partition I'd assumed that I'd be getting the
same version as before but it seems not so.
There's one remaining irritation; every so often my screen mutates to a
tiny version at top left and there is blurb about a timeline. Any idea
how to stop that irritation?
Nope, which is why I suggested that site. You don't have to create an
account to use the tutorials.
--
Jim
gareth evans
2020-08-12 20:30:52 UTC
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Permalink
Post by JimP
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:55:21 +0100, gareth evans
Post by gareth evans
Post by JimP
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 13:44:45 +0100, gareth evans
Post by gareth evans
Despite McAfee and firewalls etc, I suffered a catastrophic virus at
the weekend, with websites reporting strange errors. Now, it was quite
possible that the router had been hacked. I'd had problems with that
router before and had been advised (5 years ago) to upgrade it. I did
buy a replacement but never got around to it (Never put off till
tomorrow what you can put off till the day after, although perhaps
5 years a stretching point somewhat :-) ).
I changed the router and for belt and braces re-installed W10 from
the recovery partition with the downside that all other programs,
including Microsoft Office, were lost.
Now, how to get Microsoft Office re-installed but without getting
sucked in to the annual subscription of Office365?
Lo! And Behold! For many years now, Microsoft Office has no longer
been supplied on a CD and you had to download it, and Mirabile Dictu,
Microsoft still had a record of my email address and my subscription
to Office 2013, and a slight diversion to resolve the Forgot Password
dilemma, and I downloaded and re-installed Microsoft Office.
Well done Microsoft!
But, there's a downside, in that W10 now insists on a Cortana pop-up
every few minutes and also miniaturises your screen, and it is no wonder
that comments on the Internet proscribe W10 as a virus in itself!
Happy Days!
I suggest reading the tutorials at: https://www.tenforums.com/
I have found them to be very helpful in regards to Win 10.
Thanks for the hint, but I'd been using W10 for over a year and had not
experienced any of these annoying funnies before. In fact, by
recovering from the disk partition I'd assumed that I'd be getting the
same version as before but it seems not so.
There's one remaining irritation; every so often my screen mutates to a
tiny version at top left and there is blurb about a timeline. Any idea
how to stop that irritation?
Nope, which is why I suggested that site. You don't have to create an
account to use the tutorials.
Well, thanks anyway.

I do wonder whether Microsoft is intending to commit suicide by driving
users into the arms of other OSs such as Linux or Android.

Pissing off your customers is not the way to longevity.
Charlie Gibbs
2020-08-12 21:24:18 UTC
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Permalink
Post by gareth evans
I do wonder whether Microsoft is intending to commit suicide by driving
users into the arms of other OSs such as Linux or Android.
Pissing off your customers is not the way to longevity.
Unless you're a monopoly.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <***@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
Peter Flass
2020-08-12 21:38:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by gareth evans
I do wonder whether Microsoft is intending to commit suicide by driving
users into the arms of other OSs such as Linux or Android.
Pissing off your customers is not the way to longevity.
Unless you're a monopoly.
But they’re not, any more. Linux can handle 80-90% of all user
requirements, and 100% for typical users. I use either this iPad or my
Linux box for everything, and I can’t recall the last time I felt the need
to use windows.
--
Pete
J. Clarke
2020-08-12 22:39:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:38:28 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by gareth evans
I do wonder whether Microsoft is intending to commit suicide by driving
users into the arms of other OSs such as Linux or Android.
Pissing off your customers is not the way to longevity.
Unless you're a monopoly.
But they’re not, any more. Linux can handle 80-90% of all user
requirements, and 100% for typical users. I use either this iPad or my
Linux box for everything, and I can’t recall the last time I felt the need
to use windows.
Can it handle 100 percent of corporate requirements though?
Dan Espen
2020-08-12 22:58:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:38:28 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by gareth evans
I do wonder whether Microsoft is intending to commit suicide by driving
users into the arms of other OSs such as Linux or Android.
Pissing off your customers is not the way to longevity.
Unless you're a monopoly.
But they’re not, any more. Linux can handle 80-90% of all user
requirements, and 100% for typical users. I use either this iPad or my
Linux box for everything, and I can’t recall the last time I felt the need
to use windows.
Can it handle 100 percent of corporate requirements though?
It mostly can, but of course most places, require MSFT.
My last employer allowed Linux but the management I had to deal with
didn't want to hear about it.

The OP asked about "user requirements".
--
Dan Espen
Peter Flass
2020-08-13 00:35:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:38:28 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by gareth evans
I do wonder whether Microsoft is intending to commit suicide by driving
users into the arms of other OSs such as Linux or Android.
Pissing off your customers is not the way to longevity.
Unless you're a monopoly.
But they’re not, any more. Linux can handle 80-90% of all user
requirements, and 100% for typical users. I use either this iPad or my
Linux box for everything, and I can’t recall the last time I felt the need
to use windows.
Can it handle 100 percent of corporate requirements though?
That’ why I said 80-90%. Some places have custom apps that depend on some
windows features - like the APL interface we’ve discussed. Sure they could
be rewritten, but it would probably be pricy. OTOH, you could always keep a
legacy windows box or two around for those things and use Linux for the
rest. Heck, you could probably run windows in a VM on Linux. Isn’t MSFT
developing something that lets you run windows or windows apps on Linux?

I would think moving to Linux would save lots of money, although a company
would still want to pay for support.
--
Pete
J. Clarke
2020-08-13 02:23:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:35:54 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:38:28 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by gareth evans
I do wonder whether Microsoft is intending to commit suicide by driving
users into the arms of other OSs such as Linux or Android.
Pissing off your customers is not the way to longevity.
Unless you're a monopoly.
But they’re not, any more. Linux can handle 80-90% of all user
requirements, and 100% for typical users. I use either this iPad or my
Linux box for everything, and I can’t recall the last time I felt the need
to use windows.
Can it handle 100 percent of corporate requirements though?
That’ why I said 80-90%. Some places have custom apps that depend on some
windows features - like the APL interface we’ve discussed. Sure they could
be rewritten, but it would probably be pricy. OTOH, you could always keep a
legacy windows box or two around for those things and use Linux for the
rest. Heck, you could probably run windows in a VM on Linux. Isn’t MSFT
developing something that lets you run windows or windows apps on Linux?
I would think moving to Linux would save lots of money, although a company
would still want to pay for support.
Just for openers how long will it take and what will it cost to
retrain thousands of users on Linux and Office 365?
J. Clarke
2020-08-13 03:08:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 22:23:42 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:35:54 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:38:28 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by gareth evans
I do wonder whether Microsoft is intending to commit suicide by driving
users into the arms of other OSs such as Linux or Android.
Pissing off your customers is not the way to longevity.
Unless you're a monopoly.
But they’re not, any more. Linux can handle 80-90% of all user
requirements, and 100% for typical users. I use either this iPad or my
Linux box for everything, and I can’t recall the last time I felt the need
to use windows.
Can it handle 100 percent of corporate requirements though?
That’ why I said 80-90%. Some places have custom apps that depend on some
windows features - like the APL interface we’ve discussed. Sure they could
be rewritten, but it would probably be pricy. OTOH, you could always keep a
legacy windows box or two around for those things and use Linux for the
rest. Heck, you could probably run windows in a VM on Linux. Isn’t MSFT
developing something that lets you run windows or windows apps on Linux?
I would think moving to Linux would save lots of money, although a company
would still want to pay for support.
Just for openers how long will it take and what will it cost to
retrain thousands of users on Linux and Office 365?
Been a long day--that should have been Linux and OpenOffice.

I looked at scripting in OpenOffice--it's very limited.
Peter Flass
2020-08-13 16:53:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 22:23:42 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:35:54 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:38:28 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by gareth evans
I do wonder whether Microsoft is intending to commit suicide by driving
users into the arms of other OSs such as Linux or Android.
Pissing off your customers is not the way to longevity.
Unless you're a monopoly.
But they’re not, any more. Linux can handle 80-90% of all user
requirements, and 100% for typical users. I use either this iPad or my
Linux box for everything, and I can’t recall the last time I felt the need
to use windows.
Can it handle 100 percent of corporate requirements though?
That’ why I said 80-90%. Some places have custom apps that depend on some
windows features - like the APL interface we’ve discussed. Sure they could
be rewritten, but it would probably be pricy. OTOH, you could always keep a
legacy windows box or two around for those things and use Linux for the
rest. Heck, you could probably run windows in a VM on Linux. Isn’t MSFT
developing something that lets you run windows or windows apps on Linux?
I would think moving to Linux would save lots of money, although a company
would still want to pay for support.
Just for openers how long will it take and what will it cost to
retrain thousands of users on Linux and Office 365?
Been a long day--that should have been Linux and OpenOffice.
I looked at scripting in OpenOffice--it's very limited.
I don’t know. I don’t do much scripting.
--
Pete
J. Clarke
2020-08-13 22:54:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 09:53:57 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 22:23:42 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:35:54 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:38:28 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by gareth evans
I do wonder whether Microsoft is intending to commit suicide by driving
users into the arms of other OSs such as Linux or Android.
Pissing off your customers is not the way to longevity.
Unless you're a monopoly.
But they’re not, any more. Linux can handle 80-90% of all user
requirements, and 100% for typical users. I use either this iPad or my
Linux box for everything, and I can’t recall the last time I felt the need
to use windows.
Can it handle 100 percent of corporate requirements though?
That’ why I said 80-90%. Some places have custom apps that depend on some
windows features - like the APL interface we’ve discussed. Sure they could
be rewritten, but it would probably be pricy. OTOH, you could always keep a
legacy windows box or two around for those things and use Linux for the
rest. Heck, you could probably run windows in a VM on Linux. Isn’t MSFT
developing something that lets you run windows or windows apps on Linux?
I would think moving to Linux would save lots of money, although a company
would still want to pay for support.
Just for openers how long will it take and what will it cost to
retrain thousands of users on Linux and Office 365?
Been a long day--that should have been Linux and OpenOffice.
I looked at scripting in OpenOffice--it's very limited.
I don’t know. I don’t do much scripting.
Automate the boring stuff. And it's all boring stuff.
Dan Espen
2020-08-13 03:54:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:35:54 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:38:28 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by gareth evans
I do wonder whether Microsoft is intending to commit suicide by driving
users into the arms of other OSs such as Linux or Android.
Pissing off your customers is not the way to longevity.
Unless you're a monopoly.
But they’re not, any more. Linux can handle 80-90% of all user
requirements, and 100% for typical users. I use either this iPad or my
Linux box for everything, and I can’t recall the last time I felt the need
to use windows.
Can it handle 100 percent of corporate requirements though?
That’ why I said 80-90%. Some places have custom apps that depend on some
windows features - like the APL interface we’ve discussed. Sure they could
be rewritten, but it would probably be pricy. OTOH, you could always keep a
legacy windows box or two around for those things and use Linux for the
rest. Heck, you could probably run windows in a VM on Linux. Isn’t MSFT
developing something that lets you run windows or windows apps on Linux?
I would think moving to Linux would save lots of money, although a company
would still want to pay for support.
Just for openers how long will it take and what will it cost to
retrain thousands of users on Linux and Office 365?
No time at all.
Most users can't tell the difference.
I just read an article about how to make Linux act pretty much like W10.
Okay, here it is:

https://kevq.uk/how-to-make-ubuntu-work-like-windows-10/

I've had Windows users set down at my Linux desktop and just start
typing away without noticing anything odd. Even though I'm running
Fvwm with my own highly configured environment.

As for Office 365:

Can you use Office 365 on Linux?
Microsoft has ported its first ever Office 365 app to Linux and it chose
Teams to be the one. While still in public preview, Linux users
interested in giving it a go should go here. According to a blog post by
Microsoft's Marissa Salazar, the Linux port will support all of the core
capabilities of the app.
--
Dan Espen
J. Clarke
2020-08-13 04:07:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:35:54 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:38:28 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by gareth evans
I do wonder whether Microsoft is intending to commit suicide by driving
users into the arms of other OSs such as Linux or Android.
Pissing off your customers is not the way to longevity.
Unless you're a monopoly.
But they’re not, any more. Linux can handle 80-90% of all user
requirements, and 100% for typical users. I use either this iPad or my
Linux box for everything, and I can’t recall the last time I felt the need
to use windows.
Can it handle 100 percent of corporate requirements though?
That’ why I said 80-90%. Some places have custom apps that depend on some
windows features - like the APL interface we’ve discussed. Sure they could
be rewritten, but it would probably be pricy. OTOH, you could always keep a
legacy windows box or two around for those things and use Linux for the
rest. Heck, you could probably run windows in a VM on Linux. Isn’t MSFT
developing something that lets you run windows or windows apps on Linux?
I would think moving to Linux would save lots of money, although a company
would still want to pay for support.
Just for openers how long will it take and what will it cost to
retrain thousands of users on Linux and Office 365?
No time at all.
Most users can't tell the difference.
Right. Sure they can't. And I've got a nice bridge . . .

Now do you have actual research showing that x corporation whose user
community consisted of actuaries and claims adjusters and others who
have no interest in operating systems was able to retrain everyone at
no charge and with no disruption?

Or is that just your opinion?
Post by Dan Espen
I just read an article about how to make Linux act pretty much like W10.
https://kevq.uk/how-to-make-ubuntu-work-like-windows-10/
I've had Windows users set down at my Linux desktop and just start
typing away without noticing anything odd. Even though I'm running
Fvwm with my own highly configured environment.
Typing away doing what?
Post by Dan Espen
Can you use Office 365 on Linux?
Microsoft has ported its first ever Office 365 app to Linux and it chose
Teams to be the one. While still in public preview, Linux users
interested in giving it a go should go here. According to a blog post by
Microsoft's Marissa Salazar, the Linux port will support all of the core
capabilities of the app.
I meant OpenOffice.
Carlos E.R.
2020-08-13 11:57:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:35:54 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:38:28 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by gareth evans
I do wonder whether Microsoft is intending to commit suicide by driving
users into the arms of other OSs such as Linux or Android.
Pissing off your customers is not the way to longevity.
Unless you're a monopoly.
But they’re not, any more. Linux can handle 80-90% of all user
requirements, and 100% for typical users. I use either this iPad or my
Linux box for everything, and I can’t recall the last time I felt the need
to use windows.
Can it handle 100 percent of corporate requirements though?
That’ why I said 80-90%. Some places have custom apps that depend on some
windows features - like the APL interface we’ve discussed. Sure they could
be rewritten, but it would probably be pricy. OTOH, you could always keep a
legacy windows box or two around for those things and use Linux for the
rest. Heck, you could probably run windows in a VM on Linux. Isn’t MSFT
developing something that lets you run windows or windows apps on Linux?
I would think moving to Linux would save lots of money, although a company
would still want to pay for support.
Just for openers how long will it take and what will it cost to
retrain thousands of users on Linux and Office 365?
No time at all.
Most users can't tell the difference.
Right. Sure they can't. And I've got a nice bridge . . .
Well, I had visitors who asked me to use my computer to see their email,
and I silently handed over my Linux laptop. They didn't even notice :-D

They saw the firefox icon, clicked on it, opened gmail, and go. Same
thing :-D

It depends on what they have to do at the computer, and what support
they get. And of course, the attitude of the users toward "change".

The problem is not "Linux", it is familiar applications. There are
companies that want to do their things on Linux and they do, because
they want to. I know companies that have not touched a Windows computer
in decades. It is possible to do it.

