LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all?

[gareth evans]

Having cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 with no OS, and thus
was in complete control of the machine, what I seek is an OS
that runs only the programs that I wish, and that does not
have shedloads of daemons and background processes that I did not
launch.

So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

[Thomas Koenig]

Post by gareth evans
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

Use a systemd-free Linux distribution (Devuan comes to mind) and
do not install / start up those daemons that you don't need.

If you want a bare-bones window manager, use i3.

[gareth evans]

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by gareth evans
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

Use a systemd-free Linux distribution (Devuan comes to mind) and
do not install / start up those daemons that you don't need.

That would somewhat defeat the purpose because I'd have to build
up detailed knowledge of the bits in which I have no interest whatsoever!

[Chris]

Post by gareth evans

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by gareth evans
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

Use a systemd-free Linux distribution (Devuan comes to mind) and
do not install / start up those daemons that you don't need.

That would somewhat defeat the purpose because I'd have to build
up detailed knowledge of the bits in which I have no interest whatsoever!

You'll probably get this from others as well, but FreeBSD is the way to
go for those fedup with Linux as bloatware. Install takes less than an
hour via a text interface. On reboot, you get a text login, then install
the gui of choice (xfce4 here) via a handful of packages and you are
good to go.

An Intel E3- class machine is plenty good enough, though an E5- might
be better. Good performance and ~40 watts for an E3, 60-70 watts for an
E5. All earlier Intels draw considerably more power for no better
performance...

Chris

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 14:23:12 +0100

Post by Chris

Post by gareth evans

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by gareth evans
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

Use a systemd-free Linux distribution (Devuan comes to mind) and
do not install / start up those daemons that you don't need.

That would somewhat defeat the purpose because I'd have to build
up detailed knowledge of the bits in which I have no interest whatsoever!

You'll probably get this from others as well, but FreeBSD is the way to
go for those fedup with Linux as bloatware. Install takes less than an
hour via a text interface. On reboot, you get a text login, then install
the gui of choice (xfce4 here) via a handful of packages and you are
good to go.

A worthy suggestion indeed (and my own choice). An interesting
alternative that suits the minimalist who wants to work at understanding
what they've got is Linux From Scratch.

[Chris]

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 14:23:12 +0100

Post by Chris

Post by gareth evans

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by gareth evans
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

Use a systemd-free Linux distribution (Devuan comes to mind) and
do not install / start up those daemons that you don't need.

That would somewhat defeat the purpose because I'd have to build
up detailed knowledge of the bits in which I have no interest whatsoever!

You'll probably get this from others as well, but FreeBSD is the way to
go for those fedup with Linux as bloatware. Install takes less than an
hour via a text interface. On reboot, you get a text login, then install
the gui of choice (xfce4 here) via a handful of packages and you are
good to go.

A worthy suggestion indeed (and my own choice). An interesting
alternative that suits the minimalist who wants to work at understanding
what they've got is Linux From Scratch.

Running a DL320 g8 Proliant here for the windows desktop and a DL360
G8 for the FreeBSD machine. Both 1u high and the last of the Proliants
before uefi bios became the default. Old enough to be cheap as well,
with dual psu, ecc memory, ilom and more than enough performance for
the task. Enough pci-e slots to put in a good enough graphics card
like a Radeon 2250 or similar. What I do like about them is the
raid card, where if disk goes down, just take out the duff drive, fit
a new one and drink coffee while the system rebuilds itself. Not
currently running zfs on that machine, but the h/w raid card gets
the job done just fine...

Chris

[Jim Jackson]

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot

Post by Chris

Post by gareth evans

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by gareth evans
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

Use a systemd-free Linux distribution (Devuan comes to mind) and
do not install / start up those daemons that you don't need.

That would somewhat defeat the purpose because I'd have to build
up detailed knowledge of the bits in which I have no interest whatsoever!

You'll probably get this from others as well, but FreeBSD is the way to
go for those fedup with Linux as bloatware. Install takes less than an
hour via a text interface. On reboot, you get a text login, then install
the gui of choice (xfce4 here) via a handful of packages and you are
good to go.

A worthy suggestion indeed (and my own choice). An interesting
alternative that suits the minimalist who wants to work at understanding
what they've got is Linux From Scratch.

LFS is an excellent educational way to go. I find for debian like Linux
based distro's, I install the minimal base system - the netinst one -
that installs a minimumheadless system, and then I just add the packages
I need - starting for a desktop with an X server, then my preference for
a desktop is lightdm, openbox, lxpanel, xterm and work from there.

Nice and simple not a lot of bloat. If you go for the pre-packaged Desktop
environment - it will be bloat.

[Massimo M.]

Post by Chris
You'll probably get this from others as well, but FreeBSD is the way to
go for those fedup with Linux as bloatware. Install takes less than an
hour via a text interface.

excuse me, but... on what machine?
i installed freebsd on a G8 microserver in less than 25 minutes, and a debian on a 1-cpu VM on a ryzen3600 with a unexpensive ssd in a quarter of hours.
In one hour you can install freebsd via network installation with a 10mb internet connection from a sloppy mirror...

[J. Clarke]

On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 14:50:13 -0700 (PDT), "Massimo M."

Post by Massimo M.

Post by Chris
You'll probably get this from others as well, but FreeBSD is the way to
go for those fedup with Linux as bloatware. Install takes less than an
hour via a text interface.

excuse me, but... on what machine?
i installed freebsd on a G8 microserver in less than 25 minutes, and a debian on a 1-cpu VM on a ryzen3600 with a unexpensive ssd in a quarter of hours.
In one hour you can install freebsd via network installation with a 10mb internet connection from a sloppy mirror...

Are you supporting his argument or disagreeing with him? Your "excuse
me, but on what machine?" suggests that you're disagreeing but then
your facts support his argument.

[Chris]

Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 14:50:13 -0700 (PDT), "Massimo M."

Post by Massimo M.

Post by Chris
You'll probably get this from others as well, but FreeBSD is the way to
go for those fedup with Linux as bloatware. Install takes less than an
hour via a text interface.

excuse me, but... on what machine?
i installed freebsd on a G8 microserver in less than 25 minutes, and a debian on a 1-cpu VM on a ryzen3600 with a unexpensive ssd in a quarter of hours.
In one hour you can install freebsd via network installation with a 10mb internet connection from a sloppy mirror...

Are you supporting his argument or disagreeing with him? Your "excuse
me, but on what machine?" suggests that you're disagreeing but then
your facts support his argument.

Lol. The wonders of usenet :-)...

Chris

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 18:44:57 -0400

Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 14:50:13 -0700 (PDT), "Massimo M."

Post by Massimo M.

Post by Chris
You'll probably get this from others as well, but FreeBSD is the way
to go for those fedup with Linux as bloatware. Install takes less than
an hour via a text interface.

excuse me, but... on what machine?
i installed freebsd on a G8 microserver in less than 25 minutes, and a
debian on a 1-cpu VM on a ryzen3600 with a unexpensive ssd in a quarter
of hours. In one hour you can install freebsd via network installation
with a 10mb internet connection from a sloppy mirror...

To many a 10Mb internet connection is still fast.

Post by J. Clarke
Are you supporting his argument or disagreeing with him? Your "excuse

He's suggesting the argument is understated - personally I'm happy
with 25 minutes being less than an hour.

[Massimo M.]

Are you supporting his argument or disagreeing with him? Your "excuse
me, but on what machine?" suggests that you're disagreeing but then
your facts support his argument.

well, for "less than an hour" i understood "50/55 minutes".

[Chris]

Post by Massimo M.

Post by Chris
You'll probably get this from others as well, but FreeBSD is the way to
go for those fedup with Linux as bloatware. Install takes less than an
hour via a text interface.

excuse me, but... on what machine?
i installed freebsd on a G8 microserver in less than 25 minutes, and a debian on a 1-cpu VM on a ryzen3600 with a unexpensive ssd in a quarter of hours.
In one hour you can install freebsd via network installation with a 10mb internet connection from a sloppy mirror...

Quite possible, less than an hour can include 30 minutes,
but nor pedantic about that. Usually install everything
from a dvd, but yes, it is fast...

Chris

[Bob Eager]

Post by Massimo M.
i installed freebsd on a G8 microserver in less than 25 minutes, and a
debian on a 1-cpu VM on a ryzen3600 with a unexpensive ssd in a quarter
of hours.

I don't even think it takes me that long to install FreeBSD, also on a G8
microserver! But then I am fairly used to it. 15 minutes, including some
custom stuff at a shell prompt along the way (I set up mirrored disks).

[Chris]

Post by Bob Eager

Post by Massimo M.
i installed freebsd on a G8 microserver in less than 25 minutes, and a
debian on a 1-cpu VM on a ryzen3600 with a unexpensive ssd in a quarter
of hours.

I don't even think it takes me that long to install FreeBSD, also on a G8
microserver! But then I am fairly used to it. 15 minutes, including some
custom stuff at a shell prompt along the way (I set up mirrored disks).