Now, if you need to use some specific software which only exists in
Windows, they you are stuck.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Peter Flass
2020-08-13 16:54:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:35:54 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:38:28 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by gareth evans
I do wonder whether Microsoft is intending to commit suicide by driving
users into the arms of other OSs such as Linux or Android.
Pissing off your customers is not the way to longevity.
Unless you're a monopoly.
But they’re not, any more. Linux can handle 80-90% of all user
requirements, and 100% for typical users. I use either this iPad or my
Linux box for everything, and I can’t recall the last time I felt the need
to use windows.
Can it handle 100 percent of corporate requirements though?
That’ why I said 80-90%. Some places have custom apps that depend on some
windows features - like the APL interface we’ve discussed. Sure they could
be rewritten, but it would probably be pricy. OTOH, you could always keep a
legacy windows box or two around for those things and use Linux for the
rest. Heck, you could probably run windows in a VM on Linux. Isn’t MSFT
developing something that lets you run windows or windows apps on Linux?
I would think moving to Linux would save lots of money, although a company
would still want to pay for support.
Just for openers how long will it take and what will it cost to
retrain thousands of users on Linux and Office 365?
No time at all.
Most users can't tell the difference.
Right. Sure they can't. And I've got a nice bridge . . .
Well, I had visitors who asked me to use my computer to see their email,
and I silently handed over my Linux laptop. They didn't even notice :-D
They saw the firefox icon, clicked on it, opened gmail, and go. Same
thing :-D
It depends on what they have to do at the computer, and what support
they get. And of course, the attitude of the users toward "change".
It seems to me that the people who would need the most retraining are the
support people. They’re locked into the microsoft way of doing things.
Post by Carlos E.R.
The problem is not "Linux", it is familiar applications. There are
companies that want to do their things on Linux and they do, because
they want to. I know companies that have not touched a Windows computer
in decades. It is possible to do it.
Now, if you need to use some specific software which only exists in
Windows, they you are stuck.
Unfortunately. Not the problem it used to be, but it still may be a
problem.
--
Pete
Carlos E.R.
2020-08-13 18:38:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:35:54 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:38:28 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by gareth evans
I do wonder whether Microsoft is intending to commit suicide by driving
users into the arms of other OSs such as Linux or Android.
Pissing off your customers is not the way to longevity.
Unless you're a monopoly.
But they’re not, any more. Linux can handle 80-90% of all user
requirements, and 100% for typical users. I use either this iPad or my
Linux box for everything, and I can’t recall the last time I felt the need
to use windows.
Can it handle 100 percent of corporate requirements though?
That’ why I said 80-90%. Some places have custom apps that depend on some
windows features - like the APL interface we’ve discussed. Sure they could
be rewritten, but it would probably be pricy. OTOH, you could always keep a
legacy windows box or two around for those things and use Linux for the
rest. Heck, you could probably run windows in a VM on Linux. Isn’t MSFT
developing something that lets you run windows or windows apps on Linux?
I would think moving to Linux would save lots of money, although a company
would still want to pay for support.
Just for openers how long will it take and what will it cost to
retrain thousands of users on Linux and Office 365?
No time at all.
Most users can't tell the difference.
Right. Sure they can't. And I've got a nice bridge . . .
Well, I had visitors who asked me to use my computer to see their email,
and I silently handed over my Linux laptop. They didn't even notice :-D
They saw the firefox icon, clicked on it, opened gmail, and go. Same
thing :-D
It depends on what they have to do at the computer, and what support
they get. And of course, the attitude of the users toward "change".
It seems to me that the people who would need the most retraining are the
support people. They’re locked into the microsoft way of doing things.
Yes, you have a point there.
Although many know both systems.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Peter Flass
2020-08-13 16:53:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:35:54 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:38:28 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by gareth evans
I do wonder whether Microsoft is intending to commit suicide by driving
users into the arms of other OSs such as Linux or Android.
Pissing off your customers is not the way to longevity.
Unless you're a monopoly.
But they’re not, any more. Linux can handle 80-90% of all user
requirements, and 100% for typical users. I use either this iPad or my
Linux box for everything, and I can’t recall the last time I felt the need
to use windows.
Can it handle 100 percent of corporate requirements though?
That’ why I said 80-90%. Some places have custom apps that depend on some
windows features - like the APL interface we’ve discussed. Sure they could
be rewritten, but it would probably be pricy. OTOH, you could always keep a
legacy windows box or two around for those things and use Linux for the
rest. Heck, you could probably run windows in a VM on Linux. Isn’t MSFT
developing something that lets you run windows or windows apps on Linux?
I would think moving to Linux would save lots of money, although a company
would still want to pay for support.
Just for openers how long will it take and what will it cost to
retrain thousands of users on Linux and Office 365?
No time at all.
Most users can't tell the difference.
I just read an article about how to make Linux act pretty much like W10.
https://kevq.uk/how-to-make-ubuntu-work-like-windows-10/
Windows XP is a great improvement over its successors. I never could stand
anything after that.
--
Pete
Dan Espen
2020-08-13 17:31:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:35:54 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:38:28 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by gareth evans
I do wonder whether Microsoft is intending to commit suicide by driving
users into the arms of other OSs such as Linux or Android.
Pissing off your customers is not the way to longevity.
Unless you're a monopoly.
But they’re not, any more. Linux can handle 80-90% of all user
requirements, and 100% for typical users. I use either this iPad or my
Linux box for everything, and I can’t recall the last time I felt the need
to use windows.
Can it handle 100 percent of corporate requirements though?
That’ why I said 80-90%. Some places have custom apps that depend on some
windows features - like the APL interface we’ve discussed. Sure they could
be rewritten, but it would probably be pricy. OTOH, you could always keep a
legacy windows box or two around for those things and use Linux for the
rest. Heck, you could probably run windows in a VM on Linux. Isn’t MSFT
developing something that lets you run windows or windows apps on Linux?
I would think moving to Linux would save lots of money, although a company
would still want to pay for support.
Just for openers how long will it take and what will it cost to
retrain thousands of users on Linux and Office 365?
No time at all.
Most users can't tell the difference.
I just read an article about how to make Linux act pretty much like W10.
https://kevq.uk/how-to-make-ubuntu-work-like-windows-10/
Windows XP is a great improvement over its successors. I never could stand
anything after that.
I suppose but the tinkertoy interface made me laugh.
Just looked like the whole appearance was designed for children
especially compared to NT.
--
Dan Espen
JimP
2020-08-13 20:28:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:35:54 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:38:28 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by gareth evans
I do wonder whether Microsoft is intending to commit suicide by driving
users into the arms of other OSs such as Linux or Android.
Pissing off your customers is not the way to longevity.
Unless you're a monopoly.
But they’re not, any more. Linux can handle 80-90% of all user
requirements, and 100% for typical users. I use either this iPad or my
Linux box for everything, and I can’t recall the last time I felt the need
to use windows.
Can it handle 100 percent of corporate requirements though?
That’ why I said 80-90%. Some places have custom apps that depend on some
windows features - like the APL interface we’ve discussed. Sure they could
be rewritten, but it would probably be pricy. OTOH, you could always keep a
legacy windows box or two around for those things and use Linux for the
rest. Heck, you could probably run windows in a VM on Linux. Isn’t MSFT
developing something that lets you run windows or windows apps on Linux?
I would think moving to Linux would save lots of money, although a company
would still want to pay for support.
Just for openers how long will it take and what will it cost to
retrain thousands of users on Linux and Office 365?
No time at all.
Most users can't tell the difference.
I just read an article about how to make Linux act pretty much like W10.
https://kevq.uk/how-to-make-ubuntu-work-like-windows-10/
Windows XP is a great improvement over its successors. I never could stand
anything after that.
I suppose but the tinkertoy interface made me laugh.
Just looked like the whole appearance was designed for children
especially compared to NT.
I consider everything after XP to be nothing but a patch to XP.

Yeah, Windows 10 is a different path, but I'm not impressed by
anything after Win XP.
--
Jim
Charlie Gibbs
2020-08-13 21:05:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Peter Flass
Windows XP is a great improvement over its successors.
I've always loved that saying. :-)

And in this case, I agree 100% - which is why whenever
I have to use Windows, I bring up a copy of XP under
VirtualBox on one of my Linux machines. If something
doesn't run under XP, I'm lucky enough to not need it.
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Peter Flass
I never could stand anything after that.
I suppose but the tinkertoy interface made me laugh.
Just looked like the whole appearance was designed for children
especially compared to NT.
I refer to it as the "Fisher-Price" interface. Fortunately you can
easily restore an adult appearance by going into the Control Panel's
"Display" screen, and setting the Theme to "Windows Classic".
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <***@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-08-14 11:33:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Peter Flass
Windows XP is a great improvement over its successors.
I've always loved that saying. :-)
And in this case, I agree 100% - which is why whenever
I have to use Windows, I bring up a copy of XP under
VirtualBox on one of my Linux machines. If something
doesn't run under XP, I'm lucky enough to not need it.
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Peter Flass
I never could stand anything after that.
I suppose but the tinkertoy interface made me laugh.
Just looked like the whole appearance was designed for children
especially compared to NT.
I refer to it as the "Fisher-Price" interface. Fortunately you can
easily restore an adult appearance by going into the Control Panel's
"Display" screen, and setting the Theme to "Windows Classic".
Oh yes, none of that tosh, thank you.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter Flass
2020-08-14 00:12:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:35:54 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:38:28 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by gareth evans
I do wonder whether Microsoft is intending to commit suicide by driving
users into the arms of other OSs such as Linux or Android.
Pissing off your customers is not the way to longevity.
Unless you're a monopoly.
But they’re not, any more. Linux can handle 80-90% of all user
requirements, and 100% for typical users. I use either this iPad or my
Linux box for everything, and I can’t recall the last time I felt the need
to use windows.
Can it handle 100 percent of corporate requirements though?
That’ why I said 80-90%. Some places have custom apps that depend on some
windows features - like the APL interface we’ve discussed. Sure they could
be rewritten, but it would probably be pricy. OTOH, you could always keep a
legacy windows box or two around for those things and use Linux for the
rest. Heck, you could probably run windows in a VM on Linux. Isn’t MSFT
developing something that lets you run windows or windows apps on Linux?
I would think moving to Linux would save lots of money, although a company
would still want to pay for support.
Just for openers how long will it take and what will it cost to
retrain thousands of users on Linux and Office 365?
No time at all.
Most users can't tell the difference.
I just read an article about how to make Linux act pretty much like W10.
https://kevq.uk/how-to-make-ubuntu-work-like-windows-10/
Windows XP is a great improvement over its successors. I never could stand
anything after that.
I suppose but the tinkertoy interface made me laugh.
Just looked like the whole appearance was designed for children
especially compared to NT.
Never used NT, so I can’t comment, but the default win-10 interface is 100
times worse. Fortunately, you can disable it. I set up my wife’s win-10 to
look like XP.
--
Pete
gareth evans
2020-08-13 18:08:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Flass
Windows XP is a great improvement over its successors. I never could stand
anything after that.
+1

I have 2 XP machines here, one of which is a notepad and was
what I used to keep going at the weekend when the W10 virussed
itself.
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-08-14 11:32:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:35:54 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:38:28 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by gareth evans
I do wonder whether Microsoft is intending to commit suicide by
driving users into the arms of other OSs such as Linux or
Android.
Pissing off your customers is not the way to longevity.
Unless you're a monopoly.
But they’re not, any more. Linux can handle 80-90% of all user
requirements, and 100% for typical users. I use either this iPad
or my Linux box for everything, and I can’t recall the last
time I felt the need to use windows.
Can it handle 100 percent of corporate requirements though?
That’ why I said 80-90%. Some places have custom apps that depend
on some windows features - like the APL interface we’ve
discussed. Sure they could be rewritten, but it would probably be
pricy. OTOH, you could always keep a legacy windows box or two
around for those things and use Linux for the rest. Heck, you could
probably run windows in a VM on Linux. Isn’t MSFT developing
something that lets you run windows or windows apps on Linux?
I would think moving to Linux would save lots of money, although a
company would still want to pay for support.
Just for openers how long will it take and what will it cost to
retrain thousands of users on Linux and Office 365?
No time at all.
Most users can't tell the difference.
I just read an article about how to make Linux act pretty much like
https://kevq.uk/how-to-make-ubuntu-work-like-windows-10/
Windows XP is a great improvement over its successors. I never could
stand anything after that.
+1
This posted from a computer running XP, though moving from 98 was
probably unnecessary; I dont use this PC as as server
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Questor
2020-08-14 03:41:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:35:54 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:38:28 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by gareth evans
I do wonder whether Microsoft is intending to commit suicide by driving
users into the arms of other OSs such as Linux or Android.
Pissing off your customers is not the way to longevity.
Unless you're a monopoly.
But they're not, any more. Linux can handle 80-90% of all user
requirements, and 100% for typical users. I use either this iPad or my
Linux box for everything, and I can't recall the last time I felt the need
to use windows.
Can it handle 100 percent of corporate requirements though?
That's why I said 80-90%. Some places have custom apps that depend on some
windows features - like the APL interface we've discussed. Sure they could
be rewritten, but it would probably be pricy. OTOH, you could always keep a
legacy windows box or two around for those things and use Linux for the
rest. Heck, you could probably run windows in a VM on Linux. Isn't MSFT
developing something that lets you run windows or windows apps on Linux?
I would think moving to Linux would save lots of money, although a company
would still want to pay for support.
Just for openers how long will it take and what will it cost to
retrain thousands of users on Linux and Office 365?
No time at all.
Most users can't tell the difference.
I just read an article about how to make Linux act pretty much like W10.
https://kevq.uk/how-to-make-ubuntu-work-like-windows-10/
I've had Windows users set down at my Linux desktop and just start
typing away without noticing anything odd. Even though I'm running
Fvwm with my own highly configured environment.
Can you use Office 365 on Linux?
Microsoft has ported its first ever Office 365 app to Linux and it chose
Teams to be the one. While still in public preview, Linux users
interested in giving it a go should go here. According to a blog post by
Microsoft's Marissa Salazar, the Linux port will support all of the core
capabilities of the app.
You so funny!

In another thread you decry diversity in human language and wish for an end to
the Tower of Babel, citing, among other arguments, the need for translators.
And in this thread you make the opposite argument, supporting diversity and a
"software Tower of Babel," apparently relying on the translation of different
document formats. It seems to me the same reasoning should apply in either
case.


Apparently no one here has had extensive experience in corporate IT or doing a
lot of end-user support.

To begin with, Linux (and also Macintosh) do not have the tools necessary to
remotely support and manage hundreds or thousands of PCs and their access to
corporate network resources. While they may be subject to the same weaknesses
as other Microsoft products, at least Windows has those tools.

Also critical are programs from independent software vendors (ISV). An e-mail
client, a browser, and an office suite are not enough for many employees. Just
about every organization of sufficent size uses a handful of third-party
applications; a large company may have dozens. It simply isn't economically
feasible for most ISVs, which are often small firms serving a niche market, to
port and support versions for Linux and/or the Macintosh. They simply don't
have the customers for those platforms to generate the necessary revenue.

For one example, consider a medium-sized hospital where I worked on an IT
contract a few years back. The phone operators had a custom program to answer
the phone and another to look up phone numbers, not only for departments and
employees, but also for an ever-shifting roster of patients. The medical
records department had one application to track patient diagnosis and treatment,
and another to aid in the coding of same for insurance billing purposes. The
accounting department had general ledger software and other programs for
dealing with the insurance companies. The cafeteria used an application to plan
patient menus and keep track of their food inventory. One of the most
complicated programs was for scheduling nurses. Nurses are not generally
interchangeable. Certifications, training, years of experience, and preferred
shifts must all be taken into account. Oncology, cardiology, radiology... just
about every department had at least one application specific to their needs. A
similar situation exists in large corporations.

Even if an ISV wanted to offer a Linux version of their software, there would be
significant support issues. Which Linux distribution? What version? Which
shell, which windows manager? Some of these make a difference in the
programming, and some in being able to offer end-user support, especially
remotely. Imagine walking a novice user through editing an .rc file with vi
over the phone. Imagine having to be able to do that for any combination of
Linux distribution and shell.

There's also the training issue. Simply put, companies don't want to train
employees. If they are using Linux and OpenOffice, where will they find
qualified employees knowledgeable in that software? Saying that those programs
are "pretty much like" Windows and Office isn't good enough. Currently the
baseline in computer ability is competency with Windows and Office. Any
organization using Microsoft products is assured of a large pool of potential
employees with experience using the same.

To be clear, I am not a fan of Microsoft. I think its dangerous to be dependent
on a software monoculture, and my opinion is confirmed with every story about
virus infections, data exfiltrations, and ransomware attacks. Like most people
in alt.folklore.computers, I am technically savvy enough not to be beholden to
Microsoft products should I chose. I also recognize that that is a very small
minority of people, and that there are compelling economic reasons why most
companies are Microsoft shops.
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
2020-08-14 06:14:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 03:41:32 GMT
Post by Questor
To begin with, Linux (and also Macintosh) do not have the tools necessary
to remotely support and manage hundreds or thousands of PCs and their
access to corporate network resources. While they may be subject to the
same weaknesses as other Microsoft products, at least Windows has those
tools.
So things like puppet, salt, kubernetes etc don't exist ? They work
just as well for desktops as for server farms.

Your point about specialist software is a good one, applications
come first then you choose from among the platforms that support the
applications you need.
Post by Questor
Even if an ISV wanted to offer a Linux version of their software, there
would be significant support issues. Which Linux distribution? What
version? Which shell, which windows manager?
None of these are problems for any of the open source vendors, why
should they be problems for anyone else ?
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Niklas Karlsson
2020-08-14 06:43:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 03:41:32 GMT
Post by Questor
To begin with, Linux (and also Macintosh) do not have the tools necessary
to remotely support and manage hundreds or thousands of PCs and their
access to corporate network resources. While they may be subject to the
same weaknesses as other Microsoft products, at least Windows has those
tools.
So things like puppet, salt, kubernetes etc don't exist ? They work
just as well for desktops as for server farms.
Very good point, and I'd like to add Ansible to that list. It is IMHO
the most pleasant tool to manage configuration on remote hosts.
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Your point about specialist software is a good one, applications
come first then you choose from among the platforms that support the
applications you need.
Sure.
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Post by Questor
Even if an ISV wanted to offer a Linux version of their software, there
would be significant support issues. Which Linux distribution? What
version? Which shell, which windows manager?
None of these are problems for any of the open source vendors, why
should they be problems for anyone else ?
Makes sense.

Niklas
--
The best viewer I've found for MS-Powerpoint is "rm".
-- Roger BW
J. Clarke
2020-08-14 11:10:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Niklas Karlsson
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 03:41:32 GMT
Post by Questor
To begin with, Linux (and also Macintosh) do not have the tools necessary
to remotely support and manage hundreds or thousands of PCs and their
access to corporate network resources. While they may be subject to the
same weaknesses as other Microsoft products, at least Windows has those
tools.
So things like puppet, salt, kubernetes etc don't exist ? They work
just as well for desktops as for server farms.
Very good point, and I'd like to add Ansible to that list. It is IMHO
the most pleasant tool to manage configuration on remote hosts.
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Your point about specialist software is a good one, applications
come first then you choose from among the platforms that support the
applications you need.
Sure.
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Post by Questor
Even if an ISV wanted to offer a Linux version of their software, there
would be significant support issues. Which Linux distribution? What
version? Which shell, which windows manager?
None of these are problems for any of the open source vendors, why
should they be problems for anyone else ?
Makes sense.
What is an "open source vendor"? Open source is not "vended", it is
put on GigHub or SourceForge and whoever wants it downloads it and
beats it into submission if they want it badly enough. Most
businesses want to be in the business of selling whatever product they
make, not maintaining somebody else's code.
Carlos E.R.
2020-08-14 11:43:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Niklas Karlsson
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 03:41:32 GMT
Post by Questor
To begin with, Linux (and also Macintosh) do not have the tools necessary
to remotely support and manage hundreds or thousands of PCs and their
access to corporate network resources. While they may be subject to the
same weaknesses as other Microsoft products, at least Windows has those
tools.
So things like puppet, salt, kubernetes etc don't exist ? They work
just as well for desktops as for server farms.
Very good point, and I'd like to add Ansible to that list. It is IMHO
the most pleasant tool to manage configuration on remote hosts.
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Your point about specialist software is a good one, applications
come first then you choose from among the platforms that support the
applications you need.
Sure.
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Post by Questor
Even if an ISV wanted to offer a Linux version of their software, there
would be significant support issues. Which Linux distribution? What
version? Which shell, which windows manager?
None of these are problems for any of the open source vendors, why
should they be problems for anyone else ?
Makes sense.
What is an "open source vendor"? Open source is not "vended", it is
put on GigHub or SourceForge and whoever wants it downloads it and
beats it into submission if they want it badly enough. Most
businesses want to be in the business of selling whatever product they
make, not maintaining somebody else's code.
***@Telcontar:~> rpm -qi rpm
Name : rpm
Version : 4.14.1
Release : lp151.14.3.1
Architecture: x86_64
Install Date: 2020-04-20T12:57:08 CEST
Group : System/Packages
Size : 4793456
License : GPL-2.0-or-later
Signature : RSA/SHA256, 2020-04-13T16:15:51 CEST, Key ID b88b2fd43dbdc284
Source RPM : rpm-4.14.1-lp151.14.3.1.src.rpm
Build Date : 2020-04-13T16:15:32 CEST
Build Host : cloud126
Relocations : (not relocatable)
Packager : http://bugs.opensuse.org
Vendor : openSUSE <===========================
Summary : The RPM Package Manager
Description :
--
Cheers, Carlos.
J. Clarke
2020-08-14 11:50:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 13:43:06 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Niklas Karlsson
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 03:41:32 GMT
Post by Questor
To begin with, Linux (and also Macintosh) do not have the tools necessary
to remotely support and manage hundreds or thousands of PCs and their
access to corporate network resources. While they may be subject to the
same weaknesses as other Microsoft products, at least Windows has those
tools.
So things like puppet, salt, kubernetes etc don't exist ? They work
just as well for desktops as for server farms.
Very good point, and I'd like to add Ansible to that list. It is IMHO
the most pleasant tool to manage configuration on remote hosts.
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Your point about specialist software is a good one, applications
come first then you choose from among the platforms that support the
applications you need.
Sure.
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Post by Questor
Even if an ISV wanted to offer a Linux version of their software, there
would be significant support issues. Which Linux distribution? What
version? Which shell, which windows manager?
None of these are problems for any of the open source vendors, why
should they be problems for anyone else ?
Makes sense.
What is an "open source vendor"? Open source is not "vended", it is
put on GigHub or SourceForge and whoever wants it downloads it and
beats it into submission if they want it badly enough. Most
businesses want to be in the business of selling whatever product they
make, not maintaining somebody else's code.
Name : rpm
Version : 4.14.1
Release : lp151.14.3.1
Architecture: x86_64
Install Date: 2020-04-20T12:57:08 CEST
Group : System/Packages
Size : 4793456
License : GPL-2.0-or-later
Signature : RSA/SHA256, 2020-04-13T16:15:51 CEST, Key ID b88b2fd43dbdc284
Source RPM : rpm-4.14.1-lp151.14.3.1.src.rpm
Build Date : 2020-04-13T16:15:32 CEST
Build Host : cloud126
Relocations : (not relocatable)
Packager : http://bugs.opensuse.org
Vendor : openSUSE <===========================
Summary : The RPM Package Manager
Is that supposed to be relevant somehow?
Carlos E.R.
2020-08-14 12:06:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 13:43:06 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Niklas Karlsson
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 03:41:32 GMT
Post by Questor
To begin with, Linux (and also Macintosh) do not have the tools necessary
to remotely support and manage hundreds or thousands of PCs and their
access to corporate network resources. While they may be subject to the
same weaknesses as other Microsoft products, at least Windows has those
tools.
So things like puppet, salt, kubernetes etc don't exist ? They work
just as well for desktops as for server farms.
Very good point, and I'd like to add Ansible to that list. It is IMHO
the most pleasant tool to manage configuration on remote hosts.
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Your point about specialist software is a good one, applications
come first then you choose from among the platforms that support the
applications you need.
Sure.
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Post by Questor
Even if an ISV wanted to offer a Linux version of their software, there
would be significant support issues. Which Linux distribution? What
version? Which shell, which windows manager?
None of these are problems for any of the open source vendors, why
should they be problems for anyone else ?
Makes sense.
What is an "open source vendor"? Open source is not "vended", it is
put on GigHub or SourceForge and whoever wants it downloads it and
beats it into submission if they want it badly enough. Most
businesses want to be in the business of selling whatever product they
make, not maintaining somebody else's code.
Name : rpm
Version : 4.14.1
Release : lp151.14.3.1
Architecture: x86_64
Install Date: 2020-04-20T12:57:08 CEST
Group : System/Packages
Size : 4793456
License : GPL-2.0-or-later
Signature : RSA/SHA256, 2020-04-13T16:15:51 CEST, Key ID b88b2fd43dbdc284
Source RPM : rpm-4.14.1-lp151.14.3.1.src.rpm
Build Date : 2020-04-13T16:15:32 CEST
Build Host : cloud126
Relocations : (not relocatable)
Packager : http://bugs.opensuse.org
Vendor : openSUSE <===========================
Summary : The RPM Package Manager
Is that supposed to be relevant somehow?
You asked what is an open source vendor, and I answered to just that.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
J. Clarke
2020-08-14 17:36:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 14:06:47 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 13:43:06 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Niklas Karlsson
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 03:41:32 GMT
Post by Questor
To begin with, Linux (and also Macintosh) do not have the tools necessary
to remotely support and manage hundreds or thousands of PCs and their
access to corporate network resources. While they may be subject to the
same weaknesses as other Microsoft products, at least Windows has those
tools.
So things like puppet, salt, kubernetes etc don't exist ? They work
just as well for desktops as for server farms.
Very good point, and I'd like to add Ansible to that list. It is IMHO
the most pleasant tool to manage configuration on remote hosts.
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Your point about specialist software is a good one, applications
come first then you choose from among the platforms that support the
applications you need.
Sure.
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Post by Questor
Even if an ISV wanted to offer a Linux version of their software, there
would be significant support issues. Which Linux distribution? What
version? Which shell, which windows manager?
None of these are problems for any of the open source vendors, why
should they be problems for anyone else ?
Makes sense.
What is an "open source vendor"? Open source is not "vended", it is
put on GigHub or SourceForge and whoever wants it downloads it and
beats it into submission if they want it badly enough. Most
businesses want to be in the business of selling whatever product they
make, not maintaining somebody else's code.
Name : rpm
Version : 4.14.1
Release : lp151.14.3.1
Architecture: x86_64
Install Date: 2020-04-20T12:57:08 CEST
Group : System/Packages
Size : 4793456
License : GPL-2.0-or-later
Signature : RSA/SHA256, 2020-04-13T16:15:51 CEST, Key ID b88b2fd43dbdc284
Source RPM : rpm-4.14.1-lp151.14.3.1.src.rpm
Build Date : 2020-04-13T16:15:32 CEST
Build Host : cloud126
Relocations : (not relocatable)
Packager : http://bugs.opensuse.org
Vendor : openSUSE <===========================
Summary : The RPM Package Manager
Is that supposed to be relevant somehow?
You asked what is an open source vendor, and I answered to just that.
So how do they "vend" something that is free as in speech and free as
in beer?
Carlos E.R.
2020-08-14 17:41:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 14:06:47 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 13:43:06 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Niklas Karlsson
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 03:41:32 GMT
Post by Questor
To begin with, Linux (and also Macintosh) do not have the tools necessary
to remotely support and manage hundreds or thousands of PCs and their
access to corporate network resources. While they may be subject to the
same weaknesses as other Microsoft products, at least Windows has those
tools.
So things like puppet, salt, kubernetes etc don't exist ? They work
just as well for desktops as for server farms.
Very good point, and I'd like to add Ansible to that list. It is IMHO
the most pleasant tool to manage configuration on remote hosts.
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Your point about specialist software is a good one, applications
come first then you choose from among the platforms that support the
applications you need.
Sure.
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Post by Questor
Even if an ISV wanted to offer a Linux version of their software, there
would be significant support issues. Which Linux distribution? What
version? Which shell, which windows manager?
None of these are problems for any of the open source vendors, why
should they be problems for anyone else ?
Makes sense.
What is an "open source vendor"? Open source is not "vended", it is
put on GigHub or SourceForge and whoever wants it downloads it and
beats it into submission if they want it badly enough. Most
businesses want to be in the business of selling whatever product they
make, not maintaining somebody else's code.
Name : rpm
Version : 4.14.1
Release : lp151.14.3.1
Architecture: x86_64
Install Date: 2020-04-20T12:57:08 CEST
Group : System/Packages
Size : 4793456
License : GPL-2.0-or-later
Signature : RSA/SHA256, 2020-04-13T16:15:51 CEST, Key ID b88b2fd43dbdc284
Source RPM : rpm-4.14.1-lp151.14.3.1.src.rpm
Build Date : 2020-04-13T16:15:32 CEST
Build Host : cloud126
Relocations : (not relocatable)
Packager : http://bugs.opensuse.org
Vendor : openSUSE <===========================
Summary : The RPM Package Manager
Is that supposed to be relevant somehow?
You asked what is an open source vendor, and I answered to just that.
So how do they "vend" something that is free as in speech and free as
in beer?
See the replies of others.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Scott Lurndal
2020-08-14 18:04:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 14:06:47 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
You asked what is an open source vendor, and I answered to just that.
So how do they "vend" something that is free as in speech and free as
in beer?
It's clear to most of us. And clear as well, to the customers of Redhat.
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
2020-08-14 12:24:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 07:50:27 -0400
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 13:43:06 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Niklas Karlsson
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
None of these are problems for any of the open source
vendors, why should they be problems for anyone else ?
Makes sense.
What is an "open source vendor"? Open source is not "vended", it is
Substitute "supplier" or "creator" if you wish. But also consider
those rather large organisations behind such things as Firefox,
Open/LibreOffice, Xorg, Emacs ... Vendor seems an appropriate name and
common usage.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Carlos E.R.
Vendor : openSUSE <===========================
Summary : The RPM Package Manager
Is that supposed to be relevant somehow?
A demonstration that the term is in use. I will grant you it is not
technically correct but the meaning is clear.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Dan Espen
2020-08-14 12:31:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Niklas Karlsson
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 03:41:32 GMT
Post by Questor
To begin with, Linux (and also Macintosh) do not have the tools necessary
to remotely support and manage hundreds or thousands of PCs and their
access to corporate network resources. While they may be subject to the
same weaknesses as other Microsoft products, at least Windows has those
tools.
So things like puppet, salt, kubernetes etc don't exist ? They work
just as well for desktops as for server farms.
Very good point, and I'd like to add Ansible to that list. It is IMHO
the most pleasant tool to manage configuration on remote hosts.
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Your point about specialist software is a good one, applications
come first then you choose from among the platforms that support the
applications you need.
Sure.
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Post by Questor
Even if an ISV wanted to offer a Linux version of their software, there
would be significant support issues. Which Linux distribution? What
version? Which shell, which windows manager?
None of these are problems for any of the open source vendors, why
should they be problems for anyone else ?
Makes sense.
What is an "open source vendor"?
Not the person you responded to, but I'd guess
Redhat, Suse, any distro provider that addresses the corporate
market and provides support?
--
Dan Espen
J. Clarke
2020-08-14 17:37:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Niklas Karlsson
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 03:41:32 GMT
Post by Questor
To begin with, Linux (and also Macintosh) do not have the tools necessary
to remotely support and manage hundreds or thousands of PCs and their
access to corporate network resources. While they may be subject to the
same weaknesses as other Microsoft products, at least Windows has those
tools.
So things like puppet, salt, kubernetes etc don't exist ? They work
just as well for desktops as for server farms.
Very good point, and I'd like to add Ansible to that list. It is IMHO
the most pleasant tool to manage configuration on remote hosts.
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Your point about specialist software is a good one, applications
come first then you choose from among the platforms that support the
applications you need.
Sure.
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Post by Questor
Even if an ISV wanted to offer a Linux version of their software, there
would be significant support issues. Which Linux distribution? What
version? Which shell, which windows manager?
None of these are problems for any of the open source vendors, why
should they be problems for anyone else ?
Makes sense.
What is an "open source vendor"?
Not the person you responded to, but I'd guess
Redhat, Suse, any distro provider that addresses the corporate
market and provides support?
In other words a systems integrator.
Dan Espen
2020-08-14 19:34:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Niklas Karlsson
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 03:41:32 GMT
Post by Questor
To begin with, Linux (and also Macintosh) do not have the tools necessary
to remotely support and manage hundreds or thousands of PCs and their
access to corporate network resources. While they may be subject to the
same weaknesses as other Microsoft products, at least Windows has those
tools.
So things like puppet, salt, kubernetes etc don't exist ? They work
just as well for desktops as for server farms.
Very good point, and I'd like to add Ansible to that list. It is IMHO
the most pleasant tool to manage configuration on remote hosts.
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Your point about specialist software is a good one, applications
come first then you choose from among the platforms that support the
applications you need.
Sure.
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Post by Questor
Even if an ISV wanted to offer a Linux version of their software, there
would be significant support issues. Which Linux distribution? What
version? Which shell, which windows manager?
None of these are problems for any of the open source vendors, why
should they be problems for anyone else ?
Makes sense.
What is an "open source vendor"?
Not the person you responded to, but I'd guess
Redhat, Suse, any distro provider that addresses the corporate
market and provides support?
In other words a systems integrator.
Referencing the font of all knowledge:

What is a system integrator?

A systems integrator (or system integrator) is a person or company that
specializes in bringing together component subsystems into a whole and
ensuring that those subsystems function together, a practice known as
system integration. They also solve problems of automation.

vs.

An "open source vendor" is one that develops, contributes to, and
distributes open source licensed products, which are integral to
driving its revenue.

Looks like both terms apply, however the original term seems to me
to be a bit more precise.

Glad to help. :)
--
Dan Espen
Scott Lurndal
2020-08-14 16:18:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Niklas Karlsson
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 03:41:32 GMT
Post by Questor
To begin with, Linux (and also Macintosh) do not have the tools necessary
to remotely support and manage hundreds or thousands of PCs and their
access to corporate network resources. While they may be subject to the
same weaknesses as other Microsoft products, at least Windows has those
tools.
So things like puppet, salt, kubernetes etc don't exist ? They work
just as well for desktops as for server farms.
Very good point, and I'd like to add Ansible to that list. It is IMHO
the most pleasant tool to manage configuration on remote hosts.
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Your point about specialist software is a good one, applications
come first then you choose from among the platforms that support the
applications you need.
Sure.
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Post by Questor
Even if an ISV wanted to offer a Linux version of their software, there
would be significant support issues. Which Linux distribution? What
version? Which shell, which windows manager?
None of these are problems for any of the open source vendors, why
should they be problems for anyone else ?
Makes sense.
What is an "open source vendor"?
How can you have spent decades in the computer business and
not know that RedHat (now IBM), SUSE, Ubuntu and other
open source vendors exist is beyond belief.
Peter Flass
2020-08-14 14:13:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 03:41:32 GMT
Post by Questor
To begin with, Linux (and also Macintosh) do not have the tools necessary
to remotely support and manage hundreds or thousands of PCs and their
access to corporate network resources. While they may be subject to the
same weaknesses as other Microsoft products, at least Windows has those
tools.
So things like puppet, salt, kubernetes etc don't exist ? They work
just as well for desktops as for server farms.
Your point about specialist software is a good one, applications
come first then you choose from among the platforms that support the
applications you need.
Post by Questor
Even if an ISV wanted to offer a Linux version of their software, there
would be significant support issues. Which Linux distribution? What
version? Which shell, which windows manager?
None of these are problems for any of the open source vendors, why
should they be problems for anyone else ?
I’ve had lots of problems with open source. If there’s not a binary for my
distro, and I use Ubuntu with, presumably, among the most precompiled
binaries, I have to try and compile it myself. This often gets me into
dependency hell where I need a ton of stuff I son’t have installed to build
the thing. Many times I just give up.
--
Pete
Carlos E.R.
2020-08-14 17:47:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 03:41:32 GMT
Post by Questor
To begin with, Linux (and also Macintosh) do not have the tools necessary
to remotely support and manage hundreds or thousands of PCs and their
access to corporate network resources. While they may be subject to the
same weaknesses as other Microsoft products, at least Windows has those
tools.
So things like puppet, salt, kubernetes etc don't exist ? They work
just as well for desktops as for server farms.
Your point about specialist software is a good one, applications
come first then you choose from among the platforms that support the
applications you need.
Post by Questor
Even if an ISV wanted to offer a Linux version of their software, there
would be significant support issues. Which Linux distribution? What
version? Which shell, which windows manager?
None of these are problems for any of the open source vendors, why
should they be problems for anyone else ?
I’ve had lots of problems with open source. If there’s not a binary for my
distro, and I use Ubuntu with, presumably, among the most precompiled
binaries, I have to try and compile it myself. This often gets me into
dependency hell where I need a ton of stuff I son’t have installed to build
the thing. Many times I just give up.
Most of the time since about a decade I find the code I need already
compiled for the distribution I use. No problems. I don't remember the
last thing I had to compile myself.