Need to add some for post install setup, stuff that isn't included in
the basic install. Gui packages and config, customise rc.conf, ntp
client, nfs mounts etc.

But yes, faster than just about every other os for the basic install...

Chris

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by Chris

Post by Bob Eager

Post by Massimo M.
i installed freebsd on a G8 microserver in less than 25 minutes, and a
debian on a 1-cpu VM on a ryzen3600 with a unexpensive ssd in a quarter
of hours.

I don't even think it takes me that long to install FreeBSD, also on a G8
microserver! But then I am fairly used to it. 15 minutes, including some
custom stuff at a shell prompt along the way (I set up mirrored disks).

Need to add some for post install setup, stuff that isn't included in
the basic install. Gui packages and config, customise rc.conf, ntp
client, nfs mounts etc.
But yes, faster than just about every other os for the basic install...
Chris

In my recent experience it is faster to install FreeBSD than to fix what the
lastest upgrade to Firefox has done to all my settings.

And, then of course there's always the worst case install scenario for
anything:

https://xkcd.com/349/

[Chris]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Chris

Post by Bob Eager

Post by Massimo M.
i installed freebsd on a G8 microserver in less than 25 minutes, and a
debian on a 1-cpu VM on a ryzen3600 with a unexpensive ssd in a quarter
of hours.

I don't even think it takes me that long to install FreeBSD, also on a G8
microserver! But then I am fairly used to it. 15 minutes, including some
custom stuff at a shell prompt along the way (I set up mirrored disks).

Need to add some for post install setup, stuff that isn't included in
the basic install. Gui packages and config, customise rc.conf, ntp
client, nfs mounts etc.
But yes, faster than just about every other os for the basic install...
Chris

In my recent experience it is faster to install FreeBSD than to fix what the
lastest upgrade to Firefox has done to all my settings.
And, then of course there's always the worst case install scenario for
https://xkcd.com/349/

I rarely if ever upgrade anything, once a system is stable. Really don't
need the paranoia of security fixes every other day. As for Firefox,
still on 52.9esr, as that's the last version that will run the classic
theme restorer plugin. I like tabs below and icons grouped at one end
etc, all kinds of stuff that Firefox's later revs have broken with no
alternatives...

Chris

[Charlie Gibbs]

Post by Chris
I rarely if ever upgrade anything, once a system is stable. Really don't
need the paranoia of security fixes every other day. As for Firefox,
still on 52.9esr, as that's the last version that will run the classic
theme restorer plugin. I like tabs below and icons grouped at one end
etc, all kinds of stuff that Firefox's later revs have broken with no
alternatives...

Have you tried Seamonkey? It preserves the classic browser interface.
I left Firefox at release 29. I _hate_ hamburger menus.

https://www.seamonkey-project.org

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by Charlie Gibbs

Post by Chris
I rarely if ever upgrade anything, once a system is stable. Really don't
need the paranoia of security fixes every other day. As for Firefox,
still on 52.9esr, as that's the last version that will run the classic
theme restorer plugin. I like tabs below and icons grouped at one end
etc, all kinds of stuff that Firefox's later revs have broken with no
alternatives...

Have you tried Seamonkey? It preserves the classic browser interface.
I left Firefox at release 29. I _hate_ hamburger menus.
https://www.seamonkey-project.org

You can still get tabs on the bottom with current FF, but it takes
some CSS. I usually have to google around until I find the incantation
to work with the new version. As I set upstream somewhere, it does
seem like I spend more time re-fiddling settings every time FF
releases a new version than I do upgrading to a new FreeBSD release.
(Put the new tab on the right border where I can find it, dang it!)

[Mike Spencer]

Post by Charlie Gibbs
Have you tried Seamonkey? It preserves the classic browser interface.
I left Firefox at release 29. I _hate_ hamburger menus.
https://www.seamonkey-project.org

Since my last upgrade -- tedious and painful in part due to my
ignorance -- a year ago I've been using Seamonkey 2.40.

Big win is that I can turn images, js and cookies on & off from
popdown menus and can enlarge fonts from the keyboard.

OTOH, it totally garbles some sites' CSS, usually satisfactorily
resolved with View->Style->None menu option. On the rare occasions
when I venture to enable js, it sometimes apparently chokes or
shingles off onto the fog. One on single site where I depend on js,
it works as expected.

An option I would like is one that was automatic in Netscape 4 where,
when images were disabled, every <IMG... tag was represented by a
placeholder icon. Clicking that icon cause just that one image to be
fetched and rendered. That meant that I never saw banners, ads,
gratuitous photos of Donald Trump, cute dingbats, logos etc. but could
selectively retrieve the diagram showing how to reinstall the inner
spurving bearing pingfukkit thrust pin on my turboencabulator.

Such image icons appear infrequently and unpredictably with Seamonkey,
possibly due to new HTML syntax referencing images or perhaps POTM.

[J. Clarke]

Post by Chris

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Chris

Post by Bob Eager

Post by Massimo M.
i installed freebsd on a G8 microserver in less than 25 minutes, and a
debian on a 1-cpu VM on a ryzen3600 with a unexpensive ssd in a quarter
of hours.

I don't even think it takes me that long to install FreeBSD, also on a G8
microserver! But then I am fairly used to it. 15 minutes, including some
custom stuff at a shell prompt along the way (I set up mirrored disks).

Need to add some for post install setup, stuff that isn't included in
the basic install. Gui packages and config, customise rc.conf, ntp
client, nfs mounts etc.
But yes, faster than just about every other os for the basic install...
Chris

In my recent experience it is faster to install FreeBSD than to fix what the
lastest upgrade to Firefox has done to all my settings.
And, then of course there's always the worst case install scenario for
https://xkcd.com/349/

I rarely if ever upgrade anything, once a system is stable. Really don't
need the paranoia of security fixes every other day. As for Firefox,
still on 52.9esr, as that's the last version that will run the classic
theme restorer plugin. I like tabs below and icons grouped at one end
etc, all kinds of stuff that Firefox's later revs have broken with no
alternatives...

At work we get updates at least twice a month, whether we need them or
not and regardless of what mission-critical activity is taking place.
I suspect that that won't end until the CEO's machine reboots on him
in the middle of a meeting.

The ones that are really annoying are the ones where a popup appears,
says "reboot immediately", you shut everything down, reboot, an hour
later it's finished installing stuff, the machine comes up, and the
first thing that appears is a popup announcing an update to what was
ostensibly just updated.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Sat, 26 Sep 2020 14:27:28 -0400

Post by J. Clarke
The ones that are really annoying are the ones where a popup appears,
says "reboot immediately", you shut everything down, reboot, an hour
later it's finished installing stuff, the machine comes up, and the
first thing that appears is a popup announcing an update to what was
ostensibly just updated.

Amen to that, I miss having a MacBook for work.

[Peter Flass]

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Chris

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Chris

Post by Bob Eager

Post by Massimo M.
i installed freebsd on a G8 microserver in less than 25 minutes, and a
debian on a 1-cpu VM on a ryzen3600 with a unexpensive ssd in a quarter
of hours.

I don't even think it takes me that long to install FreeBSD, also on a G8
microserver! But then I am fairly used to it. 15 minutes, including some
custom stuff at a shell prompt along the way (I set up mirrored disks).

Need to add some for post install setup, stuff that isn't included in
the basic install. Gui packages and config, customise rc.conf, ntp
client, nfs mounts etc.
But yes, faster than just about every other os for the basic install...
Chris

In my recent experience it is faster to install FreeBSD than to fix what the
lastest upgrade to Firefox has done to all my settings.
And, then of course there's always the worst case install scenario for
https://xkcd.com/349/

I rarely if ever upgrade anything, once a system is stable. Really don't
need the paranoia of security fixes every other day. As for Firefox,
still on 52.9esr, as that's the last version that will run the classic
theme restorer plugin. I like tabs below and icons grouped at one end
etc, all kinds of stuff that Firefox's later revs have broken with no
alternatives...

At work we get updates at least twice a month, whether we need them or
not and regardless of what mission-critical activity is taking place.
I suspect that that won't end until the CEO's machine reboots on him
in the middle of a meeting.
The ones that are really annoying are the ones where a popup appears,
says "reboot immediately", you shut everything down, reboot, an hour
later it's finished installing stuff, the machine comes up, and the
first thing that appears is a popup announcing an update to what was
ostensibly just updated.

Since it’s work, presumably they wouldn’t like it if you unplugged your
network cable overnight.

[J. Clarke]

On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 10:38:09 -0700, Peter Flass

Post by Peter Flass

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Chris

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Chris

Post by Bob Eager

Post by Massimo M.
i installed freebsd on a G8 microserver in less than 25 minutes, and a
debian on a 1-cpu VM on a ryzen3600 with a unexpensive ssd in a quarter
of hours.

I don't even think it takes me that long to install FreeBSD, also on a G8
microserver! But then I am fairly used to it. 15 minutes, including some
custom stuff at a shell prompt along the way (I set up mirrored disks).