Looking, I compiled ntpstat-master on January. Before that, it seems I
compiled "egctl" on May 2018.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Dan Espen
2020-08-14 09:57:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Questor
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:35:54 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:38:28 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by gareth evans
I do wonder whether Microsoft is intending to commit suicide by driving
users into the arms of other OSs such as Linux or Android.
Pissing off your customers is not the way to longevity.
Unless you're a monopoly.
But they're not, any more. Linux can handle 80-90% of all user
requirements, and 100% for typical users. I use either this iPad or my
Linux box for everything, and I can't recall the last time I felt the need
to use windows.
Can it handle 100 percent of corporate requirements though?
That's why I said 80-90%. Some places have custom apps that depend on some
windows features - like the APL interface we've discussed. Sure they could
be rewritten, but it would probably be pricy. OTOH, you could always keep a
legacy windows box or two around for those things and use Linux for the
rest. Heck, you could probably run windows in a VM on Linux. Isn't MSFT
developing something that lets you run windows or windows apps on Linux?
I would think moving to Linux would save lots of money, although a company
would still want to pay for support.
Just for openers how long will it take and what will it cost to
retrain thousands of users on Linux and Office 365?
No time at all.
Most users can't tell the difference.
I just read an article about how to make Linux act pretty much like W10.
https://kevq.uk/how-to-make-ubuntu-work-like-windows-10/
I've had Windows users set down at my Linux desktop and just start
typing away without noticing anything odd. Even though I'm running
Fvwm with my own highly configured environment.
Can you use Office 365 on Linux?
Microsoft has ported its first ever Office 365 app to Linux and it chose
Teams to be the one. While still in public preview, Linux users
interested in giving it a go should go here. According to a blog post by
Microsoft's Marissa Salazar, the Linux port will support all of the core
capabilities of the app.
You so funny!
Great! Being funny is a good thing.
Post by Questor
In another thread you decry diversity in human language and wish for an end to
the Tower of Babel, citing, among other arguments, the need for translators.
And in this thread you make the opposite argument, supporting diversity and a
"software Tower of Babel," apparently relying on the translation of different
document formats. It seems to me the same reasoning should apply in either
case.
I'm a bit confused here, when did translating document formats come
into play? Is that when someone started talking about converting word
documents to PDF? I haven't made any comments in that thread.
I know Word used to have issues converting to PDF but that's been fixed.

I think the issue you're raising here is a diversity of OS's.
In this case Linux vs. Windows and Office 365 vs. Office 365.

My opinion was that Windows and Linux can be pretty much the same.
The article I cited shows how to make workflow on Linux and Windows
be the same. I think that's less diversity.

My Office 365 point was that MSFT has Office 365 stuff running on Linux.
I don't know Office 365 but isn't that a browser based office package?
Why doesn't all of it run on Linux?

A quick search shows:

Operating system: Windows, macOS, Android, iOS

Well, if Android is supported, isn't that already a version of Linux?
Not sure why Linux isn't listed. Maybe there are some client side
binaries? But based on what I quoted, MSFT is already getting Teams to
run on Linux.
Post by Questor
Apparently no one here has had extensive experience in corporate IT or doing a
lot of end-user support.
Never had the nightmare experience. I mostly designed and coded.
I did spend a year or so supporting about 100 developers but that wasn't
linux or windows. That was unix guys moved to MVS.
Post by Questor
To begin with, Linux (and also Macintosh) do not have the tools necessary to
remotely support and manage hundreds or thousands of PCs and their access to
corporate network resources. While they may be subject to the same weaknesses
as other Microsoft products, at least Windows has those tools.
That statement just seems wrong. For many years I worked with large
amounts of developers using Sun Workstations. Our support group could
push out all kinds of stuff by hitting a button. In a corporate
environment Linux support would probably be Redhat. I think they're
loaded with support automation.
Post by Questor
Also critical are programs from independent software vendors (ISV). An e-mail
client, a browser, and an office suite are not enough for many employees. Just
about every organization of sufficent size uses a handful of third-party
applications; a large company may have dozens. It simply isn't economically
feasible for most ISVs, which are often small firms serving a niche market, to
port and support versions for Linux and/or the Macintosh. They simply don't
have the customers for those platforms to generate the necessary revenue.
It's pretty neat that so many of the tool kits being used today are
platform agnostic, like Java and QT. But your point is correct.
Not really related to my point about diversity, but sure there are
vendor products that are Windows only.
Post by Questor
For one example, consider a medium-sized hospital where I worked on an IT
contract a few years back. The phone operators had a custom program to answer
the phone and another to look up phone numbers, not only for departments and
employees, but also for an ever-shifting roster of patients. The medical
records department had one application to track patient diagnosis and treatment,
and another to aid in the coding of same for insurance billing purposes. The
accounting department had general ledger software and other programs for
dealing with the insurance companies. The cafeteria used an application to plan
patient menus and keep track of their food inventory. One of the most
complicated programs was for scheduling nurses. Nurses are not generally
interchangeable. Certifications, training, years of experience, and preferred
shifts must all be taken into account. Oncology, cardiology, radiology... just
about every department had at least one application specific to their needs. A
similar situation exists in large corporations.
Even if an ISV wanted to offer a Linux version of their software, there would be
significant support issues. Which Linux distribution? What version? Which
shell, which windows manager? Some of these make a difference in the
programming, and some in being able to offer end-user support, especially
remotely. Imagine walking a novice user through editing an .rc file with vi
over the phone. Imagine having to be able to do that for any combination of
Linux distribution and shell.
If this novice has vi on his machine doesn't he already know how to use
it?

Here's an interesting alternative:

People also ask

Does Linux have notepad?
The good news is that Notepad++ is now (unofficially) available as a
Snap package for Linux users.
Post by Questor
There's also the training issue. Simply put, companies don't want to train
employees. If they are using Linux and OpenOffice, where will they find
qualified employees knowledgeable in that software? Saying that those programs
are "pretty much like" Windows and Office isn't good enough. Currently the
baseline in computer ability is competency with Windows and Office. Any
organization using Microsoft products is assured of a large pool of potential
employees with experience using the same.
Back to training time? I think I'm headed down that path in a different direction.
Post by Questor
To be clear, I am not a fan of Microsoft. I think its dangerous to be dependent
on a software monoculture, and my opinion is confirmed with every story about
virus infections, data exfiltrations, and ransomware attacks. Like most people
in alt.folklore.computers, I am technically savvy enough not to be beholden to
Microsoft products should I chose. I also recognize that that is a very small
minority of people, and that there are compelling economic reasons why most
companies are Microsoft shops.
Agree.

To reiterate, diversity bad. Being funny good.
--
Dan Espen
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
2020-08-14 10:20:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 05:57:59 -0400
Post by Dan Espen
To reiterate, diversity bad. Being funny good.
However intolerance of diversity is it's own problem (and not just
socially). Diversity is guaranteed to happen over time even if you
enthusiastically embrace single vendor lock-in - think of the Mac users who
had to cope with 68K -> Power -> Intel. Windows 10 is not much like XP at
any level. Z-series isn't all that much like a 370 (although it does better
at pretending than the others by all accounts). All the CP/M houses had to
adapt. Transitions happen and making a sudden cut-over is impractical at
almost any scale.

Likewise the issue of there being platform specific software that
is needed - what do you do if the full set of software you need requires
multiple platforms other than cope with the necessary diversity. OK one
option is to take inferior options for some of the software - that's not
always possible or acceptable though.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
J. Clarke
2020-08-14 11:37:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Questor
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:35:54 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:38:28 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by gareth evans
I do wonder whether Microsoft is intending to commit suicide by driving
users into the arms of other OSs such as Linux or Android.
Pissing off your customers is not the way to longevity.
Unless you're a monopoly.
But they're not, any more. Linux can handle 80-90% of all user
requirements, and 100% for typical users. I use either this iPad or my
Linux box for everything, and I can't recall the last time I felt the need
to use windows.
Can it handle 100 percent of corporate requirements though?
That's why I said 80-90%. Some places have custom apps that depend on some
windows features - like the APL interface we've discussed. Sure they could
be rewritten, but it would probably be pricy. OTOH, you could always keep a
legacy windows box or two around for those things and use Linux for the
rest. Heck, you could probably run windows in a VM on Linux. Isn't MSFT
developing something that lets you run windows or windows apps on Linux?
I would think moving to Linux would save lots of money, although a company
would still want to pay for support.
Just for openers how long will it take and what will it cost to
retrain thousands of users on Linux and Office 365?
No time at all.
Most users can't tell the difference.
I just read an article about how to make Linux act pretty much like W10.
https://kevq.uk/how-to-make-ubuntu-work-like-windows-10/
I've had Windows users set down at my Linux desktop and just start
typing away without noticing anything odd. Even though I'm running
Fvwm with my own highly configured environment.
Can you use Office 365 on Linux?
Microsoft has ported its first ever Office 365 app to Linux and it chose
Teams to be the one. While still in public preview, Linux users
interested in giving it a go should go here. According to a blog post by
Microsoft's Marissa Salazar, the Linux port will support all of the core
capabilities of the app.
You so funny!
Great! Being funny is a good thing.
Post by Questor
In another thread you decry diversity in human language and wish for an end to
the Tower of Babel, citing, among other arguments, the need for translators.
And in this thread you make the opposite argument, supporting diversity and a
"software Tower of Babel," apparently relying on the translation of different
document formats. It seems to me the same reasoning should apply in either
case.
I'm a bit confused here, when did translating document formats come
into play? Is that when someone started talking about converting word
documents to PDF? I haven't made any comments in that thread.
I know Word used to have issues converting to PDF but that's been fixed.
I think the issue you're raising here is a diversity of OS's.
In this case Linux vs. Windows and Office 365 vs. Office 365.
My opinion was that Windows and Linux can be pretty much the same.
The article I cited shows how to make workflow on Linux and Windows
be the same. I think that's less diversity.
My Office 365 point was that MSFT has Office 365 stuff running on Linux.
I don't know Office 365 but isn't that a browser based office package?
Why doesn't all of it run on Linux?
Office 365 is an update to Office 2016. While there are browser based
tools that are part of the ecosystem they are not fully
functional--they can read, display, and perform limited edits. The
main tool set runs natively on PC or Mac. When used to access
documents on the Microsoft cloud additional features are
supported--multiuser access for example--several people can have the
same Word document open and make edits simultaneously, and documents
can be autosaved after every change with a version history.
Post by Dan Espen
Operating system: Windows, macOS, Android, iOS
Well, if Android is supported, isn't that already a version of Linux?
Not sure why Linux isn't listed. Maybe there are some client side
binaries? But based on what I quoted, MSFT is already getting Teams to
run on Linux.
Android is Linux like OS/X is BSD.

And I was not aware that there was a Linux port of Teams. Interesting.
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Questor
Apparently no one here has had extensive experience in corporate IT or doing a
lot of end-user support.
Never had the nightmare experience. I mostly designed and coded.
I did spend a year or so supporting about 100 developers but that wasn't
linux or windows. That was unix guys moved to MVS.
OK, now imagine that experience only it's 100,000.
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Questor
To begin with, Linux (and also Macintosh) do not have the tools necessary to
remotely support and manage hundreds or thousands of PCs and their access to
corporate network resources. While they may be subject to the same weaknesses
as other Microsoft products, at least Windows has those tools.
That statement just seems wrong. For many years I worked with large
amounts of developers using Sun Workstations. Our support group could
push out all kinds of stuff by hitting a button. In a corporate
environment Linux support would probably be Redhat. I think they're
loaded with support automation.
Post by Questor
Also critical are programs from independent software vendors (ISV). An e-mail
client, a browser, and an office suite are not enough for many employees. Just
about every organization of sufficent size uses a handful of third-party
applications; a large company may have dozens. It simply isn't economically
feasible for most ISVs, which are often small firms serving a niche market, to
port and support versions for Linux and/or the Macintosh. They simply don't
have the customers for those platforms to generate the necessary revenue.
It's pretty neat that so many of the tool kits being used today are
platform agnostic, like Java and QT. But your point is correct.
Not really related to my point about diversity, but sure there are
vendor products that are Windows only.
Post by Questor
For one example, consider a medium-sized hospital where I worked on an IT
contract a few years back. The phone operators had a custom program to answer
the phone and another to look up phone numbers, not only for departments and
employees, but also for an ever-shifting roster of patients. The medical
records department had one application to track patient diagnosis and treatment,
and another to aid in the coding of same for insurance billing purposes. The
accounting department had general ledger software and other programs for
dealing with the insurance companies. The cafeteria used an application to plan
patient menus and keep track of their food inventory. One of the most
complicated programs was for scheduling nurses. Nurses are not generally
interchangeable. Certifications, training, years of experience, and preferred
shifts must all be taken into account. Oncology, cardiology, radiology... just
about every department had at least one application specific to their needs. A
similar situation exists in large corporations.
Even if an ISV wanted to offer a Linux version of their software, there would be
significant support issues. Which Linux distribution? What version? Which
shell, which windows manager? Some of these make a difference in the
programming, and some in being able to offer end-user support, especially
remotely. Imagine walking a novice user through editing an .rc file with vi
over the phone. Imagine having to be able to do that for any combination of
Linux distribution and shell.
If this novice has vi on his machine doesn't he already know how to use
it?
No. How does the presence of software on a machine imply that the
user knows how to use the software? If I put Hercules with Z/OS on
your machine does that mean that you know how to run Z/OS?
Post by Dan Espen
People also ask
Does Linux have notepad?
The good news is that Notepad++ is now (unofficially) available as a
Snap package for Linux users.
(a) Notepad++ is not Notepad.
(b) It has not been ported, it runs under Wine. Notpad++ is open
source--you're welcome to port it but I think you'll find that it's an
uphill battle.