Need to add some for post install setup, stuff that isn't included in
the basic install. Gui packages and config, customise rc.conf, ntp
client, nfs mounts etc.
But yes, faster than just about every other os for the basic install...
Chris

In my recent experience it is faster to install FreeBSD than to fix what the
lastest upgrade to Firefox has done to all my settings.
And, then of course there's always the worst case install scenario for
https://xkcd.com/349/

I rarely if ever upgrade anything, once a system is stable. Really don't
need the paranoia of security fixes every other day. As for Firefox,
still on 52.9esr, as that's the last version that will run the classic
theme restorer plugin. I like tabs below and icons grouped at one end
etc, all kinds of stuff that Firefox's later revs have broken with no
alternatives...

At work we get updates at least twice a month, whether we need them or
not and regardless of what mission-critical activity is taking place.
I suspect that that won't end until the CEO's machine reboots on him
in the middle of a meeting.
The ones that are really annoying are the ones where a popup appears,
says "reboot immediately", you shut everything down, reboot, an hour
later it's finished installing stuff, the machine comes up, and the
first thing that appears is a popup announcing an update to what was
ostensibly just updated.

Since it’s work, presumably they wouldn’t like it if you unplugged your
network cable overnight.

It's their computer, so I have to let them do what they want to with
it. On the other hand, the IT department is not run by a Windows
person, so he's deathly afraid of malware--he hasn't learned that the
_true_ malware threat is all the worthless crap that is foisted off on
corporate America as "protection against malware".

[Niklas Karlsson]

Post by Chris
I rarely if ever upgrade anything, once a system is stable. Really don't
need the paranoia of security fixes every other day. As for Firefox,
still on 52.9esr, as that's the last version that will run the classic
theme restorer plugin. I like tabs below and icons grouped at one end
etc, all kinds of stuff that Firefox's later revs have broken with no
alternatives...

I'm still miffed that Firefox redid its architecture and broke all old
plugins. I'm a massive tab hoarder and used Tab Mix Plus so I could have
multiple rows of tabs. That broke.

Niklas

[Dennis Boone]

Post by Thomas Koenig
Use a systemd-free Linux distribution (Devuan comes to mind) and
do not install / start up those daemons that you don't need.

Alpine is a lovably minimal (by default) linux distribution.

De

[Jorgen Grahn]

Post by Dennis Boone

Post by Thomas Koenig
Use a systemd-free Linux distribution (Devuan comes to mind) and
do not install / start up those daemons that you don't need.

Alpine is a lovably minimal (by default) linux distribution.

I somehow doubt the distribution makes much difference. If you don't
install the bloatware, Debian is pretty slim, too. Even the CentOS 7
VM I run at work only has a handful of daemons running. It's mostly a
matter of finding the option in the installer which lets /you/ choose
what to install. And staying away from systemd and Gnome.

/Jorgen

[maus]

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by gareth evans
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

Use a systemd-free Linux distribution (Devuan comes to mind) and
do not install / start up those daemons that you don't need.
If you want a bare-bones window manager, use i3.

dwm. Cured my arm pain

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On 15 Sep 2020 18:52:18 GMT

Post by maus

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by gareth evans
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

Use a systemd-free Linux distribution (Devuan comes to mind) and
do not install / start up those daemons that you don't need.
If you want a bare-bones window manager, use i3.

dwm. Cured my arm pain

flwm yes ell not vee.

[Andreas Kohlbach]

Post by gareth evans
Having cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 with no OS, and thus
was in complete control of the machine, what I seek is an OS
that runs only the programs that I wish, and that does not
have shedloads of daemons and background processes that I did not
launch.
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

My thought was CP/M. It has printer support and GEM as GUI is
available. But the internet option might be a problem.

[gareth evans]

Post by Andreas Kohlbach

Post by gareth evans
Having cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 with no OS, and thus
was in complete control of the machine, what I seek is an OS
that runs only the programs that I wish, and that does not
have shedloads of daemons and background processes that I did not
launch.
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

My thought was CP/M. It has printer support and GEM as GUI is
available. But the internet option might be a problem.

ISTR (back in 1987) that GEM on the Amstrad 1512 was nobbut a
pictorial representation of a file directory.

However. CP/M to my memory is not multiprogrammed, so although
I would not want the law-unto-themmselves of numerous anonymous
Daemons and processes, I'd still want to control what happens in the
background

After prompting from another poster, I did look up Linux From Scratch
but it seems to be arse-about-face because you'd already need a complex
LINUX installation in order to create a simple one!

[Niklas Karlsson]

Post by gareth evans
However. CP/M to my memory is not multiprogrammed, so although
I would not want the law-unto-themmselves of numerous anonymous
Daemons and processes, I'd still want to control what happens in the
background

MP/M is multiprogrammed, but that probably still doesn't help you on the
matter of TCP/IP. Not sure about the GUI question either. Anyone?

Niklas

[gareth evans]

Post by Niklas Karlsson

Post by gareth evans
However. CP/M to my memory is not multiprogrammed, so although
I would not want the law-unto-themmselves of numerous anonymous
Daemons and processes, I'd still want to control what happens in the
background

MP/M is multiprogrammed, but that probably still doesn't help you on the
matter of TCP/IP. Not sure about the GUI question either. Anyone?

The graphical user interface and the world wide web are two
fantastic developments in the field of computing, but why
do they come with so much baggage dragging them down? Have we
forgotten the capabilities of simple OSs?

[Niklas Karlsson]

Post by gareth evans
The graphical user interface and the world wide web are two
fantastic developments in the field of computing, but why
do they come with so much baggage dragging them down? Have we
forgotten the capabilities of simple OSs?

Computers have gradually become more and more powerful and comparatively
cheaper. Software, like anything else, tends to expand to consume the
resources available, without necessarily providing greater utility in
proportion.

Niklas

[gareth evans]

Post by Niklas Karlsson

Post by gareth evans
The graphical user interface and the world wide web are two
fantastic developments in the field of computing, but why
do they come with so much baggage dragging them down? Have we
forgotten the capabilities of simple OSs?

Computers have gradually become more and more powerful and comparatively
cheaper. Software, like anything else, tends to expand to consume the
resources available, without necessarily providing greater utility in
proportion.

... which is where I came in! :-)

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On 14 Sep 2020 19:57:43 GMT

Post by Niklas Karlsson

Post by gareth evans
However. CP/M to my memory is not multiprogrammed, so although
I would not want the law-unto-themmselves of numerous anonymous
Daemons and processes, I'd still want to control what happens in the
background

MP/M is multiprogrammed, but that probably still doesn't help you on the
matter of TCP/IP. Not sure about the GUI question either. Anyone?

There are TCP/IP stacks for the Z80, and GEM for CP/M so it would
seem to be at least possible to arrange an internet connected MP/M box with
a GUI. A web browser with CSS and JavaScript is probably completely
impossible though.

[Chris]

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On 14 Sep 2020 19:57:43 GMT

Post by Niklas Karlsson

Post by gareth evans
However. CP/M to my memory is not multiprogrammed, so although
I would not want the law-unto-themmselves of numerous anonymous
Daemons and processes, I'd still want to control what happens in the
background

MP/M is multiprogrammed, but that probably still doesn't help you on the
matter of TCP/IP. Not sure about the GUI question either. Anyone?

There are TCP/IP stacks for the Z80, and GEM for CP/M so it would
seem to be at least possible to arrange an internet connected MP/M box with
a GUI. A web browser with CSS and JavaScript is probably completely
impossible though.

The older machines have neither the cpu power, nor the memory to support
a modern browser. The bloatware in modern os's is coming the gui,
primarily, with loads of gui applications layered on top of the basic
framework. That also needs os support, from networking, memory
management, security and much more.

So much more functionality from current systems that we could only dream
about 20 years ago, but there are different tradeoffs now...

Chris

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 22:57:14 +0100

Post by Chris

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On 14 Sep 2020 19:57:43 GMT

Post by Niklas Karlsson

Post by gareth evans
However. CP/M to my memory is not multiprogrammed, so although
I would not want the law-unto-themmselves of numerous anonymous
Daemons and processes, I'd still want to control what happens in the
background

MP/M is multiprogrammed, but that probably still doesn't help you on
the matter of TCP/IP. Not sure about the GUI question either. Anyone?

There are TCP/IP stacks for the Z80, and GEM for CP/M so it
would seem to be at least possible to arrange an internet connected
MP/M box with a GUI. A web browser with CSS and JavaScript is probably
completely impossible though.

The older machines have neither the cpu power, nor the memory to support
a modern browser. The bloatware in modern os's is coming the gui,

Oh sure, but I was contemplating a modern MP/M machine - take an
FPGA and a DDR4 RAM stick and you could probably run a hundred or more Z80A
equivalents each with 256K of bank switched RAM. Run MP/M on it like a giant
Micromation box. But even then I doubt a modern browser could be split into
enough small parts to make it work.

[Questor]

Post by Chris

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On 14 Sep 2020 19:57:43 GMT

Post by Niklas Karlsson

Post by gareth evans
However. CP/M to my memory is not multiprogrammed, so although
I would not want the law-unto-themmselves of numerous anonymous
Daemons and processes, I'd still want to control what happens in the
background

MP/M is multiprogrammed, but that probably still doesn't help you on the
matter of TCP/IP. Not sure about the GUI question either. Anyone?

There are TCP/IP stacks for the Z80, and GEM for CP/M so it would
seem to be at least possible to arrange an internet connected MP/M box with
a GUI. A web browser with CSS and JavaScript is probably completely
impossible though.

The older machines have neither the cpu power, nor the memory to support
a modern browser. The bloatware in modern os's is coming the gui,

Sorry, I have to disagree. See my other post about Geoworks. Older machines
have plenty enough horsepower and memory to run a modern browser, if it was
coded efficiently. That current software isn't so written is in part because of
the idea that with so much CPU and memory available, it isn't necesary.

[Bob Eager]

Having cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 with no OS, and thus was in
complete control of the machine, what I seek is an OS that runs only
the programs that I wish, and that does not have shedloads of daemons
and background processes that I did not launch.
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

My thought was CP/M. It has printer support and GEM as GUI is available.
But the internet option might be a problem.

Surely it's bloated if it has a GUI? I used UNIX for years before it had
a GUI.

[Andreas Kohlbach]

Post by Bob Eager

Having cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 with no OS, and thus was in
complete control of the machine, what I seek is an OS that runs only
the programs that I wish, and that does not have shedloads of daemons
and background processes that I did not launch.
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

My thought was CP/M. It has printer support and GEM as GUI is available.
But the internet option might be a problem.

Surely it's bloated if it has a GUI? I used UNIX for years before it had
a GUI.

A GUI, however small in memory, might be too much for a PDP11 anyway. No
matter what OS it's running.

I mentioned CP/M because it should be appropriate for older machines.

[Peter Flass]

Post by Andreas Kohlbach

Post by Bob Eager

Having cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 with no OS, and thus was in
complete control of the machine, what I seek is an OS that runs only
the programs that I wish, and that does not have shedloads of daemons
and background processes that I did not launch.
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

My thought was CP/M. It has printer support and GEM as GUI is available.
But the internet option might be a problem.

Surely it's bloated if it has a GUI? I used UNIX for years before it had
a GUI.

A GUI, however small in memory, might be too much for a PDP11 anyway. No
matter what OS it's running.

The Alto had a minimum of 128K bytes (64K words, I think) and should have
been about the same class of machine as an -11.

[Questor]

Post by gareth evans
Having cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 with no OS, and thus
was in complete control of the machine, what I seek is an OS
that runs only the programs that I wish, and that does not
have shedloads of daemons and background processes that I did not
launch.
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

More of Gareth's old whine in new bottles... you sure do like to ramble on and
on about how you started on a naked PDP11, Grandad. Did you also have to walk
ten miles through the snow, uphill and against the wind both ways, to get to
school?

What's wrong with all those background processes? Gotta keep all those cores
doing sumthin'.

Since you like to brag so much about how you "did it all back in the day," why
aren't you doing it now with current hardware? The components are readily
available at just about any level you care to chose. Assemble a machine and
write the Next Great Operating System.

As for the rest of us...

I do not want to raise, slaughter, and butcher my own livestock, grow all my own
vegetables and grain, or bake my own bread.

I do not want to grow my own cotton, weave my own cloth, or sew my own clothes.

I do not want to mine my own ore, smelt my own metal, fashion my own parts, or
build my own car.

And, like most people...

I do not want to design my own hardware, write my own microcode, kernel, OS, or
most applications.

Getting off your lawn now...

[gareth evans]

Post by Questor
More of Gareth's old whine in new bottles... you sure do like to ramble on and
on about how you started on a naked PDP11, Grandad. Did you also have to walk
ten miles through the snow, uphill and against the wind both ways, to get to
school?

Grandad?

Grow up, Sonny!

Did you get out of bed on the wrong side this morning?

[gareth evans]

Post by Questor
I do not want to raise, slaughter, and butcher my own livestock, grow all my own
vegetables and grain, or bake my own bread.
I do not want to grow my own cotton, weave my own cloth, or sew my own clothes.
I do not want to mine my own ore, smelt my own metal, fashion my own parts, or
build my own car.
I do not want to design my own hardware, write my own microcode, kernel, OS, or
most applications.

A non-technical red-necked consumer from hoi polloi, perhaps?

[Niklas Karlsson]

Post by gareth evans

Post by Questor
I do not want to raise, slaughter, and butcher my own livestock, grow all my own
vegetables and grain, or bake my own bread.
I do not want to grow my own cotton, weave my own cloth, or sew my own clothes.
I do not want to mine my own ore, smelt my own metal, fashion my own parts, or
build my own car.
I do not want to design my own hardware, write my own microcode, kernel, OS, or
most applications.

A non-technical red-necked consumer from hoi polloi, perhaps?

I think it's safe to say Questor is anything but non-technical.

My sentiment is not dissimilar to his. I'm a young'un in this froup, but
I've still worked in computing for 20 years by now. At the early stages,
I loved to tinker with all the details. I never wrote an OS from the
ground up or anything like that, but still much more low-level tinkering
than a great deal of people would ever want to do.

It gave me a good background in how things work deep down, which is
useful, but these days I really can't be bothered to grovel in low-level
details all the time. Plus if I insisted on doing that every time I had
to solve a problem, I'd likely be out of a job. These days I usually
want things to Just Work, so I can focus on what currently doesn't.

Niklas

[gareth evans]

Post by Niklas Karlsson

Post by gareth evans

Post by Questor
I do not want to raise, slaughter, and butcher my own livestock, grow all my own
vegetables and grain, or bake my own bread.
I do not want to grow my own cotton, weave my own cloth, or sew my own clothes.
I do not want to mine my own ore, smelt my own metal, fashion my own parts, or
build my own car.
I do not want to design my own hardware, write my own microcode, kernel, OS, or
most applications.

A non-technical red-necked consumer from hoi polloi, perhaps?

I think it's safe to say Questor is anything but non-technical.
My sentiment is not dissimilar to his. I'm a young'un in this froup, but
I've still worked in computing for 20 years by now. At the early stages,
I loved to tinker with all the details. I never wrote an OS from the
ground up or anything like that, but still much more low-level tinkering
than a great deal of people would ever want to do.
It gave me a good background in how things work deep down, which is
useful, but these days I really can't be bothered to grovel in low-level
details all the time. Plus if I insisted on doing that every time I had
to solve a problem, I'd likely be out of a job. These days I usually
want things to Just Work, so I can focus on what currently doesn't.

My background, and the folklore associated with it, is in low-level
intimate contact with computers. Computers are there to be appreciated
for their beauty as complex machines, and not necessarily there to be
used for any practical purpose :-)

But, in response to Questor and other contributors of a similar bent,
if you dislike my contributions to this NG, then investigate the
concept of Kill Files, and you won't have to suffer any further.

[Andy Leighton]

On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 12:34:17 +0100,

Post by gareth evans
My background, and the folklore associated with it, is in low-level
intimate contact with computers.

Intimate contact? Is that like the Suffolk man who was arrested for
public indecency and admitted having sex with 450 tractors?

[Peter Flass]

Post by gareth evans

Post by Questor
I do not want to raise, slaughter, and butcher my own livestock, grow all my own
vegetables and grain, or bake my own bread.
I do not want to grow my own cotton, weave my own cloth, or sew my own clothes.
I do not want to mine my own ore, smelt my own metal, fashion my own parts, or
build my own car.
I do not want to design my own hardware, write my own microcode, kernel, OS, or
most applications.

A non-technical red-necked consumer from hoi polloi, perhaps?

I have to agree with him. Lots of things were fun in olden days because 1)
That was all,the hardware and software we had to work with. 2) It was
exciting doing something for the first time, and challenging to get it to
fit. Sometimes I think back to the 1130 I loved of the Altair I wanted to
own; I could now run emulators for them, but what’s the point? Most of what
you could do with them has been done and we’ve moved on. The fun now is
writing the emulator.

I still enjoy developing software, but I don’t want to have to worry about
the platform I’m developing on. If I have to spend time installing and
customizing software or whatever it’s not productive in terms if what I
want to get done.

[Andreas Kohlbach]

Post by Peter Flass
I have to agree with him. Lots of things were fun in olden days because 1)
That was all,the hardware and software we had to work with. 2) It was
exciting doing something for the first time, and challenging to get it to
fit.

:-)

Post by Peter Flass
Sometimes I think back to the 1130 I loved of the Altair I wanted to
own; I could now run emulators for them, but what’s the point? Most of
what you could do with them has been done and we’ve moved on. The fun
now is writing the emulator.

Not owning any vintage hardware an emulator helps me to explore things I
missed in the past.