No corporation is going to try to support software running in an
environment that the developer does not even pretend to support.
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Questor
There's also the training issue. Simply put, companies don't want to train
employees. If they are using Linux and OpenOffice, where will they find
qualified employees knowledgeable in that software? Saying that those programs
are "pretty much like" Windows and Office isn't good enough. Currently the
baseline in computer ability is competency with Windows and Office. Any
organization using Microsoft products is assured of a large pool of potential
employees with experience using the same.
Back to training time? I think I'm headed down that path in a different direction.
Post by Questor
To be clear, I am not a fan of Microsoft. I think its dangerous to be dependent
on a software monoculture, and my opinion is confirmed with every story about
virus infections, data exfiltrations, and ransomware attacks. Like most people
in alt.folklore.computers, I am technically savvy enough not to be beholden to
Microsoft products should I chose. I also recognize that that is a very small
minority of people, and that there are compelling economic reasons why most
companies are Microsoft shops.
Agree.
To reiterate, diversity bad. Being funny good.
Bob Eager
2020-08-14 11:44:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
If this novice has vi on his machine doesn't he already know how to use
it?
No. How does the presence of software on a machine imply that the user
knows how to use the software? If I put Hercules with Z/OS on your
machine does that mean that you know how to run Z/OS?
Indeed. I have been using UNIX since before vi existed. And I still can't
really use it productively.
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Carlos E.R.
2020-08-14 10:24:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Questor
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:35:54 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:38:28 -0700, Peter Flass
...
Post by Questor
Apparently no one here has had extensive experience in corporate IT or doing a
lot of end-user support.
To begin with, Linux (and also Macintosh) do not have the tools necessary to
remotely support and manage hundreds or thousands of PCs and their access to
corporate network resources. While they may be subject to the same weaknesses
as other Microsoft products, at least Windows has those tools.
Salt?
Post by Questor
Also critical are programs from independent software vendors (ISV). An e-mail
client, a browser, and an office suite are not enough for many employees. Just
about every organization of sufficent size uses a handful of third-party
applications; a large company may have dozens. It simply isn't economically
feasible for most ISVs, which are often small firms serving a niche market, to
port and support versions for Linux and/or the Macintosh. They simply don't
have the customers for those platforms to generate the necessary revenue.
On the other hand, the companies needing that software can join and
create their own, cooperatively, for a lesser cost in the long run.
Post by Questor
For one example, consider a medium-sized hospital where I worked on an IT
contract a few years back. The phone operators had a custom program to answer
the phone and another to look up phone numbers, not only for departments and
employees, but also for an ever-shifting roster of patients. The medical
records department had one application to track patient diagnosis and treatment,
and another to aid in the coding of same for insurance billing purposes. The
accounting department had general ledger software and other programs for
dealing with the insurance companies. The cafeteria used an application to plan
patient menus and keep track of their food inventory. One of the most
complicated programs was for scheduling nurses. Nurses are not generally
interchangeable. Certifications, training, years of experience, and preferred
shifts must all be taken into account. Oncology, cardiology, radiology... just
about every department had at least one application specific to their needs. A
similar situation exists in large corporations.
Even if an ISV wanted to offer a Linux version of their software, there would be
significant support issues. Which Linux distribution? What version? Which
shell, which windows manager? Some of these make a difference in the
programming, and some in being able to offer end-user support, especially
remotely. Imagine walking a novice user through editing an .rc file with vi
over the phone. Imagine having to be able to do that for any combination of
Linux distribution and shell.
Why the heck with vi? (or emacs)
Post by Questor
There's also the training issue. Simply put, companies don't want to train
employees. If they are using Linux and OpenOffice, where will they find
qualified employees knowledgeable in that software? Saying that those programs
are "pretty much like" Windows and Office isn't good enough. Currently the
baseline in computer ability is competency with Windows and Office. Any
organization using Microsoft products is assured of a large pool of potential
employees with experience using the same.
To be clear, I am not a fan of Microsoft. I think its dangerous to be dependent
on a software monoculture, and my opinion is confirmed with every story about
virus infections, data exfiltrations, and ransomware attacks. Like most people
in alt.folklore.computers, I am technically savvy enough not to be beholden to
Microsoft products should I chose. I also recognize that that is a very small
minority of people, and that there are compelling economic reasons why most
companies are Microsoft shops.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
J. Clarke
2020-08-14 11:46:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Questor
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:35:54 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:38:28 -0700, Peter Flass
...
Post by Questor
Apparently no one here has had extensive experience in corporate IT or doing a
lot of end-user support.
To begin with, Linux (and also Macintosh) do not have the tools necessary to
remotely support and manage hundreds or thousands of PCs and their access to
corporate network resources. While they may be subject to the same weaknesses
as other Microsoft products, at least Windows has those tools.
Salt?
Post by Questor
Also critical are programs from independent software vendors (ISV). An e-mail
client, a browser, and an office suite are not enough for many employees. Just
about every organization of sufficent size uses a handful of third-party
applications; a large company may have dozens. It simply isn't economically
feasible for most ISVs, which are often small firms serving a niche market, to
port and support versions for Linux and/or the Macintosh. They simply don't
have the customers for those platforms to generate the necessary revenue.
On the other hand, the companies needing that software can join and
create their own, cooperatively, for a lesser cost in the long run.
There are so many things wrong with this notion that I don't know
where to start. First, the optics on it would suck bigtime--here's
all these companies which collectively have trillions of dollars in
assets ganging up to put this poor little ISV out of business.
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Questor
For one example, consider a medium-sized hospital where I worked on an IT
contract a few years back. The phone operators had a custom program to answer
the phone and another to look up phone numbers, not only for departments and
employees, but also for an ever-shifting roster of patients. The medical
records department had one application to track patient diagnosis and treatment,
and another to aid in the coding of same for insurance billing purposes. The
accounting department had general ledger software and other programs for
dealing with the insurance companies. The cafeteria used an application to plan
patient menus and keep track of their food inventory. One of the most
complicated programs was for scheduling nurses. Nurses are not generally
interchangeable. Certifications, training, years of experience, and preferred
shifts must all be taken into account. Oncology, cardiology, radiology... just
about every department had at least one application specific to their needs. A
similar situation exists in large corporations.
Even if an ISV wanted to offer a Linux version of their software, there would be
significant support issues. Which Linux distribution? What version? Which
shell, which windows manager? Some of these make a difference in the
programming, and some in being able to offer end-user support, especially
remotely. Imagine walking a novice user through editing an .rc file with vi
over the phone. Imagine having to be able to do that for any combination of
Linux distribution and shell.
Why the heck with vi? (or emacs)
OK with what? And note that in the medical field you have government
regulations with which the software has to comply.
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Questor
There's also the training issue. Simply put, companies don't want to train
employees. If they are using Linux and OpenOffice, where will they find
qualified employees knowledgeable in that software? Saying that those programs
are "pretty much like" Windows and Office isn't good enough. Currently the
baseline in computer ability is competency with Windows and Office. Any
organization using Microsoft products is assured of a large pool of potential
employees with experience using the same.
To be clear, I am not a fan of Microsoft. I think its dangerous to be dependent
on a software monoculture, and my opinion is confirmed with every story about
virus infections, data exfiltrations, and ransomware attacks. Like most people
in alt.folklore.computers, I am technically savvy enough not to be beholden to
Microsoft products should I chose. I also recognize that that is a very small
minority of people, and that there are compelling economic reasons why most
companies are Microsoft shops.
Dan Espen
2020-08-14 12:20:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Why the heck with vi? (or emacs)
OK with what?
Linux vi/emacs alternative editors:

Notepad++
Gedit
Nano
Kate/Kwrite
Lime
Pico
Jed

the list goes on, and on, and on...

Here are the 22 best for coding:

https://phoenixnap.com/kb/best-linux-text-editors-for-coding
Post by J. Clarke
And note that in the medical field you have government
regulations with which the software has to comply.
Can't help with any of that but I can't see how an
editor applies to medical practitioners.

Hey JC, don't want to argue, just providing data.
--
Dan Espen
J. Clarke
2020-08-14 17:38:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Why the heck with vi? (or emacs)
OK with what?
Notepad++
Gedit
Nano
Kate/Kwrite
Lime
Pico
Jed
the list goes on, and on, and on...
https://phoenixnap.com/kb/best-linux-text-editors-for-coding
Post by J. Clarke
And note that in the medical field you have government
regulations with which the software has to comply.
Can't help with any of that but I can't see how an
editor applies to medical practitioners.
Hey JC, don't want to argue, just providing data.
And if I as joe random tech support person am dealing with fred random
customer, do I make him go down that entire list and find that none of
them are installed before I finally get him to vi?
Carlos E.R.
2020-08-14 17:50:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Why the heck with vi? (or emacs)
OK with what?
Notepad++
Gedit
Nano
Kate/Kwrite
Lime
Pico
Jed
the list goes on, and on, and on...
https://phoenixnap.com/kb/best-linux-text-editors-for-coding
Post by J. Clarke
And note that in the medical field you have government
regulations with which the software has to comply.
Can't help with any of that but I can't see how an
editor applies to medical practitioners.
Hey JC, don't want to argue, just providing data.
And if I as joe random tech support person am dealing with fred random
customer, do I make him go down that entire list and find that none of
them are installed before I finally get him to vi?
Then I would guide him to install something else, and spank him hard for
deleting the editors I installed for him.

If he deleted the editors, he probably deleted way more, and I would
have to go to the site and reinstall the entire system from backup.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
J. Clarke
2020-08-14 18:01:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 19:50:43 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Why the heck with vi? (or emacs)
OK with what?
Notepad++
Gedit
Nano
Kate/Kwrite
Lime
Pico
Jed
the list goes on, and on, and on...
https://phoenixnap.com/kb/best-linux-text-editors-for-coding
Post by J. Clarke
And note that in the medical field you have government
regulations with which the software has to comply.
Can't help with any of that but I can't see how an
editor applies to medical practitioners.
Hey JC, don't want to argue, just providing data.
And if I as joe random tech support person am dealing with fred random
customer, do I make him go down that entire list and find that none of
them are installed before I finally get him to vi?
Then I would guide him to install something else, and spank him hard for
deleting the editors I installed for him.
If he deleted the editors, he probably deleted way more, and I would
have to go to the site and reinstall the entire system from backup.
How was he able to delete the editors? If my employer doesn't want me
to delete something on Windows he takes away the privilege to delete
it.

And why did you install all those editors to begin with?

And why would you have to go to the site?
Carlos E.R.
2020-08-14 19:31:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 19:50:43 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Why the heck with vi? (or emacs)
OK with what?
Notepad++
Gedit
Nano
Kate/Kwrite
Lime
Pico
Jed
the list goes on, and on, and on...
https://phoenixnap.com/kb/best-linux-text-editors-for-coding
Post by J. Clarke
And note that in the medical field you have government
regulations with which the software has to comply.
Can't help with any of that but I can't see how an
editor applies to medical practitioners.
Hey JC, don't want to argue, just providing data.
And if I as joe random tech support person am dealing with fred random
customer, do I make him go down that entire list and find that none of
them are installed before I finally get him to vi?
Then I would guide him to install something else, and spank him hard for
deleting the editors I installed for him.
If he deleted the editors, he probably deleted way more, and I would
have to go to the site and reinstall the entire system from backup.
How was he able to delete the editors? If my employer doesn't want me
to delete something on Windows he takes away the privilege to delete
it.
If the editors are not there, he deleted them.
Post by J. Clarke
And why did you install all those editors to begin with?
I did not say all. Some of them, sure.
Post by J. Clarke
And why would you have to go to the site?
Because he tampered with the installation way too much.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
J. Clarke
2020-08-14 20:37:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 21:31:13 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 19:50:43 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Why the heck with vi? (or emacs)
OK with what?
Notepad++
Gedit
Nano
Kate/Kwrite
Lime
Pico
Jed
the list goes on, and on, and on...
https://phoenixnap.com/kb/best-linux-text-editors-for-coding
Post by J. Clarke
And note that in the medical field you have government
regulations with which the software has to comply.
Can't help with any of that but I can't see how an
editor applies to medical practitioners.
Hey JC, don't want to argue, just providing data.
And if I as joe random tech support person am dealing with fred random
customer, do I make him go down that entire list and find that none of
them are installed before I finally get him to vi?
Then I would guide him to install something else, and spank him hard for
deleting the editors I installed for him.
If he deleted the editors, he probably deleted way more, and I would
have to go to the site and reinstall the entire system from backup.
How was he able to delete the editors? If my employer doesn't want me
to delete something on Windows he takes away the privilege to delete
it.
If the editors are not there, he deleted them.
Post by J. Clarke
And why did you install all those editors to begin with?
I did not say all. Some of them, sure.
Post by J. Clarke
And why would you have to go to the site?
Because he tampered with the installation way too much.
And so you have given several reasons why Linux is not satisfactory in
a corporate environment.
Scott Lurndal
2020-08-14 21:38:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 21:31:13 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 19:50:43 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Why the heck with vi? (or emacs)
OK with what?
Notepad++
Gedit
Nano
Kate/Kwrite
Lime
Pico
Jed
the list goes on, and on, and on...
https://phoenixnap.com/kb/best-linux-text-editors-for-coding
Post by J. Clarke
And note that in the medical field you have government
regulations with which the software has to comply.
Can't help with any of that but I can't see how an
editor applies to medical practitioners.
Hey JC, don't want to argue, just providing data.
And if I as joe random tech support person am dealing with fred random
customer, do I make him go down that entire list and find that none of
them are installed before I finally get him to vi?
Then I would guide him to install something else, and spank him hard for
deleting the editors I installed for him.
If he deleted the editors, he probably deleted way more, and I would
have to go to the site and reinstall the entire system from backup.
How was he able to delete the editors? If my employer doesn't want me
to delete something on Windows he takes away the privilege to delete
it.
If the editors are not there, he deleted them.
Post by J. Clarke
And why did you install all those editors to begin with?
I did not say all. Some of them, sure.
Post by J. Clarke
And why would you have to go to the site?
Because he tampered with the installation way too much.
And so you have given several reasons why Linux is not satisfactory in
a corporate environment.
Several folks have pointed out to you that linux can be locked
down just as much as windows can. The fact that this one
system wasn't properly locked down can't be blamed on linux.
Carlos E.R.
2020-08-14 22:00:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 21:31:13 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 19:50:43 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Why the heck with vi? (or emacs)
OK with what?
Notepad++
Gedit
Nano
Kate/Kwrite
Lime
Pico
Jed
the list goes on, and on, and on...
https://phoenixnap.com/kb/best-linux-text-editors-for-coding
Post by J. Clarke
And note that in the medical field you have government
regulations with which the software has to comply.
Can't help with any of that but I can't see how an
editor applies to medical practitioners.
Hey JC, don't want to argue, just providing data.
And if I as joe random tech support person am dealing with fred random
customer, do I make him go down that entire list and find that none of
them are installed before I finally get him to vi?
Then I would guide him to install something else, and spank him hard for
deleting the editors I installed for him.
If he deleted the editors, he probably deleted way more, and I would
have to go to the site and reinstall the entire system from backup.
How was he able to delete the editors? If my employer doesn't want me
to delete something on Windows he takes away the privilege to delete
it.
If the editors are not there, he deleted them.
Post by J. Clarke
And why did you install all those editors to begin with?
I did not say all. Some of them, sure.
Post by J. Clarke
And why would you have to go to the site?
Because he tampered with the installation way too much.
And so you have given several reasons why Linux is not satisfactory in
a corporate environment.
Several folks have pointed out to you that linux can be locked
down just as much as windows can. The fact that this one
system wasn't properly locked down can't be blamed on linux.
Sure. I was just answering to his "what if".
I did not setup that system, he did :-P
--
Cheers, Carlos.
J. Clarke
2020-08-14 22:18:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 00:00:44 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 21:31:13 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 19:50:43 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Why the heck with vi? (or emacs)
OK with what?
Notepad++
Gedit
Nano
Kate/Kwrite
Lime
Pico
Jed
the list goes on, and on, and on...
https://phoenixnap.com/kb/best-linux-text-editors-for-coding
Post by J. Clarke
And note that in the medical field you have government
regulations with which the software has to comply.
Can't help with any of that but I can't see how an
editor applies to medical practitioners.
Hey JC, don't want to argue, just providing data.
And if I as joe random tech support person am dealing with fred random
customer, do I make him go down that entire list and find that none of
them are installed before I finally get him to vi?
Then I would guide him to install something else, and spank him hard for
deleting the editors I installed for him.
If he deleted the editors, he probably deleted way more, and I would
have to go to the site and reinstall the entire system from backup.
How was he able to delete the editors? If my employer doesn't want me
to delete something on Windows he takes away the privilege to delete
it.
If the editors are not there, he deleted them.
Post by J. Clarke
And why did you install all those editors to begin with?
I did not say all. Some of them, sure.
Post by J. Clarke
And why would you have to go to the site?
Because he tampered with the installation way too much.
And so you have given several reasons why Linux is not satisfactory in
a corporate environment.
Several folks have pointed out to you that linux can be locked
down just as much as windows can. The fact that this one
system wasn't properly locked down can't be blamed on linux.
Sure. I was just answering to his "what if".
I did not setup that system, he did :-P
You're the IT guy who put all these unneeded and unwanted editors on
the machine. Why does someone need to have 8 editors?

Oh, and why did you put an unsupported editor on the machine?

You give the impression that you've never actually provided tech
support, just read about it in a book somewhere.

As for medical practitioners, is your editor HIPPA-compliant?
Dave Garland
2020-08-14 23:51:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
As for medical practitioners, is your editor HIPPA-compliant?
What in the world does an editor need to be HIPAA compliant?

You need to keep control over where any copies of patient data go. So
you wouldn't want a cloud-based editor. You wouldn't want an editor
(or OS) that might share work with any un-vetted party (like
Microsoft) under any circumstance. If you're saving on a LAN or to an
ISP, you'd want assurances that the storage was HIPPA compliant and
that all the techs knew to keep it that way. Encrypted is good,
keeping the data local is best.

I doubt that Windows itself is HIPAA compliant unless it's locked down
pretty tight, or has some sort of special dispensation from the Pope.
It's way to eager to share unspecified data with MS.