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by gareth evans

Post by Questor
I do not want to raise, slaughter, and butcher my own livestock, grow all my own
vegetables and grain, or bake my own bread.
I do not want to grow my own cotton, weave my own cloth, or sew my own clothes.
I do not want to mine my own ore, smelt my own metal, fashion my own parts, or
build my own car.
I do not want to design my own hardware, write my own microcode, kernel, OS, or
most applications.

A non-technical red-necked consumer from hoi polloi, perhaps?

Insults and namecalling aren't helpful.

[gareth evans]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by gareth evans

Post by Questor
I do not want to raise, slaughter, and butcher my own livestock, grow all my own
vegetables and grain, or bake my own bread.
I do not want to grow my own cotton, weave my own cloth, or sew my own clothes.
I do not want to mine my own ore, smelt my own metal, fashion my own parts, or
build my own car.
I do not want to design my own hardware, write my own microcode, kernel, OS, or
most applications.

A non-technical red-necked consumer from hoi polloi, perhaps?

Insults and namecalling aren't helpful.

You were happy for the insults from the previous poster?

I merely responded in kind.

However, yes, life's too short!

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by gareth evans

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by gareth evans

Post by Questor
I do not want to raise, slaughter, and butcher my own livestock, grow all my own
vegetables and grain, or bake my own bread.
I do not want to grow my own cotton, weave my own cloth, or sew my own clothes.
I do not want to mine my own ore, smelt my own metal, fashion my own parts, or
build my own car.
I do not want to design my own hardware, write my own microcode, kernel, OS, or
most applications.

A non-technical red-necked consumer from hoi polloi, perhaps?

Insults and namecalling aren't helpful.

You were happy for the insults from the previous poster?

What insults?

The previous poster has a long history of productive and informative
posts.

Post by gareth evans
I merely responded in kind.

You have a long history of provocative and often unpleasant posts.

[gareth evans]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by gareth evans

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by gareth evans

Post by Questor
I do not want to raise, slaughter, and butcher my own livestock, grow all my own
vegetables and grain, or bake my own bread.
I do not want to grow my own cotton, weave my own cloth, or sew my own clothes.
I do not want to mine my own ore, smelt my own metal, fashion my own parts, or
build my own car.
I do not want to design my own hardware, write my own microcode, kernel, OS, or
most applications.

A non-technical red-necked consumer from hoi polloi, perhaps?

Insults and namecalling aren't helpful.

You were happy for the insults from the previous poster?

What insults?

Read his post. YMMV.

Post by Scott Lurndal
The previous poster has a long history of productive and informative
posts.

Irrelevant.

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by gareth evans
I merely responded in kind.

You have a long history of provocative and often unpleasant posts.

Untrue. What was that you said that insults aren't helpful?

[Questor]

Post by gareth evans

Post by Questor
I do not want to raise, slaughter, and butcher my own livestock, grow all my own
vegetables and grain, or bake my own bread.
I do not want to grow my own cotton, weave my own cloth, or sew my own clothes.
I do not want to mine my own ore, smelt my own metal, fashion my own parts, or
build my own car.
I do not want to design my own hardware, write my own microcode, kernel, OS, or
most applications.

A non-technical red-necked consumer from hoi polloi, perhaps?

I have no need to re-create the wheel.

You've got a pretty thin skin to be hanging out in this newsgroup, Buck-o.

You mention your early PDP-11 experience in practically every second post. At
this point it's just bragging.

Yeah, we get it. You're a dinosaur, just like the rest of us. Get on with it,
or at least come up with a new, more interesting whine.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 20:31:50 GMT

Post by Questor

Post by gareth evans
A non-technical red-necked consumer from hoi polloi, perhaps?

You mention your early PDP-11 experience in practically every second
post. At this point it's just bragging.

Some good war stories from it would go down well though.

[gareth evans]

Post by Questor

Post by gareth evans

Post by Questor
I do not want to raise, slaughter, and butcher my own livestock, grow all my own
vegetables and grain, or bake my own bread.
I do not want to grow my own cotton, weave my own cloth, or sew my own clothes.
I do not want to mine my own ore, smelt my own metal, fashion my own parts, or
build my own car.
I do not want to design my own hardware, write my own microcode, kernel, OS, or
most applications.

A non-technical red-necked consumer from hoi polloi, perhaps?

I have no need to re-create the wheel.
You've got a pretty thin skin to be hanging out in this newsgroup, Buck-o.
You mention your early PDP-11 experience in practically every second post. At
this point it's just bragging.
Yeah, we get it. You're a dinosaur, just like the rest of us. Get on with it,
or at least come up with a new, more interesting whine.

You seem to be spoiling for a fight, but I am not.

[Bob Eager]

On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 10:57:12 +0100, gareth evans

Having cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 with no OS, and thus was in
complete control of the machine, what I seek is an OS that runs only the
programs that I wish, and that does not have shedloads of daemons and
background processes that I did not launch.
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

More of Gareth's old whine in new bottles... you sure do like to ramble
on and on about how you started on a naked PDP11, Grandad. Did you also
have to walk ten miles through the snow, uphill and against the wind
both ways,
to get to school?
What's wrong with all those background processes? Gotta keep all those
cores doing sumthin'.
Since you like to brag so much about how you "did it all back in the
day,"
why aren't you doing it now with current hardware? The components are
readily available at just about any level you care to chose. Assemble a
machine and write the Next Great Operating System.

Hear hear. And I am far from non-technical.

[gareth evans]

Post by Bob Eager

On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 10:57:12 +0100, gareth evans

Having cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 with no OS, and thus was in
complete control of the machine, what I seek is an OS that runs only the
programs that I wish, and that does not have shedloads of daemons and
background processes that I did not launch.
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

More of Gareth's old whine in new bottles... you sure do like to ramble
on and on about how you started on a naked PDP11, Grandad. Did you also
have to walk ten miles through the snow, uphill and against the wind
both ways,
to get to school?
What's wrong with all those background processes? Gotta keep all those
cores doing sumthin'.
Since you like to brag so much about how you "did it all back in the
day,"
why aren't you doing it now with current hardware? The components are
readily available at just about any level you care to chose. Assemble a
machine and write the Next Great Operating System.

Hear hear. And I am far from non-technical.

This is a NG about folklore, and that is what I discuss; history.

[Dan Espen]

Post by Questor
What's wrong with all those background processes? Gotta keep all
those cores doing sumthin'.

I was waiting for this thread to turn sensible.

All this bull about "bloat" was getting boring.

I'm running with 2GB Ram and barely put it all to use. Just looked, if
I wanted to add 4 GB that would be $18.99 US.

Last time I looked at services running I didn't need, I quickly found I
was wasting my time. Most of them were barely using CPU or memory and
they were performing useful functions.

So, with my new RGB keyboard I started with a command line utility but
started to find the command syntax challenging. The same package
(libratbag) comes with a GUI (piper). Saved me a lot of time.

I used to unload photos from my devices using my own command line tools.
I got tired of typing long commands and folder names and wrote my own
GUIto drive the process. Now I'm down to the bare minimum of
keystrokes for the process.

[J. Clarke]

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Questor
What's wrong with all those background processes? Gotta keep all
those cores doing sumthin'.

I was waiting for this thread to turn sensible.
All this bull about "bloat" was getting boring.
I'm running with 2GB Ram and barely put it all to use. Just looked, if
I wanted to add 4 GB that would be $18.99 US.
Last time I looked at services running I didn't need, I quickly found I
was wasting my time. Most of them were barely using CPU or memory and
they were performing useful functions.
So, with my new RGB keyboard I started with a command line utility but
started to find the command syntax challenging. The same package
(libratbag) comes with a GUI (piper). Saved me a lot of time.
I used to unload photos from my devices using my own command line tools.
I got tired of typing long commands and folder names and wrote my own
GUIto drive the process. Now I'm down to the bare minimum of
keystrokes for the process.

But still, the new phone I have on order would have been a large
supercomputer shop in the '70s.

[Dan Espen]

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Questor
What's wrong with all those background processes? Gotta keep all
those cores doing sumthin'.

I was waiting for this thread to turn sensible.
All this bull about "bloat" was getting boring.
I'm running with 2GB Ram and barely put it all to use. Just looked, if
I wanted to add 4 GB that would be $18.99 US.
Last time I looked at services running I didn't need, I quickly found I
was wasting my time. Most of them were barely using CPU or memory and
they were performing useful functions.
So, with my new RGB keyboard I started with a command line utility but
started to find the command syntax challenging. The same package
(libratbag) comes with a GUI (piper). Saved me a lot of time.
I used to unload photos from my devices using my own command line tools.
I got tired of typing long commands and folder names and wrote my own
GUIto drive the process. Now I'm down to the bare minimum of
keystrokes for the process.

But still, the new phone I have on order would have been a large
supercomputer shop in the '70s.

What did you order? My S5 is overdue for a replacement.
I mainly use it for driving and photos/movies.

[J. Clarke]

Post by Dan Espen

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Questor
What's wrong with all those background processes? Gotta keep all
those cores doing sumthin'.

I was waiting for this thread to turn sensible.
All this bull about "bloat" was getting boring.
I'm running with 2GB Ram and barely put it all to use. Just looked, if
I wanted to add 4 GB that would be $18.99 US.
Last time I looked at services running I didn't need, I quickly found I
was wasting my time. Most of them were barely using CPU or memory and
they were performing useful functions.
So, with my new RGB keyboard I started with a command line utility but
started to find the command syntax challenging. The same package
(libratbag) comes with a GUI (piper). Saved me a lot of time.
I used to unload photos from my devices using my own command line tools.
I got tired of typing long commands and folder names and wrote my own
GUIto drive the process. Now I'm down to the bare minimum of
keystrokes for the process.

But still, the new phone I have on order would have been a large
supercomputer shop in the '70s.

What did you order? My S5 is overdue for a replacement.
I mainly use it for driving and photos/movies.

Galaxy Note S20 Ultra with half a terabyte. I like being able to
scribble.

I'm hoping that it will actually give me reliable reception, which my
5 year old cheap ZTE doesn't. That's becoming an issue because work
wants to authenticate to a phone instead of using a token going
forward. Everything I'm reading says that the Galaxy Notes are
particularly good in that regard and if I'm spending that much anyway
I may as well get all the bells and whistles.

It's gross overkill for my needs, but . . .

[Dan Espen]

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Questor
What's wrong with all those background processes? Gotta keep all
those cores doing sumthin'.

I was waiting for this thread to turn sensible.
All this bull about "bloat" was getting boring.
I'm running with 2GB Ram and barely put it all to use. Just looked, if
I wanted to add 4 GB that would be $18.99 US.
Last time I looked at services running I didn't need, I quickly found I
was wasting my time. Most of them were barely using CPU or memory and
they were performing useful functions.
So, with my new RGB keyboard I started with a command line utility but
started to find the command syntax challenging. The same package
(libratbag) comes with a GUI (piper). Saved me a lot of time.
I used to unload photos from my devices using my own command line tools.
I got tired of typing long commands and folder names and wrote my own
GUIto drive the process. Now I'm down to the bare minimum of
keystrokes for the process.

But still, the new phone I have on order would have been a large
supercomputer shop in the '70s.

What did you order? My S5 is overdue for a replacement.
I mainly use it for driving and photos/movies.

Galaxy Note S20 Ultra with half a terabyte. I like being able to
scribble.
I'm hoping that it will actually give me reliable reception, which my
5 year old cheap ZTE doesn't. That's becoming an issue because work
wants to authenticate to a phone instead of using a token going
forward. Everything I'm reading says that the Galaxy Notes are
particularly good in that regard and if I'm spending that much anyway
I may as well get all the bells and whistles.
It's gross overkill for my needs, but . . .

Thanks.

Not sure I want something that large.
My current phone is 5.5 x 2.3.
That thing is 6.48 x 3.04.

Just looked around, the S10e is supposed to be their small phone,
5.9 x 2.75.

Not impressed.
I might be changing brands.

[J. Clarke]

Post by Dan Espen

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Questor
What's wrong with all those background processes? Gotta keep all
those cores doing sumthin'.

I was waiting for this thread to turn sensible.
All this bull about "bloat" was getting boring.
I'm running with 2GB Ram and barely put it all to use. Just looked, if
I wanted to add 4 GB that would be $18.99 US.
Last time I looked at services running I didn't need, I quickly found I
was wasting my time. Most of them were barely using CPU or memory and
they were performing useful functions.
So, with my new RGB keyboard I started with a command line utility but
started to find the command syntax challenging. The same package
(libratbag) comes with a GUI (piper). Saved me a lot of time.
I used to unload photos from my devices using my own command line tools.
I got tired of typing long commands and folder names and wrote my own
GUIto drive the process. Now I'm down to the bare minimum of
keystrokes for the process.

But still, the new phone I have on order would have been a large
supercomputer shop in the '70s.

What did you order? My S5 is overdue for a replacement.
I mainly use it for driving and photos/movies.

Galaxy Note S20 Ultra with half a terabyte. I like being able to
scribble.
I'm hoping that it will actually give me reliable reception, which my
5 year old cheap ZTE doesn't. That's becoming an issue because work
wants to authenticate to a phone instead of using a token going
forward. Everything I'm reading says that the Galaxy Notes are
particularly good in that regard and if I'm spending that much anyway
I may as well get all the bells and whistles.
It's gross overkill for my needs, but . . .

Thanks.
Not sure I want something that large.
My current phone is 5.5 x 2.3.
That thing is 6.48 x 3.04.
Just looked around, the S10e is supposed to be their small phone,
5.9 x 2.75.
Not impressed.
I might be changing brands.

My current one is 5.8 x 2.8. The new one is taller but not that much
wider.

[Timothy McCaffrey]

I like my Palm: 2" x 3.8". Not great for a smartphone (camera is ok, screen is small) but it does all the things a smartphone needs to do.
Doesn't do hotspot, if that is important to you.
If you get it on sale with the juicepack it is a pretty good value. (I think).

- Tim

[f6k]

Post by Timothy McCaffrey
I like my Palm: 2" x 3.8". Not great for a smartphone (camera is ok,
screen is small) but it does all the things a smartphone needs to do.
Doesn't do hotspot, if that is important to you. If you get it on
sale with the juicepack it is a pretty good value. (I think).
- Tim

i'm quite interested by this phone but they say that the battery is
quite weak (800mAh if i'm not wrong) and that it's hard to make it the
entire day (even while using it for small tasks, phoning and
messaging). what is your experience around that?

-f6k

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by f6k

Post by Timothy McCaffrey
I like my Palm: 2" x 3.8". Not great for a smartphone (camera is ok,
screen is small) but it does all the things a smartphone needs to do.
Doesn't do hotspot, if that is important to you. If you get it on
sale with the juicepack it is a pretty good value. (I think).
- Tim

i'm quite interested by this phone but they say that the battery is
quite weak (800mAh if i'm not wrong) and that it's hard to make it the
entire day (even while using it for small tasks, phoning and
messaging). what is your experience around that?

Which is why, I suspect, that he said "with the juicepack", which
is an auxillary battery pack.

[f6k]

Post by Scott Lurndal
Which is why, I suspect, that he said "with the juicepack", which
is an auxillary battery pack.

yes, but i found an opportunity without the juicepack, that's why i'm
still asking the question :)

-f6k

[Timothy McCaffrey]

Post by f6k

I like my Palm: 2" x 3.8". Not great for a smartphone (camera is ok,
screen is small) but it does all the things a smartphone needs to do.
Doesn't do hotspot, if that is important to you. If you get it on
sale with the juicepack it is a pretty good value. (I think).
- Tim

i'm quite interested by this phone but they say that the battery is
quite weak (800mAh if i'm not wrong) and that it's hard to make it the
entire day (even while using it for small tasks, phoning and
messaging). what is your experience around that?
-f6k
--
~{,_,"> indignus LabRat - ftp://shl.huld.re

I don't usually run SmartPhone things (games, etc.) all that much. For things that drain the power (like navigation) I'm usually in the car and hook it up to the power plug(or I'm listening to an audio book, ditto). I do have a hiking app that loves to suck power (even when I'm not using it) and sometimes that causes an issue (and the phone notifies me that it is suck power and I can "force stop" it). I can usually (99% of the time) get through a whole day. There are times I have had to invoke the juice pack, which can charge it to about 80% from a dead battery. Since the juice pack also acts as a case, and the phone is so small to begin with, to me it is not a problem. (In fact, I think Palm could market a thicker version that just has a bigger battery and find a market).

I also don't make a lot of phone calls or do texting, so YMMV. OTOH, it charges pretty fast as well. If you drain the juice pack, when you hook up the charge cable the juice pack makes sure the phone is re-charged first, then it switches to charging itself.

With the juice pack it is almost exactly the same size (in all dimensions) as a Samsung Gravity III (not a Galaxy!). I do miss that slide out keyboard....
(The Gravity III lost its mind when the GPS clocks rolled over :( )

Occasionally, Palm has sales, and sale packages. I basically got the juice pack for "free". Or you can get it from Verizon.

- Tim

[f6k]

Post by Timothy McCaffrey
I don't usually run SmartPhone things (games, etc.) all that much.
For things that drain the power (like navigation) I'm usually in the
car and hook it up to the power plug(or I'm listening to an audio
book, ditto). I do have a hiking app that loves to suck power (even
when I'm not using it) and sometimes that causes an issue (and the
phone notifies me that it is suck power and I can "force stop" it).
I can usually (99% of the time) get through a whole day. There are
times I have had to invoke the juice pack, which can charge it to
about 80% from a dead battery. Since the juice pack also acts as a
case, and the phone is so small to begin with, to me it is not a
problem. (In fact, I think Palm could market a thicker version that
just has a bigger battery and find a market).
I also don't make a lot of phone calls or do texting, so YMMV. OTOH,
it charges pretty fast as well. If you drain the juice pack, when
you hook up the charge cable the juice pack makes sure the phone is
re-charged first, then it switches to charging itself.

ok, thank you very much Tim.