I see that GSuite claims HIPAA compliance, and O365 claims it can be.
But unless Google or MS is willing to sign an indemnity agreement
guaranteeing that (fat chance!), I'm not sure I'd trust it.
Carlos E.R.
2020-08-15 13:03:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 00:00:44 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 21:31:13 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 19:50:43 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Why the heck with vi? (or emacs)
OK with what?
Notepad++
Gedit
Nano
Kate/Kwrite
Lime
Pico
Jed
the list goes on, and on, and on...
https://phoenixnap.com/kb/best-linux-text-editors-for-coding
Post by J. Clarke
And note that in the medical field you have government
regulations with which the software has to comply.
Can't help with any of that but I can't see how an
editor applies to medical practitioners.
Hey JC, don't want to argue, just providing data.
And if I as joe random tech support person am dealing with fred random
customer, do I make him go down that entire list and find that none of
them are installed before I finally get him to vi?
Then I would guide him to install something else, and spank him hard for
deleting the editors I installed for him.
If he deleted the editors, he probably deleted way more, and I would
have to go to the site and reinstall the entire system from backup.
How was he able to delete the editors? If my employer doesn't want me
to delete something on Windows he takes away the privilege to delete
it.
If the editors are not there, he deleted them.
Post by J. Clarke
And why did you install all those editors to begin with?
I did not say all. Some of them, sure.
Post by J. Clarke
And why would you have to go to the site?
Because he tampered with the installation way too much.
And so you have given several reasons why Linux is not satisfactory in
a corporate environment.
Several folks have pointed out to you that linux can be locked
down just as much as windows can. The fact that this one
system wasn't properly locked down can't be blamed on linux.
Sure. I was just answering to his "what if".
I did not setup that system, he did :-P
You're the IT guy who put all these unneeded and unwanted editors on
the machine. Why does someone need to have 8 editors?
Who said I put all those eight? I said I put some. I did not say which,
or how many. That was you. And I told you this some sentences up, it is
in the quotes, yet you insist.
Post by J. Clarke
Oh, and why did you put an unsupported editor on the machine?
Why would it be unsuported? All I put is supported.
Post by J. Clarke
You give the impression that you've never actually provided tech
support, just read about it in a book somewhere.
This is not exact, but I will not expand.
Post by J. Clarke
As for medical practitioners, is your editor HIPPA-compliant?
I don't work for them.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
J. Clarke
2020-08-15 16:09:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 15:03:35 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 00:00:44 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 21:31:13 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 19:50:43 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Why the heck with vi? (or emacs)
OK with what?
Notepad++
Gedit
Nano
Kate/Kwrite
Lime
Pico
Jed
the list goes on, and on, and on...
https://phoenixnap.com/kb/best-linux-text-editors-for-coding
Post by J. Clarke
And note that in the medical field you have government
regulations with which the software has to comply.
Can't help with any of that but I can't see how an
editor applies to medical practitioners.
Hey JC, don't want to argue, just providing data.
And if I as joe random tech support person am dealing with fred random
customer, do I make him go down that entire list and find that none of
them are installed before I finally get him to vi?
Then I would guide him to install something else, and spank him hard for
deleting the editors I installed for him.
If he deleted the editors, he probably deleted way more, and I would
have to go to the site and reinstall the entire system from backup.
How was he able to delete the editors? If my employer doesn't want me
to delete something on Windows he takes away the privilege to delete
it.
If the editors are not there, he deleted them.
Post by J. Clarke
And why did you install all those editors to begin with?
I did not say all. Some of them, sure.
Post by J. Clarke
And why would you have to go to the site?
Because he tampered with the installation way too much.
And so you have given several reasons why Linux is not satisfactory in
a corporate environment.
Several folks have pointed out to you that linux can be locked
down just as much as windows can. The fact that this one
system wasn't properly locked down can't be blamed on linux.
Sure. I was just answering to his "what if".
I did not setup that system, he did :-P
You're the IT guy who put all these unneeded and unwanted editors on
the machine. Why does someone need to have 8 editors?
Who said I put all those eight? I said I put some. I did not say which,
or how many. That was you. And I told you this some sentences up, it is
in the quotes, yet you insist.
Post by J. Clarke
Oh, and why did you put an unsupported editor on the machine?
Why would it be unsuported? All I put is supported.
In what universe is Notepad++ supported under Linux and who supports
it? The developer certainly doesn't.
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
You give the impression that you've never actually provided tech
support, just read about it in a book somewhere.
This is not exact, but I will not expand.
Post by J. Clarke
As for medical practitioners, is your editor HIPPA-compliant?
I don't work for them.
Well then maybe you should STFU about what works in that scenario.
Carlos E.R.
2020-08-15 18:15:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 15:03:35 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 00:00:44 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 21:31:13 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 19:50:43 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Why the heck with vi? (or emacs)
OK with what?
Notepad++
Gedit
Nano
Kate/Kwrite
Lime
Pico
Jed
the list goes on, and on, and on...
https://phoenixnap.com/kb/best-linux-text-editors-for-coding
Post by J. Clarke
And note that in the medical field you have government
regulations with which the software has to comply.
Can't help with any of that but I can't see how an
editor applies to medical practitioners.
Hey JC, don't want to argue, just providing data.
And if I as joe random tech support person am dealing with fred random
customer, do I make him go down that entire list and find that none of
them are installed before I finally get him to vi?
Then I would guide him to install something else, and spank him hard for
deleting the editors I installed for him.
If he deleted the editors, he probably deleted way more, and I would
have to go to the site and reinstall the entire system from backup.
How was he able to delete the editors? If my employer doesn't want me
to delete something on Windows he takes away the privilege to delete
it.
If the editors are not there, he deleted them.
Post by J. Clarke
And why did you install all those editors to begin with?
I did not say all. Some of them, sure.
Post by J. Clarke
And why would you have to go to the site?
Because he tampered with the installation way too much.
And so you have given several reasons why Linux is not satisfactory in
a corporate environment.
Several folks have pointed out to you that linux can be locked
down just as much as windows can. The fact that this one
system wasn't properly locked down can't be blamed on linux.
Sure. I was just answering to his "what if".
I did not setup that system, he did :-P
You're the IT guy who put all these unneeded and unwanted editors on
the machine. Why does someone need to have 8 editors?
Who said I put all those eight? I said I put some. I did not say which,
or how many. That was you. And I told you this some sentences up, it is
in the quotes, yet you insist.
Post by J. Clarke
Oh, and why did you put an unsupported editor on the machine?
Why would it be unsuported? All I put is supported.
In what universe is Notepad++ supported under Linux and who supports
it? The developer certainly doesn't.
What is it you don't understand about "some"? I install some editors?
/I/ did not say which.

I certainly do not ask my users to edit with vi, unless they happen to
like it.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
You give the impression that you've never actually provided tech
support, just read about it in a book somewhere.
This is not exact, but I will not expand.
Post by J. Clarke
As for medical practitioners, is your editor HIPPA-compliant?
I don't work for them.
Well then maybe you should STFU about what works in that scenario.
It is you who talk about that scenario, not me.
Are you trying to start a fight or a flame, perhaps? Trying to make me
say something and then piss me?
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Peter Flass
2020-08-15 18:36:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
What the heck is notepad++? What does it do that notepad doesn’t?
--
Pete
Carlos E.R.
2020-08-15 19:42:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Flass
What the heck is notepad++? What does it do that notepad doesn’t?
No idea. I assume it has enhanced features.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notepad%2B%2B>

"Notepad++ is a text and source code editor for use with Microsoft
Windows. It supports tabbed editing, which allows working with multiple
open files in a single window. The project's name comes from the C
increment operator.

Notepad++ is distributed as free software. At first the project was
hosted on SourceForge.net, from where it has been downloaded over 28
million times,[2][3] and twice won the SourceForge Community Choice
Award for Best Developer Tool.[4] The project was hosted on TuxFamily
[fr] from 2010 to 2015; since 2015 Notepad++ has been hosted on
GitHub.[5] Notepad++ uses the Scintilla editor component."


Well, it is a source code editor, not a plain editor.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Dan Espen
2020-08-15 20:37:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Flass
What the heck is notepad++? What does it do that notepad doesn’t?
Seems like that would be a question that would be easy to answer.
Let's see:

Supports more languages
Higher execution speed
smaller program size
Tabbed documents
Spell checker
File comparisons
Better find/replace
Automatic language detection
syntax highlighting
Record/playback macros
display line numbers
Function overview
27 available plugins

Not a full IDE or word processor but
looks pretty good to me.

I don't use either, but I remember, back in my Sun/OS days
we used to exchange files with PC users and the PC users would complain
that they didn't get the file.

I had to look at what they were doing and it turned out Notepad just
seemed to ignore Unix line endings and display the entire file as one
line. The PC user didn't notice the one line and thought they got
nothing.

I just saw a video that claimed that problem and other similar problems
still remain.

So, we used to tell our PC users to avoid Notepad at all costs.
Looks like that's still good advice but now there is a better substitute.
--
Dan Espen
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-08-15 21:01:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
What the heck is notepad++? What does it do that notepad doesn’t?
Notepad is/was very basic;

I use Notepad2. It does syntax highlighting, Search/Replace, accommodates
Unix/Mac line endings, handles UTF8. No tabbed documents. No spellcheck
Post by Dan Espen
Seems like that would be a question that would be easy to answer.
Supports more languages
Higher execution speed
smaller program size
Tabbed documents
Spell checker
File comparisons
Better find/replace
Automatic language detection
syntax highlighting
Record/playback macros
display line numbers
Function overview
27 available plugins
Not a full IDE or word processor but
looks pretty good to me.
I don't use either, but I remember, back in my Sun/OS days
we used to exchange files with PC users and the PC users would complain
that they didn't get the file.
I had to look at what they were doing and it turned out Notepad just
seemed to ignore Unix line endings and display the entire file as one
line. The PC user didn't notice the one line and thought they got
nothing.
I just saw a video that claimed that problem and other similar problems
still remain.
So, we used to tell our PC users to avoid Notepad at all costs.
Looks like that's still good advice but now there is a better substitute.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
J. Clarke
2020-08-15 22:07:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Peter Flass
What the heck is notepad++? What does it do that notepad doesn’t?
Seems like that would be a question that would be easy to answer.
Supports more languages
Higher execution speed
smaller program size
Tabbed documents
Spell checker
File comparisons
Better find/replace
Automatic language detection
syntax highlighting
Record/playback macros
display line numbers
Function overview
27 available plugins
Not a full IDE or word processor but
looks pretty good to me.
I don't use either, but I remember, back in my Sun/OS days
we used to exchange files with PC users and the PC users would complain
that they didn't get the file.
I had to look at what they were doing and it turned out Notepad just
seemed to ignore Unix line endings and display the entire file as one
line. The PC user didn't notice the one line and thought they got
nothing.
I just saw a video that claimed that problem and other similar problems
still remain.
So, we used to tell our PC users to avoid Notepad at all costs.
Looks like that's still good advice but now there is a better substitute.
You've hit on a lot of the benefits of notepad++, but one you missed
is that it supports regular expressions in the find and replace
functions.

It also remembers its state on exit. Open it and it comes back up
with the same files open as when it was closed, even if they were
never explictly saved after being created.

It also allows line endings to be specified as CR-LF, CR, or LF and
supports a wide range of encodings.

One of the very low priority items on my to-do list is to beat it into
a state where it can handle APL gracefully--there's "add your own
language support" built in.
Dan Espen
2020-08-15 22:46:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by Peter Flass
What the heck is notepad++? What does it do that notepad doesn’t?
Seems like that would be a question that would be easy to answer.
Supports more languages
Higher execution speed
smaller program size
Tabbed documents
Spell checker
File comparisons
Better find/replace
Automatic language detection
syntax highlighting
Record/playback macros
display line numbers
Function overview
27 available plugins
Not a full IDE or word processor but
looks pretty good to me.
I don't use either, but I remember, back in my Sun/OS days
we used to exchange files with PC users and the PC users would complain
that they didn't get the file.
I had to look at what they were doing and it turned out Notepad just
seemed to ignore Unix line endings and display the entire file as one
line. The PC user didn't notice the one line and thought they got
nothing.
I just saw a video that claimed that problem and other similar problems
still remain.
So, we used to tell our PC users to avoid Notepad at all costs.
Looks like that's still good advice but now there is a better substitute.
You've hit on a lot of the benefits of notepad++, but one you missed
is that it supports regular expressions in the find and replace
functions.
The stuff I read wasn't specific about why it was a better find/replace
but RE's in find/replace is a big win.

I wonder if it also does what Emacs does, when you replace a word by
another word, it carries over the capitalization of the original
word into the replacement word. First time I saw Emacs do that
I was impressed as hell.
Post by J. Clarke
It also remembers its state on exit. Open it and it comes back up
with the same files open as when it was closed, even if they were
never explictly saved after being created.
I did read about that but decided I couldn't describe it
in a couple of words like the other items.
Post by J. Clarke
It also allows line endings to be specified as CR-LF, CR, or LF and
supports a wide range of encodings.
One of the very low priority items on my to-do list is to beat it into
a state where it can handle APL gracefully--there's "add your own
language support" built in.
That's cool too.

I was tempted to add to the list that it's open source,
so if there's something you can't just do externally talented
users can just dive in.

I was able to add support to Emacs for ISPF panels, CLISTS,
HLASM. It's nice when you can twist the dials yourself.
--
Dan Espen
J. Clarke
2020-08-15 21:41:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 20:15:51 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 15:03:35 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 00:00:44 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 21:31:13 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 19:50:43 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Why the heck with vi? (or emacs)
OK with what?
Notepad++
Gedit
Nano
Kate/Kwrite
Lime
Pico
Jed
the list goes on, and on, and on...
https://phoenixnap.com/kb/best-linux-text-editors-for-coding
Post by J. Clarke
And note that in the medical field you have government
regulations with which the software has to comply.
Can't help with any of that but I can't see how an
editor applies to medical practitioners.
Hey JC, don't want to argue, just providing data.
And if I as joe random tech support person am dealing with fred random
customer, do I make him go down that entire list and find that none of
them are installed before I finally get him to vi?
Then I would guide him to install something else, and spank him hard for
deleting the editors I installed for him.
If he deleted the editors, he probably deleted way more, and I would
have to go to the site and reinstall the entire system from backup.
How was he able to delete the editors? If my employer doesn't want me
to delete something on Windows he takes away the privilege to delete
it.
If the editors are not there, he deleted them.
Post by J. Clarke
And why did you install all those editors to begin with?
I did not say all. Some of them, sure.
Post by J. Clarke
And why would you have to go to the site?
Because he tampered with the installation way too much.
And so you have given several reasons why Linux is not satisfactory in
a corporate environment.
Several folks have pointed out to you that linux can be locked
down just as much as windows can. The fact that this one
system wasn't properly locked down can't be blamed on linux.
Sure. I was just answering to his "what if".
I did not setup that system, he did :-P
You're the IT guy who put all these unneeded and unwanted editors on
the machine. Why does someone need to have 8 editors?
Who said I put all those eight? I said I put some. I did not say which,
or how many. That was you. And I told you this some sentences up, it is
in the quotes, yet you insist.
Post by J. Clarke
Oh, and why did you put an unsupported editor on the machine?
Why would it be unsuported? All I put is supported.
In what universe is Notepad++ supported under Linux and who supports
it? The developer certainly doesn't.
What is it you don't understand about "some"? I install some editors?
/I/ did not say which.
Notepad++ was first on your list and you said that all you put were
supported.

Really, you can't even keep your own argument straight.
Post by Carlos E.R.
I certainly do not ask my users to edit with vi, unless they happen to
like it.
Well touch you.
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
You give the impression that you've never actually provided tech
support, just read about it in a book somewhere.
This is not exact, but I will not expand.
Post by J. Clarke
As for medical practitioners, is your editor HIPPA-compliant?
I don't work for them.
Well then maybe you should STFU about what works in that scenario.
It is you who talk about that scenario, not me.
Are you trying to start a fight or a flame, perhaps? Trying to make me
say something and then piss me?
<plonk>
Dan Espen
2020-08-15 22:36:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 20:15:51 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 15:03:35 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 00:00:44 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 21:31:13 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 19:50:43 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Why the heck with vi? (or emacs)
OK with what?
Notepad++
Gedit
Nano
Kate/Kwrite
Lime
Pico
Jed
the list goes on, and on, and on...
https://phoenixnap.com/kb/best-linux-text-editors-for-coding
Post by J. Clarke
And note that in the medical field you have government
regulations with which the software has to comply.
Can't help with any of that but I can't see how an
editor applies to medical practitioners.
Hey JC, don't want to argue, just providing data.
And if I as joe random tech support person am dealing with fred random
customer, do I make him go down that entire list and find that none of
them are installed before I finally get him to vi?
Then I would guide him to install something else, and spank him hard for
deleting the editors I installed for him.
If he deleted the editors, he probably deleted way more, and I would
have to go to the site and reinstall the entire system from backup.
How was he able to delete the editors? If my employer doesn't want me
to delete something on Windows he takes away the privilege to delete
it.
If the editors are not there, he deleted them.
Post by J. Clarke
And why did you install all those editors to begin with?
I did not say all. Some of them, sure.
Post by J. Clarke
And why would you have to go to the site?
Because he tampered with the installation way too much.
And so you have given several reasons why Linux is not satisfactory in
a corporate environment.
Several folks have pointed out to you that linux can be locked
down just as much as windows can. The fact that this one
system wasn't properly locked down can't be blamed on linux.
Sure. I was just answering to his "what if".
I did not setup that system, he did :-P
You're the IT guy who put all these unneeded and unwanted editors on
the machine. Why does someone need to have 8 editors?
Who said I put all those eight? I said I put some. I did not say which,
or how many. That was you. And I told you this some sentences up, it is
in the quotes, yet you insist.
Post by J. Clarke
Oh, and why did you put an unsupported editor on the machine?
Why would it be unsuported? All I put is supported.
In what universe is Notepad++ supported under Linux and who supports
it? The developer certainly doesn't.
What is it you don't understand about "some"? I install some editors?
/I/ did not say which.
Notepad++ was first on your list and you said that all you put were
supported.
Really, you can't even keep your own argument straight.
Speaking of keeping things straight, I made the list
but did not make the comment you just replied to.

By the way, being first on my list had no special significance.
I just made up a quick list in response to the question about
what other editor a Linux user might be using.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Carlos E.R.
I certainly do not ask my users to edit with vi, unless they happen to
like it.
Well touch you.
Touch you?
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
You give the impression that you've never actually provided tech
support, just read about it in a book somewhere.
This is not exact, but I will not expand.
Post by J. Clarke
As for medical practitioners, is your editor HIPPA-compliant?
I don't work for them.
Well then maybe you should STFU about what works in that scenario.
It is you who talk about that scenario, not me.
Are you trying to start a fight or a flame, perhaps? Trying to make me
say something and then piss me?
<plonk>
Wow.

Someone got up...

I suppose I'm next.

Hey this isolation is getting to all of us.