Post by Timothy McCaffrey
With the juice pack it is almost exactly the same size (in all
dimensions) as a Samsung Gravity III (not a Galaxy!). I do miss that
slide out keyboard.... (The Gravity III lost its mind when the GPS
clocks rolled over :( )
Occasionally, Palm has sales, and sale packages. I basically got the
juice pack for "free". Or you can get it from Verizon.

actually i found it without the juicepack; still, i do own a powerbank.
but i was wondering if i could take the day as it is (my powerbank is
much larger than the phone). it seems you have little needs of your
phone, like i do, but the juicepack is a thing to have. again, thank
you for your feedback.

-f6k

[Timothy McCaffrey]

Post by f6k

Post by Timothy McCaffrey
I don't usually run SmartPhone things (games, etc.) all that much.
For things that drain the power (like navigation) I'm usually in the
car and hook it up to the power plug(or I'm listening to an audio
book, ditto). I do have a hiking app that loves to suck power (even
when I'm not using it) and sometimes that causes an issue (and the
phone notifies me that it is suck power and I can "force stop" it).
I can usually (99% of the time) get through a whole day. There are
times I have had to invoke the juice pack, which can charge it to
about 80% from a dead battery. Since the juice pack also acts as a
case, and the phone is so small to begin with, to me it is not a
problem. (In fact, I think Palm could market a thicker version that
just has a bigger battery and find a market).
I also don't make a lot of phone calls or do texting, so YMMV. OTOH,
it charges pretty fast as well. If you drain the juice pack, when
you hook up the charge cable the juice pack makes sure the phone is
re-charged first, then it switches to charging itself.

ok, thank you very much Tim.

Post by Timothy McCaffrey
With the juice pack it is almost exactly the same size (in all
dimensions) as a Samsung Gravity III (not a Galaxy!). I do miss that
slide out keyboard.... (The Gravity III lost its mind when the GPS
clocks rolled over :( )
Occasionally, Palm has sales, and sale packages. I basically got the
juice pack for "free". Or you can get it from Verizon.

actually i found it without the juicepack; still, i do own a powerbank.
but i was wondering if i could take the day as it is (my powerbank is
much larger than the phone). it seems you have little needs of your
phone, like i do, but the juicepack is a thing to have. again, thank
you for your feedback.
-f6k
--
~{,_,"> indignus LabRat - ftp://shl.huld.re

Just FYI: Palm is having a bundle sale: Phone & Juicepack for $299.

- Tim

[maus]

Post by Timothy McCaffrey
I like my Palm: 2" x 3.8". Not great for a smartphone (camera is ok, screen is small) but it does all the things a smartphone needs to do.
Doesn't do hotspot, if that is important to you.
If you get it on sale with the juicepack it is a pretty good value. (I think).
- Tim
I had a sharp zaurus, wonderful thing for its time, (pre-internet)
and saw others using them at meetings, etc, but the main battery
died, and I could not replace it. Nostalgia, I suppose.

[J. Clarke]

Post by Timothy McCaffrey
I like my Palm: 2" x 3.8". Not great for a smartphone (camera is ok, screen is small) but it does all the things a smartphone needs to do.
Doesn't do hotspot, if that is important to you.
If you get it on sale with the juicepack it is a pretty good value. (I think).
- Tim
I had a sharp zaurus, wonderful thing for its time, (pre-internet)
and saw others using them at meetings, etc, but the main battery
died, and I could not replace it. Nostalgia, I suppose.

I had a Sony Clie--wonderful machine for its time. It took a long
time for smartphones to reach the same functionality level.

[Questor]

Post by J. Clarke
But still, the new phone I have on order would have been a large
supercomputer shop in the '70s.

Heh. I got this image of a raised-floor, air-conditioned computer room, filled
with spinning disk and tape drives, chattering line printers, and the like.
Operators coming and going, mounting tapes, bursting listings, etc. In the
center of all this frenzied activity on a long table, running the whole show, is
a smart phone with a single USB cable snaking from it.

[Charlie Gibbs]

Post by Questor

Post by J. Clarke
But still, the new phone I have on order would have been a large
supercomputer shop in the '70s.

Heh. I got this image of a raised-floor, air-conditioned computer room,
filled with spinning disk and tape drives, chattering line printers, and
the like. Operators coming and going, mounting tapes, bursting listings,
etc. In the center of all this frenzied activity on a long table, running
the whole show, is a smart phone with a single USB cable snaking from it.

Nah, it'll use a wi-fi connection to a router hidden in one of the cabinets.

Everything will run just fine until the phone's battery dies...

[J. Clarke]

Post by Charlie Gibbs

Post by Questor

Post by J. Clarke
But still, the new phone I have on order would have been a large
supercomputer shop in the '70s.

Heh. I got this image of a raised-floor, air-conditioned computer room,
filled with spinning disk and tape drives, chattering line printers, and
the like. Operators coming and going, mounting tapes, bursting listings,
etc. In the center of all this frenzied activity on a long table, running
the whole show, is a smart phone with a single USB cable snaking from it.

Nah, it'll use a wi-fi connection to a router hidden in one of the cabinets.
Everything will run just fine until the phone's battery dies...

Just remember that that phone has the equivalent of 5,000 3330s in it,
so much of that storage would be redundant, unless perhaps you're
using it for backup.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 21:14:06 -0400

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Charlie Gibbs

On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 08:29:24 -0400, J. Clarke <jclarke.

Post by J. Clarke
But still, the new phone I have on order would have been a large
supercomputer shop in the '70s.

Heh. I got this image of a raised-floor, air-conditioned computer
room, filled with spinning disk and tape drives, chattering line
printers, and the like. Operators coming and going, mounting tapes,
bursting listings, etc. In the center of all this frenzied activity
on a long table, running the whole show, is a smart phone with a
single USB cable snaking from it.

Nah, it'll use a wi-fi connection to a router hidden in one of the cabinets.
Everything will run just fine until the phone's battery dies...

Just remember that that phone has the equivalent of 5,000 3330s in it,
so much of that storage would be redundant, unless perhaps you're
using it for backup.

Yeah no disk packs but if the phone is doing DP work then the tapes
might be the data feeds and reports to external systems. You'd need a lot of
tape drives going flat out to keep that phone busy, it could also drive a
ridiculous number of 1403s with suitable interfacing (channel boxes with
wifi dongles perhaps).

[Charlie Gibbs]

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Charlie Gibbs

Post by Questor

Post by J. Clarke
But still, the new phone I have on order would have been a large
supercomputer shop in the '70s.

Heh. I got this image of a raised-floor, air-conditioned computer room,
filled with spinning disk and tape drives, chattering line printers, and
the like. Operators coming and going, mounting tapes, bursting listings,
etc. In the center of all this frenzied activity on a long table, running
the whole show, is a smart phone with a single USB cable snaking from it.

Nah, it'll use a wi-fi connection to a router hidden in one of the cabinets.
Everything will run just fine until the phone's battery dies...

Just remember that that phone has the equivalent of 5,000 3330s in it,
so much of that storage would be redundant, unless perhaps you're
using it for backup.

That reminds me of the one I saw in rec.humor.funny years ago.
Someone mentioned an article about miniaturization which stated
that soon you'd have a 3090 in your wristwatch. "Great," our guy
observed, "you can boot MVS on it and the first thing it'll do is
ask you the time."

[Bob Eager]

That reminds me of the one I saw in rec.humor.funny years ago. Someone
mentioned an article about miniaturization which stated that soon you'd
have a 3090 in your wristwatch. "Great," our guy observed, "you can
boot MVS on it and the first thing it'll do is ask you the time."

I ran VAX/VMS on my phone, some years ago. Someone had ported SIMH, but
then it broke becuase it depended on some other broken app.

[J. Clarke]

Post by Bob Eager

That reminds me of the one I saw in rec.humor.funny years ago. Someone
mentioned an article about miniaturization which stated that soon you'd
have a 3090 in your wristwatch. "Great," our guy observed, "you can
boot MVS on it and the first thing it'll do is ask you the time."

I ran VAX/VMS on my phone, some years ago. Someone had ported SIMH, but
then it broke becuase it depended on some other broken app.

I understand that it actually is possible to run Z/OS on an iPhone.
There hasn't been an Android port of Hercules though, at least none
that I can find.

[Jorgen Grahn]

On Tue, 2020-09-15, Dan Espen wrote:
...

Post by Dan Espen
I used to unload photos from my devices using my own command line tools.
I got tired of typing long commands and folder names and wrote my own
GUIto drive the process. Now I'm down to the bare minimum of
keystrokes for the process.

Another option is to use a shell with searchable history (bash, tcsh,
zsh). My command line for doing that is

mount /camera && \
rsync -av /camera/dcim/1??_pana/ ~/photo/tmp/ && \
umount /camera

And I type ^Rrsync<RET> to run it, because typically my most recent
rsync invocation was when I did this last time.