I hadn't been out of the house for a couple of weeks.
Today I did the grocery and liquor stores.
I had the mask on but I was smiling underneath.
It's tough living life in complete isolation.
Hope you are not like me and have some people to keep you company.
--
Dan Espen
J. Clarke
2020-08-15 22:56:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 20:15:51 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 15:03:35 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 00:00:44 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 21:31:13 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 19:50:43 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Why the heck with vi? (or emacs)
OK with what?
Notepad++
Gedit
Nano
Kate/Kwrite
Lime
Pico
Jed
the list goes on, and on, and on...
https://phoenixnap.com/kb/best-linux-text-editors-for-coding
Post by J. Clarke
And note that in the medical field you have government
regulations with which the software has to comply.
Can't help with any of that but I can't see how an
editor applies to medical practitioners.
Hey JC, don't want to argue, just providing data.
And if I as joe random tech support person am dealing with fred random
customer, do I make him go down that entire list and find that none of
them are installed before I finally get him to vi?
Then I would guide him to install something else, and spank him hard for
deleting the editors I installed for him.
If he deleted the editors, he probably deleted way more, and I would
have to go to the site and reinstall the entire system from backup.
How was he able to delete the editors? If my employer doesn't want me
to delete something on Windows he takes away the privilege to delete
it.
If the editors are not there, he deleted them.
Post by J. Clarke
And why did you install all those editors to begin with?
I did not say all. Some of them, sure.
Post by J. Clarke
And why would you have to go to the site?
Because he tampered with the installation way too much.
And so you have given several reasons why Linux is not satisfactory in
a corporate environment.
Several folks have pointed out to you that linux can be locked
down just as much as windows can. The fact that this one
system wasn't properly locked down can't be blamed on linux.
Sure. I was just answering to his "what if".
I did not setup that system, he did :-P
You're the IT guy who put all these unneeded and unwanted editors on
the machine. Why does someone need to have 8 editors?
Who said I put all those eight? I said I put some. I did not say which,
or how many. That was you. And I told you this some sentences up, it is
in the quotes, yet you insist.
Post by J. Clarke
Oh, and why did you put an unsupported editor on the machine?
Why would it be unsuported? All I put is supported.
In what universe is Notepad++ supported under Linux and who supports
it? The developer certainly doesn't.
What is it you don't understand about "some"? I install some editors?
/I/ did not say which.
Notepad++ was first on your list and you said that all you put were
supported.
Really, you can't even keep your own argument straight.
Speaking of keeping things straight, I made the list
but did not make the comment you just replied to.
By the way, being first on my list had no special significance.
I just made up a quick list in response to the question about
what other editor a Linux user might be using.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Carlos E.R.
I certainly do not ask my users to edit with vi, unless they happen to
like it.
Well touch you.
Touch you?
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
You give the impression that you've never actually provided tech
support, just read about it in a book somewhere.
This is not exact, but I will not expand.
Post by J. Clarke
As for medical practitioners, is your editor HIPPA-compliant?
I don't work for them.
Well then maybe you should STFU about what works in that scenario.
It is you who talk about that scenario, not me.
Are you trying to start a fight or a flame, perhaps? Trying to make me
say something and then piss me?
<plonk>
Wow.
Someone got up...
I suppose I'm next.
Hey this isolation is getting to all of us.
I hadn't been out of the house for a couple of weeks.
Today I did the grocery and liquor stores.
I had the mask on but I was smiling underneath.
It's tough living life in complete isolation.
Hope you are not like me and have some people to keep you company.
Just when we have meetings at work.
Dan Espen
2020-08-16 01:08:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Hey this isolation is getting to all of us.
I hadn't been out of the house for a couple of weeks.
Today I did the grocery and liquor stores.
I had the mask on but I was smiling underneath.
It's tough living life in complete isolation.
Hope you are not like me and have some people to keep you company.
Just when we have meetings at work.
Geez, of course I no longer work, but I had a reputation
for almost never showing up for meetings. My last 5 years or so,
I became more adamant and just plain refused.

I had one boss I really couldn't stand and she insisted
on delving into everyone's business. When she started
challenging me on the way I was managing my projects I went to
2 different meetings where she attempted to prove she was right
by inviting so called experts. Funny thing was
her experts had known me for years always went to me
for direction on how to do what she was questiojng.
Both times I shot her
down and then refused to ever go to a meeting with
her again. Eventually I went to her boss and got
myself moved out her group to someone that let
her charges manage their own projects. That was the
point where I swore off meetings entirely.

I felt sorry for the rest of the people in the group
because they were afraid to challenge her and they
were my friends.

So, I had a history with meetings.
Hope you enjoy yours and get on better than I did.

I have another meeting story.

This one was while I was still a consultant.
A big department meeting with maybe 20 people
reviewing a design for a new system.
But these clowns idea of reviewing a design was to
fix spelling errors move paragraphs and the like.
So, we weren't into the actual design yet,
but they spent like a half hour
capitalizing words and the like page by page. So, I interrupt and
ask them to forget about the spelling because there
were some serious design issues I wanted to address
a dozen pages ahead.

The next few pages and a bunch more spelling corrections
I get up and walk out. I go back to my office
and send the whole group an long email explainging
why the entire approach was wrong and they were
designing something useless.

So, they ended up with a document with probably only a few
spelling errors left that got put aside and never implemented.
--
Dan Espen
Peter Flass
2020-08-16 22:56:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Hey this isolation is getting to all of us.
I hadn't been out of the house for a couple of weeks.
Today I did the grocery and liquor stores.
I had the mask on but I was smiling underneath.
It's tough living life in complete isolation.
Hope you are not like me and have some people to keep you company.
Just when we have meetings at work.
Geez, of course I no longer work, but I had a reputation
for almost never showing up for meetings. My last 5 years or so,
I became more adamant and just plain refused.
I had one boss I really couldn't stand and she insisted
on delving into everyone's business. When she started
challenging me on the way I was managing my projects I went to
2 different meetings where she attempted to prove she was right
by inviting so called experts. Funny thing was
her experts had known me for years always went to me
for direction on how to do what she was questiojng.
Both times I shot her
down and then refused to ever go to a meeting with
her again. Eventually I went to her boss and got
myself moved out her group to someone that let
her charges manage their own projects. That was the
point where I swore off meetings entirely.
I felt sorry for the rest of the people in the group
because they were afraid to challenge her and they
were my friends.
So, I had a history with meetings.
Hope you enjoy yours and get on better than I did.
I have another meeting story.
This one was while I was still a consultant.
A big department meeting with maybe 20 people
reviewing a design for a new system.
But these clowns idea of reviewing a design was to
fix spelling errors move paragraphs and the like.
So, we weren't into the actual design yet,
but they spent like a half hour
capitalizing words and the like page by page. So, I interrupt and
ask them to forget about the spelling because there
were some serious design issues I wanted to address
a dozen pages ahead.
The next few pages and a bunch more spelling corrections
I get up and walk out. I go back to my office
and send the whole group an long email explainging
why the entire approach was wrong and they were
designing something useless.
Why the heck would you do this in a meeting? Of course there are no
secretaries any more, but it used to be possible to give this to a good
secretary and ask “could you go over this and fix spelling and grammar.”
and expect to get it back all cleaned up in an hour or so.
--
Pete
J. Clarke
2020-08-16 23:16:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 15:56:26 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Hey this isolation is getting to all of us.
I hadn't been out of the house for a couple of weeks.
Today I did the grocery and liquor stores.
I had the mask on but I was smiling underneath.
It's tough living life in complete isolation.
Hope you are not like me and have some people to keep you company.
Just when we have meetings at work.
Geez, of course I no longer work, but I had a reputation
for almost never showing up for meetings. My last 5 years or so,
I became more adamant and just plain refused.
I had one boss I really couldn't stand and she insisted
on delving into everyone's business. When she started
challenging me on the way I was managing my projects I went to
2 different meetings where she attempted to prove she was right
by inviting so called experts. Funny thing was
her experts had known me for years always went to me
for direction on how to do what she was questiojng.
Both times I shot her
down and then refused to ever go to a meeting with
her again. Eventually I went to her boss and got
myself moved out her group to someone that let
her charges manage their own projects. That was the
point where I swore off meetings entirely.
I felt sorry for the rest of the people in the group
because they were afraid to challenge her and they
were my friends.
So, I had a history with meetings.
Hope you enjoy yours and get on better than I did.
I have another meeting story.
This one was while I was still a consultant.
A big department meeting with maybe 20 people
reviewing a design for a new system.
But these clowns idea of reviewing a design was to
fix spelling errors move paragraphs and the like.
So, we weren't into the actual design yet,
but they spent like a half hour
capitalizing words and the like page by page. So, I interrupt and
ask them to forget about the spelling because there
were some serious design issues I wanted to address
a dozen pages ahead.
The next few pages and a bunch more spelling corrections
I get up and walk out. I go back to my office
and send the whole group an long email explainging
why the entire approach was wrong and they were
designing something useless.
Why the heck would you do this in a meeting? Of course there are no
secretaries any more, but it used to be possible to give this to a good
secretary and ask “could you go over this and fix spelling and grammar.”
and expect to get it back all cleaned up in an hour or so.
Some managers are just stupid about certain things. I remember a huge
furor over whether to refer to something as a "hovercraft" or an "air
cushion vehicle" with one manager arguing that "hovercraft" was
British so an American company shouldn't use it.

That was the same place where my supervisor would periodically look
down at me, shake his head, and say "this place _sucks_".

In 1980 they were phasing out that product line in 5 years. They're
still making it.
Dan Espen
2020-08-16 23:23:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Dan Espen
The next few pages and a bunch more spelling corrections
I get up and walk out. I go back to my office
and send the whole group an long email explainging
why the entire approach was wrong and they were
designing something useless.
Why the heck would you do this in a meeting? Of course there are no
secretaries any more, but it used to be possible to give this to a good
secretary and ask “could you go over this and fix spelling and grammar.”
and expect to get it back all cleaned up in an hour or so.
No secretaries at that time.
Well, a few levels up in management and he'd have a personal secretary.
Not that I'd expect that would have satisfied these people.
The front of the document had things like definition of terms,
expected audience, a bunch of boiler plate.

The truth was, there were people that knew what they were doing
surrounded by a host of hangers on that had no clue.
But they sure could debate for hours about whether it was MVS or
z/OS and whether SunOS needed a trademark symbol.

Meetings have a momentum all their own.
Someone suggests we need to review the document a page at a time
and that's damn well what we're all going to do.

Oh, geez, I must sound like an old cynic.
--
Dan Espen
Carlos E.R.
2020-08-16 11:16:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 20:15:51 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 15:03:35 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 00:00:44 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 21:31:13 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 19:50:43 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Why the heck with vi? (or emacs)
OK with what?
Notepad++
Gedit
Nano
Kate/Kwrite
Lime
Pico
Jed
the list goes on, and on, and on...
https://phoenixnap.com/kb/best-linux-text-editors-for-coding
Post by J. Clarke
And note that in the medical field you have government
regulations with which the software has to comply.
Can't help with any of that but I can't see how an
editor applies to medical practitioners.
Hey JC, don't want to argue, just providing data.
And if I as joe random tech support person am dealing with fred random
customer, do I make him go down that entire list and find that none of
them are installed before I finally get him to vi?
Then I would guide him to install something else, and spank him hard for
deleting the editors I installed for him.
If he deleted the editors, he probably deleted way more, and I would
have to go to the site and reinstall the entire system from backup.
How was he able to delete the editors? If my employer doesn't want me
to delete something on Windows he takes away the privilege to delete
it.
If the editors are not there, he deleted them.
Post by J. Clarke
And why did you install all those editors to begin with?
I did not say all. Some of them, sure.
Post by J. Clarke
And why would you have to go to the site?
Because he tampered with the installation way too much.
And so you have given several reasons why Linux is not satisfactory in
a corporate environment.
Several folks have pointed out to you that linux can be locked
down just as much as windows can. The fact that this one
system wasn't properly locked down can't be blamed on linux.
Sure. I was just answering to his "what if".
I did not setup that system, he did :-P
You're the IT guy who put all these unneeded and unwanted editors on
the machine. Why does someone need to have 8 editors?
Who said I put all those eight? I said I put some. I did not say which,
or how many. That was you. And I told you this some sentences up, it is
in the quotes, yet you insist.
Post by J. Clarke
Oh, and why did you put an unsupported editor on the machine?
Why would it be unsuported? All I put is supported.
In what universe is Notepad++ supported under Linux and who supports
it? The developer certainly doesn't.
What is it you don't understand about "some"? I install some editors?
/I/ did not say which.
Notepad++ was first on your list and you said that all you put were
supported.
It is not MY list. Learn how to read.
Post by J. Clarke
Really, you can't even keep your own argument straight.
No you trap people into saying what you want, and then blame them for
not agreeing.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Carlos E.R.
I certainly do not ask my users to edit with vi, unless they happen to
like it.
Well touch you.
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
You give the impression that you've never actually provided tech
support, just read about it in a book somewhere.
This is not exact, but I will not expand.
Post by J. Clarke
As for medical practitioners, is your editor HIPPA-compliant?
I don't work for them.
Well then maybe you should STFU about what works in that scenario.
It is you who talk about that scenario, not me.
Are you trying to start a fight or a flame, perhaps? Trying to make me
say something and then piss me?
<plonk>
Plonk.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Peter Flass
2020-08-14 18:46:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Why the heck with vi? (or emacs)
OK with what?
Notepad++
Gedit
Nano
Kate/Kwrite
Lime
Pico
Jed
the list goes on, and on, and on...
https://phoenixnap.com/kb/best-linux-text-editors-for-coding
Post by J. Clarke
And note that in the medical field you have government
regulations with which the software has to comply.
Can't help with any of that but I can't see how an
editor applies to medical practitioners.
Hey JC, don't want to argue, just providing data.
And if I as joe random tech support person am dealing with fred random
customer, do I make him go down that entire list and find that none of
them are installed before I finally get him to vi?
If this were corporate support, you should know exactly what’s installed.
Many corporations supply pre-built images and don’t let users install
software. ISTR PPOE tried to lock up the systems people too, but we
managed to push back on that.
--
Pete
Dan Espen
2020-08-14 19:41:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Why the heck with vi? (or emacs)
OK with what?
Notepad++
Gedit
Nano
Kate/Kwrite
Lime
Pico
Jed
the list goes on, and on, and on...
https://phoenixnap.com/kb/best-linux-text-editors-for-coding
Post by J. Clarke
And note that in the medical field you have government
regulations with which the software has to comply.
Can't help with any of that but I can't see how an
editor applies to medical practitioners.
Hey JC, don't want to argue, just providing data.
And if I as joe random tech support person am dealing with fred random
customer, do I make him go down that entire list and find that none of
them are installed before I finally get him to vi?
Suit yourself.

On further consideration,
if you were a tech support person, wouldn't you have already
installed the stuff you wanted to be used?

Still don't want to causing an argument.
In my view, I'm just trying to get to the truth of the matter.
I think I may drop this pretty soon.

I've got a closet to remodel.
Took me about a week to get to the actual painting stage.
This is a house built in the 50s, but it looks like people
just store things in closets and never really look at the walls
trim, hardware.

Maybe I just have too much time on my hands.
--
Dan Espen
J. Clarke
2020-08-14 20:39:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dan Espen
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Why the heck with vi? (or emacs)
OK with what?
Notepad++
Gedit
Nano
Kate/Kwrite
Lime
Pico
Jed
the list goes on, and on, and on...
https://phoenixnap.com/kb/best-linux-text-editors-for-coding
Post by J. Clarke
And note that in the medical field you have government
regulations with which the software has to comply.
Can't help with any of that but I can't see how an
editor applies to medical practitioners.
Hey JC, don't want to argue, just providing data.
And if I as joe random tech support person am dealing with fred random
customer, do I make him go down that entire list and find that none of
them are installed before I finally get him to vi?
Suit yourself.
On further consideration,
if you were a tech support person, wouldn't you have already
installed the stuff you wanted to be used?
That depends on who I'm supporting. If it's an employee with company
provided hardware then I have one situation. If it's an agent who
provides his own hardware it's another situation.
Post by Dan Espen
Still don't want to causing an argument.
In my view, I'm just trying to get to the truth of the matter.
I think I may drop this pretty soon.
I've got a closet to remodel.
Took me about a week to get to the actual painting stage.
This is a house built in the 50s, but it looks like people
just store things in closets and never really look at the walls
trim, hardware.
Maybe I just have too much time on my hands.
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
2020-08-14 12:29:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 07:46:57 -0400
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
end-user support, especially remotely. Imagine walking a novice user
through editing an .rc file with vi over the phone. Imagine having to
be able to do that for any combination of Linux distribution and shell.
Why the heck with vi? (or emacs)
OK with what? And note that in the medical field you have government
regulations with which the software has to comply.
If you use salt, ansible, puppet or similar to manage configuration
then that never happens. If you don't then the support engineer uses ssh to
log into the user's machine and fixes it. Either way you never talk a user
through editing files with anything.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Carlos E.R.
2020-08-14 12:36:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 07:46:57 -0400
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
end-user support, especially remotely. Imagine walking a novice user
through editing an .rc file with vi over the phone. Imagine having to
be able to do that for any combination of Linux distribution and shell.
Why the heck with vi? (or emacs)
OK with what? And note that in the medical field you have government
regulations with which the software has to comply.
If you use salt, ansible, puppet or similar to manage configuration
then that never happens. If you don't then the support engineer uses ssh to
log into the user's machine and fixes it. Either way you never talk a user
through editing files with anything.
Right.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Peter Flass
2020-08-14 14:13:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Questor
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:35:54 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:38:28 -0700, Peter Flass
...
Post by Questor
Apparently no one here has had extensive experience in corporate IT or doing a
lot of end-user support.
To begin with, Linux (and also Macintosh) do not have the tools necessary to
remotely support and manage hundreds or thousands of PCs and their access to
corporate network resources. While they may be subject to the same weaknesses
as other Microsoft products, at least Windows has those tools.
Salt?
Post by Questor
Also critical are programs from independent software vendors (ISV). An e-mail
client, a browser, and an office suite are not enough for many employees. Just
about every organization of sufficent size uses a handful of third-party
applications; a large company may have dozens. It simply isn't economically
feasible for most ISVs, which are often small firms serving a niche market, to
port and support versions for Linux and/or the Macintosh. They simply don't
have the customers for those platforms to generate the necessary revenue.
On the other hand, the companies needing that software can join and
create their own, cooperatively, for a lesser cost in the long run.
There are so many things wrong with this notion that I don't know
where to start. First, the optics on it would suck bigtime--here's
all these companies which collectively have trillions of dollars in
assets ganging up to put this poor little ISV out of business.
This is the way things currently work. Someone sets up a nonprofit
foundation which the big companies contribute to. They don’t get exclusive
rights to the software, but I assume they have a certain amount of clout
determining the direction of development and the features. Most major open
source projects are developed this way, and not by some hacker in his
parents’ basement.
--
Pete
J. Clarke
2020-08-14 17:41:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 07:13:26 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Questor
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:35:54 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:38:28 -0700, Peter Flass
...
Post by Questor
Apparently no one here has had extensive experience in corporate IT or doing a
lot of end-user support.
To begin with, Linux (and also Macintosh) do not have the tools necessary to
remotely support and manage hundreds or thousands of PCs and their access to
corporate network resources. While they may be subject to the same weaknesses
as other Microsoft products, at least Windows has those tools.
Salt?
Post by Questor
Also critical are programs from independent software vendors (ISV). An e-mail
client, a browser, and an office suite are not enough for many employees. Just
about every organization of sufficent size uses a handful of third-party
applications; a large company may have dozens. It simply isn't economically
feasible for most ISVs, which are often small firms serving a niche market, to
port and support versions for Linux and/or the Macintosh. They simply don't
have the customers for those platforms to generate the necessary revenue.
On the other hand, the companies needing that software can join and
create their own, cooperatively, for a lesser cost in the long run.
There are so many things wrong with this notion that I don't know
where to start. First, the optics on it would suck bigtime--here's
all these companies which collectively have trillions of dollars in
assets ganging up to put this poor little ISV out of business.
This is the way things currently work. Someone sets up a nonprofit
foundation which the big companies contribute to. They don’t get exclusive
rights to the software, but I assume they have a certain amount of clout
determining the direction of development and the features. Most major open
source projects are developed this way, and not by some hacker in his
parents’ basement.
And how many of those efforts are aimed at a narrow niche, like, say,
computer aided steno transcription or pricing life insurance?
Carlos E.R.
2020-08-14 18:01:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 07:13:26 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Questor
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:35:54 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:38:28 -0700, Peter Flass
...
Post by Questor
Apparently no one here has had extensive experience in corporate IT or doing a
lot of end-user support.
To begin with, Linux (and also Macintosh) do not have the tools necessary to
remotely support and manage hundreds or thousands of PCs and their access to
corporate network resources. While they may be subject to the same weaknesses
as other Microsoft products, at least Windows has those tools.
Salt?
Post by Questor
Also critical are programs from independent software vendors (ISV). An e-mail
client, a browser, and an office suite are not enough for many employees. Just
about every organization of sufficent size uses a handful of third-party
applications; a large company may have dozens. It simply isn't economically
feasible for most ISVs, which are often small firms serving a niche market, to
port and support versions for Linux and/or the Macintosh. They simply don't
have the customers for those platforms to generate the necessary revenue.
On the other hand, the companies needing that software can join and
create their own, cooperatively, for a lesser cost in the long run.
There are so many things wrong with this notion that I don't know
where to start. First, the optics on it would suck bigtime--here's
all these companies which collectively have trillions of dollars in
assets ganging up to put this poor little ISV out of business.
This is the way things currently work. Someone sets up a nonprofit
foundation which the big companies contribute to. They don’t get exclusive
rights to the software, but I assume they have a certain amount of clout
determining the direction of development and the features. Most major open
source projects are developed this way, and not by some hacker in his
parents’ basement.
And how many of those efforts are aimed at a narrow niche, like, say,
computer aided steno transcription or pricing life insurance?
In that case it probably doesn't matter. You will use probably very
expensive software produced for very few people. You first buy the
software, then tailor the computer (with the suitable OS they tell you)
to it.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
J. Clarke
2020-08-14 20:41:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 20:01:50 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 07:13:26 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Questor
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:35:54 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:38:28 -0700, Peter Flass
...
Post by Questor
Apparently no one here has had extensive experience in corporate IT or doing a
lot of end-user support.
To begin with, Linux (and also Macintosh) do not have the tools necessary to
remotely support and manage hundreds or thousands of PCs and their access to
corporate network resources. While they may be subject to the same weaknesses
as other Microsoft products, at least Windows has those tools.
Salt?
Post by Questor
Also critical are programs from independent software vendors (ISV). An e-mail
client, a browser, and an office suite are not enough for many employees. Just
about every organization of sufficent size uses a handful of third-party
applications; a large company may have dozens. It simply isn't economically
feasible for most ISVs, which are often small firms serving a niche market, to
port and support versions for Linux and/or the Macintosh. They simply don't
have the customers for those platforms to generate the necessary revenue.
On the other hand, the companies needing that software can join and
create their own, cooperatively, for a lesser cost in the long run.
There are so many things wrong with this notion that I don't know
where to start. First, the optics on it would suck bigtime--here's
all these companies which collectively have trillions of dollars in
assets ganging up to put this poor little ISV out of business.
This is the way things currently work. Someone sets up a nonprofit
foundation which the big companies contribute to. They don’t get exclusive
rights to the software, but I assume they have a certain amount of clout
determining the direction of development and the features. Most major open
source projects are developed this way, and not by some hacker in his
parents’ basement.
And how many of those efforts are aimed at a narrow niche, like, say,
computer aided steno transcription or pricing life insurance?
In that case it probably doesn't matter. You will use probably very
expensive software produced for very few people. You first buy the
software, then tailor the computer (with the suitable OS they tell you)
to it.
Now you're starting to see the situation.
Carlos E.R.
2020-08-14 22:02:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 20:01:50 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 07:13:26 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:24:41 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by Questor
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:35:54 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:38:28 -0700, Peter Flass
...
Post by Questor
Apparently no one here has had extensive experience in corporate IT or doing a
lot of end-user support.
To begin with, Linux (and also Macintosh) do not have the tools necessary to
remotely support and manage hundreds or thousands of PCs and their access to
corporate network resources. While they may be subject to the same weaknesses
as other Microsoft products, at least Windows has those tools.
Salt?
Post by Questor
Also critical are programs from independent software vendors (ISV). An e-mail
client, a browser, and an office suite are not enough for many employees. Just
about every organization of sufficent size uses a handful of third-party
applications; a large company may have dozens. It simply isn't economically
feasible for most ISVs, which are often small firms serving a niche market, to
port and support versions for Linux and/or the Macintosh. They simply don't
have the customers for those platforms to generate the necessary revenue.
On the other hand, the companies needing that software can join and
create their own, cooperatively, for a lesser cost in the long run.
There are so many things wrong with this notion that I don't know
where to start. First, the optics on it would suck bigtime--here's
all these companies which collectively have trillions of dollars in
assets ganging up to put this poor little ISV out of business.
This is the way things currently work. Someone sets up a nonprofit
foundation which the big companies contribute to. They don’t get exclusive
rights to the software, but I assume they have a certain amount of clout
determining the direction of development and the features. Most major open
source projects are developed this way, and not by some hacker in his
parents’ basement.
And how many of those efforts are aimed at a narrow niche, like, say,
computer aided steno transcription or pricing life insurance?
In that case it probably doesn't matter. You will use probably very
expensive software produced for very few people. You first buy the
software, then tailor the computer (with the suitable OS they tell you)
to it.
Now you're starting to see the situation.
No, I'm aware of this situation since ever.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Scott Lurndal
2020-08-14 18:05:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 07:13:26 -0700, Peter Flass
And how many of those efforts are aimed at a narrow niche, like, say,
computer aided steno transcription or pricing life insurance?
So its all about you. If it doesn't work for you, it clearly
can't work for anyone else. Sigh.
Scott Lurndal
2020-08-14 16:16:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Questor
Apparently no one here has had extensive experience in corporate IT or doing a
lot of end-user support.
To begin with, Linux (and also Macintosh) do not have the tools necessary to
Sure they do. See, for example JAMF for the mac. My company has no problem
remotely managing and supporting hundreds of MACbook pros.

Such software could easily be made available for a given linux distro were there any
demand for it.
Post by Questor
Also critical are programs from independent software vendors (ISV). An e-mail
client, a browser, and an office suite are not enough for many employees.
But they are enough for most, particularly since most corporate
third-party apps are browers based or brower-enabled (e.g. outlook).

We, like many companies, use linux extensively for chip development.
Peter Flass
2020-08-13 16:53:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:35:54 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:38:28 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by gareth evans
I do wonder whether Microsoft is intending to commit suicide by driving
users into the arms of other OSs such as Linux or Android.
Pissing off your customers is not the way to longevity.
Unless you're a monopoly.
But they’re not, any more. Linux can handle 80-90% of all user
requirements, and 100% for typical users. I use either this iPad or my
Linux box for everything, and I can’t recall the last time I felt the need
to use windows.
Can it handle 100 percent of corporate requirements though?
That’ why I said 80-90%. Some places have custom apps that depend on some
windows features - like the APL interface we’ve discussed. Sure they could
be rewritten, but it would probably be pricy. OTOH, you could always keep a
legacy windows box or two around for those things and use Linux for the
rest. Heck, you could probably run windows in a VM on Linux. Isn’t MSFT
developing something that lets you run windows or windows apps on Linux?
I would think moving to Linux would save lots of money, although a company
would still want to pay for support.
Just for openers how long will it take and what will it cost to
retrain thousands of users on Linux and Office 365?
Not as much as you think. There are GUIs for Linux that closely resemble
windows. I use Mate, and I think it’s pretty close. I was never a big
“word” user, but I switched from WordPro to LibraOffice without much
trouble (or training). Similarly I can, if I have to, use “word” on wife’s
windows box on occasion, although I have mostly switched her to Libre.
She’s a smart person, but she’s very non-technical and a naive or maybe
phobic user of computers.
--
Pete
Scott Lurndal
2020-08-14 16:11:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:38:28 -0700, Peter Flass
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by gareth evans
I do wonder whether Microsoft is intending to commit suicide by driving
users into the arms of other OSs such as Linux or Android.
Pissing off your customers is not the way to longevity.
Unless you're a monopoly.
But they’re not, any more. Linux can handle 80-90% of all user
requirements, and 100% for typical users. I use either this iPad or my
Linux box for everything, and I can’t recall the last time I felt the need
to use windows.
Can it handle 100 percent of corporate requirements though?
Entirely depends on the corporation. It certainly can.
gareth evans
2020-08-13 11:00:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by gareth evans
I do wonder whether Microsoft is intending to commit suicide by driving
users into the arms of other OSs such as Linux or Android.
Pissing off your customers is not the way to longevity.
Unless you're a monopoly.
But they’re not, any more. Linux can handle 80-90% of all user
requirements, and 100% for typical users. I use either this iPad or my
Linux box for everything, and I can’t recall the last time I felt the need
to use windows.
But what happens when someone sends you a Microsoft Office file
from Word, Excel or Powerpoint?
Carlos E.R.
2020-08-13 11:48:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by gareth evans
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by gareth evans
I do wonder whether Microsoft is intending to commit suicide by driving
users into the arms of other OSs such as Linux or Android.
Pissing off your customers is not the way to longevity.
Unless you're a monopoly.
But they’re not, any more. Linux can handle 80-90% of all user
requirements, and 100% for typical users. I use either this iPad or my
Linux box for everything, and I can’t recall the last time I felt the need
to use windows.
But what happens when someone sends you a Microsoft Office file
from Word, Excel or Powerpoint?
I don't have much trouble opening them in Libre Office.

Matter of fact, some friends that had to suddenly work at home because
of the virus, found out that the had to produce PDFs from their word
documents before distributing them, and it turned out that their version
of Office could not. So they sent me the files by email, I did the
conversion in LO on Linux, and sent back the PDFs to them. With proof
reading :-)

Sometimes I had to send them back the files in Word format, edited on LO.

:-D
--
Cheers, Carlos.
J. Clarke
2020-08-13 23:01:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:48:49 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by gareth evans
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by gareth evans
I do wonder whether Microsoft is intending to commit suicide by driving
users into the arms of other OSs such as Linux or Android.
Pissing off your customers is not the way to longevity.
Unless you're a monopoly.
But they’re not, any more. Linux can handle 80-90% of all user
requirements, and 100% for typical users. I use either this iPad or my
Linux box for everything, and I can’t recall the last time I felt the need
to use windows.
But what happens when someone sends you a Microsoft Office file
from Word, Excel or Powerpoint?
I don't have much trouble opening them in Libre Office.
Matter of fact, some friends that had to suddenly work at home because
of the virus, found out that the had to produce PDFs from their word
documents before distributing them, and it turned out that their version
of Office could not. So they sent me the files by email, I did the
conversion in LO on Linux, and sent back the PDFs to them. With proof
reading :-)
Print to PDF is built into Windows 7 and Windows 10. You don't need
Office to do it.
Post by Carlos E.R.
Sometimes I had to send them back the files in Word format, edited on LO.
:-D
Carlos E.R.
2020-08-14 01:34:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:48:49 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
Post by Carlos E.R.
Post by gareth evans
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by gareth evans
I do wonder whether Microsoft is intending to commit suicide by driving
users into the arms of other OSs such as Linux or Android.
Pissing off your customers is not the way to longevity.
Unless you're a monopoly.
But they’re not, any more. Linux can handle 80-90% of all user
requirements, and 100% for typical users. I use either this iPad or my
Linux box for everything, and I can’t recall the last time I felt the need
to use windows.
But what happens when someone sends you a Microsoft Office file
from Word, Excel or Powerpoint?
I don't have much trouble opening them in Libre Office.
Matter of fact, some friends that had to suddenly work at home because
of the virus, found out that the had to produce PDFs from their word
documents before distributing them, and it turned out that their version
of Office could not. So they sent me the files by email, I did the
conversion in LO on Linux, and sent back the PDFs to them. With proof
reading :-)
Print to PDF is built into Windows 7 and Windows 10. You don't need
Office to do it.
Apparently, not in those laptops, and with the confinement, I couldn't
go and have a look myself.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Carlos E.R.
Sometimes I had to send them back the files in Word format, edited on LO.
:-D
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
2020-08-13 12:01:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 12:00:23 +0100
Post by gareth evans
But what happens when someone sends you a Microsoft Office file
from Word, Excel or Powerpoint?
On the rare occasions it happens I open them in OpenOffice which
works fine every time I do so. Windows has never had a place on my systems.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
gareth evans
2020-08-13 12:47:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 12:00:23 +0100
Post by gareth evans
But what happens when someone sends you a Microsoft Office file
from Word, Excel or Powerpoint?
On the rare occasions it happens I open them in OpenOffice which
works fine every time I do so. Windows has never had a place on my systems.
As someone who has had complete charge of computers when using them
since 1971, ie, the computer does what I tell it, and nothing more, I
am increasingly frustrated, irritated and pissed off by the Microsoft
products.

I wonder now whether Microsoft is in breach of the British Data
Protection laws because to the uninitiated, everything you do is
reported back to Microsoft HQ.
Roger Blake
2020-08-13 14:28:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by gareth evans
But what happens when someone sends you a Microsoft Office file
from Word, Excel or Powerpoint?
I refuse all files sent in such formats.

If someone does send anything like that, I tell the sender the file is
in a proprietary binary format and I cannot do anything with it. (I also
inform them only plain text or PDF are the only document formats that
I accept.)

--
Peter Flass
2020-08-13 16:53:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by gareth evans
Post by Peter Flass
Post by Charlie Gibbs
Post by gareth evans
I do wonder whether Microsoft is intending to commit suicide by driving
users into the arms of other OSs such as Linux or Android.
Pissing off your customers is not the way to longevity.
Unless you're a monopoly.
But they’re not, any more. Linux can handle 80-90% of all user
requirements, and 100% for typical users. I use either this iPad or my
Linux box for everything, and I can’t recall the last time I felt the need
to use windows.
But what happens when someone sends you a Microsoft Office file
from Word, Excel or Powerpoint?
IME opens just fine.
--
Pete
JimP
2020-08-13 17:15:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 21:30:52 +0100, gareth evans
Post by gareth evans
Post by JimP
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:55:21 +0100, gareth evans
Post by gareth evans
Post by JimP
On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 13:44:45 +0100, gareth evans
Post by gareth evans
Despite McAfee and firewalls etc, I suffered a catastrophic virus at
the weekend, with websites reporting strange errors. Now, it was quite
possible that the router had been hacked. I'd had problems with that
router before and had been advised (5 years ago) to upgrade it. I did
buy a replacement but never got around to it (Never put off till
tomorrow what you can put off till the day after, although perhaps
5 years a stretching point somewhat :-) ).
I changed the router and for belt and braces re-installed W10 from
the recovery partition with the downside that all other programs,
including Microsoft Office, were lost.
Now, how to get Microsoft Office re-installed but without getting
sucked in to the annual subscription of Office365?
Lo! And Behold! For many years now, Microsoft Office has no longer
been supplied on a CD and you had to download it, and Mirabile Dictu,
Microsoft still had a record of my email address and my subscription
to Office 2013, and a slight diversion to resolve the Forgot Password
dilemma, and I downloaded and re-installed Microsoft Office.
Well done Microsoft!
But, there's a downside, in that W10 now insists on a Cortana pop-up
every few minutes and also miniaturises your screen, and it is no wonder
that comments on the Internet proscribe W10 as a virus in itself!
Happy Days!
I suggest reading the tutorials at: https://www.tenforums.com/
I have found them to be very helpful in regards to Win 10.
Thanks for the hint, but I'd been using W10 for over a year and had not
experienced any of these annoying funnies before. In fact, by
recovering from the disk partition I'd assumed that I'd be getting the
same version as before but it seems not so.
There's one remaining irritation; every so often my screen mutates to a
tiny version at top left and there is blurb about a timeline. Any idea
how to stop that irritation?
Nope, which is why I suggested that site. You don't have to create an
account to use the tutorials.
Well, thanks anyway.
I do wonder whether Microsoft is intending to commit suicide by driving
users into the arms of other OSs such as Linux or Android.
Pissing off your customers is not the way to longevity.
They certainly seem bent on doing just that for years and years.
--
Jim
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