/Jorgen

[songbird]

Post by gareth evans
Having cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 with no OS, and thus
was in complete control of the machine, what I seek is an OS
that runs only the programs that I wish, and that does not
have shedloads of daemons and background processes that I did not
launch.
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

i've been using debian for quite a long time and you can
install that as a server and then add whatever window
environment you want on top of it.

my current system does use systemd, but i have a lot of
stuff masked because i don't use it.

there are ways of using debian and not having large parts
of systemd, but i don't really care as long as it works and
currently it does so i leave it alone.

my desktop is MATE and that is pretty simple and does what
i want it to do. lightdm is the desktop manager i like.

there are plenty of other windowin environments out there
though i just haven't really cared to get that much into
looking for something else when what i have is working.

years ago the Gnome desktop was what i liked and then it
went crazy with things i didn't like so i switched to kde
and then kde did the same thing so i ended up finding MATE
and have stuck with that since then.

not sure this is the answer you were after, but that's
what's up with me.


songbird

[Peter Flass]

Post by songbird

Post by gareth evans
Having cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 with no OS, and thus
was in complete control of the machine, what I seek is an OS
that runs only the programs that I wish, and that does not
have shedloads of daemons and background processes that I did not
launch.
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

i've been using debian for quite a long time and you can
install that as a server and then add whatever window
environment you want on top of it.
my current system does use systemd, but i have a lot of
stuff masked because i don't use it.
there are ways of using debian and not having large parts
of systemd, but i don't really care as long as it works and
currently it does so i leave it alone.
my desktop is MATE and that is pretty simple and does what
i want it to do. lightdm is the desktop manager i like.
there are plenty of other windowin environments out there
though i just haven't really cared to get that much into
looking for something else when what i have is working.
years ago the Gnome desktop was what i liked and then it
went crazy with things i didn't like so i switched to kde
and then kde did the same thing so i ended up finding MATE
and have stuck with that since then.

Me too. I hear Cinnamon is pretty good, too, but I have no reason to try to
find out.

Post by songbird
not sure this is the answer you were after, but that's
what's up with me.
songbird

[songbird]

Peter Flass wrote:
...

Post by Peter Flass
Me too. I hear Cinnamon is pretty good, too, but I have no reason to try to
find out.

i must admit i do pine for the good ol' days when i
was programming on the Univac and only had the few
devices to cope with. :) the assembler language
spoiled me for anything else.

eventually i later on became the system programmer
for that machine as they were trying to get rid of it
and eventually did replace it. i never knew or planned
to get that involved.

the conversion was fun, to a mini-computer, once that
was winding down was when i finally left after being
there for 15yrs.

so from my little corner project off to the side of
the larger programs i was able to observe the full life
cycle of my program going from inception to then
eventually being replaced.

i have no idea what hardware they're running on these
days. hard to believe i've almost been gone from there
for almost 25yrs. seems like just yesterday... :)


songbird

[Jorgen Grahn]

On Tue, 2020-09-15, songbird wrote:
...

Post by songbird
my desktop is MATE and that is pretty simple and does what
i want it to do. lightdm is the desktop manager i like.
there are plenty of other windowin environments out there
though i just haven't really cared to get that much into
looking for something else when what i have is working.
years ago the Gnome desktop was what i liked and then it
went crazy with things i didn't like so i switched to kde
and then kde did the same thing so i ended up finding MATE
and have stuck with that since then.

That's why I have no desktop environment -- there's nothing the UI
enthusiasts can change. (Unless they deem X11 itself obsolete; then
I would be in trouble.)

My screen has looked the same since the late 1990s. (It looked the
same at university in 1990 too, but then it was in black and white.)

I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager
with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
and xload(1) in a corner. I don't see what value a desktop
environment would add.

/Jorgen

[Dan Espen]

Post by Jorgen Grahn
...

Post by songbird
my desktop is MATE and that is pretty simple and does what
i want it to do. lightdm is the desktop manager i like.
there are plenty of other windowin environments out there
though i just haven't really cared to get that much into
looking for something else when what i have is working.
years ago the Gnome desktop was what i liked and then it
went crazy with things i didn't like so i switched to kde
and then kde did the same thing so i ended up finding MATE
and have stuck with that since then.

That's why I have no desktop environment -- there's nothing the UI
enthusiasts can change. (Unless they deem X11 itself obsolete; then
I would be in trouble.)
My screen has looked the same since the late 1990s. (It looked the
same at university in 1990 too, but then it was in black and white.)
I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager
with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
and xload(1) in a corner. I don't see what value a desktop
environment would add.

xclock doesn't seem to respond to keyboard keys (I want quit at least).
So I run dclock instead.
I get the hours/minutes in big easy to read digits then weekday, month,
day, year are smaller.

xload is nice but I've got my own hacked up xsysstats.
It shows multiple readings in the same space, just using different
colors for each measurement. So, in one window I get CPU, packets,
and disk activity. I hacked it to also show uptime (as text).

I think it's necessary to have something monitoring system resources
visible at all times.

Like you, same screen since the 90s.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On 26 Sep 2020 14:24:55 GMT

Post by Jorgen Grahn
That's why I have no desktop environment -- there's nothing the UI
enthusiasts can change. (Unless they deem X11 itself obsolete; then
I would be in trouble.)

There is Wayland which is aimed at doing just that.

Post by Jorgen Grahn
My screen has looked the same since the late 1990s. (It looked the
same at university in 1990 too, but then it was in black and white.)

Mine changed from twm to fvwm to flwm between 1990 and the late
1990s but has remained unchanged ever since. Virtual desktops were a great
addition and flwm has the nicest implementation IMHO.

Post by Jorgen Grahn
I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager

startx & logout

Post by Jorgen Grahn
with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
and xload(1) in a corner. I don't see what value a desktop
environment would add.

Many years ago when Gnome was first announced I built it and
installed it to see what the fuss was about. After an incredible length of
time the compilation finished (it took longer than building the base OS and
X11 combined). I fired it up and was seriously underwhelmed to see that the
result of all that compilation was a panel on the screen with a short
handful of widgets in it. I could have written something using C and Athena
that looked like that in the time it took to compile.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On 26 Sep 2020 14:24:55 GMT

Post by Jorgen Grahn
That's why I have no desktop environment -- there's nothing the UI
enthusiasts can change. (Unless they deem X11 itself obsolete; then
I would be in trouble.)

There is Wayland which is aimed at doing just that.

Post by Jorgen Grahn
My screen has looked the same since the late 1990s. (It looked the
same at university in 1990 too, but then it was in black and white.)

Mine changed from twm to fvwm to flwm between 1990 and the late
1990s but has remained unchanged ever since. Virtual desktops were a great
addition and flwm has the nicest implementation IMHO.

Post by Jorgen Grahn
I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager

startx & logout

Post by Jorgen Grahn
with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
and xload(1) in a corner. I don't see what value a desktop
environment would add.

Many years ago when Gnome was first announced I built it and
installed it to see what the fuss was about. After an incredible length of
time the compilation finished (it took longer than building the base OS and
X11 combined). I fired it up and was seriously underwhelmed to see that the
result of all that compilation was a panel on the screen with a short
handful of widgets in it. I could have written something using C and Athena
that looked like that in the time it took to compile.

I remember trying to compile gnome on Solaris when it first came out (and
before there were Solaris builds). It seemed to depend on every open source
library ever written, so I spent weeks trying to compile the dependances.
Never did get it finished.

[Peter Flass]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On 26 Sep 2020 14:24:55 GMT

Post by Jorgen Grahn
That's why I have no desktop environment -- there's nothing the UI
enthusiasts can change. (Unless they deem X11 itself obsolete; then
I would be in trouble.)

There is Wayland which is aimed at doing just that.

Post by Jorgen Grahn
My screen has looked the same since the late 1990s. (It looked the
same at university in 1990 too, but then it was in black and white.)

Mine changed from twm to fvwm to flwm between 1990 and the late
1990s but has remained unchanged ever since. Virtual desktops were a great
addition and flwm has the nicest implementation IMHO.

Post by Jorgen Grahn
I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager

startx & logout

Post by Jorgen Grahn
with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
and xload(1) in a corner. I don't see what value a desktop
environment would add.

Many years ago when Gnome was first announced I built it and
installed it to see what the fuss was about. After an incredible length of
time the compilation finished (it took longer than building the base OS and
X11 combined). I fired it up and was seriously underwhelmed to see that the
result of all that compilation was a panel on the screen with a short
handful of widgets in it. I could have written something using C and Athena
that looked like that in the time it took to compile.

I remember trying to compile gnome on Solaris when it first came out (and
before there were Solaris builds). It seemed to depend on every open source
library ever written, so I spent weeks trying to compile the dependances.
Never did get it finished.

I’ve run across several similar packages. After a while I give up and try
to find an alternate solution.

[Niklas Karlsson]

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Mine changed from twm to fvwm to flwm between 1990 and the late
1990s but has remained unchanged ever since. Virtual desktops were a great
addition and flwm has the nicest implementation IMHO.

flwm is good stuff, I used it for most of the time I ran Linux on the
desktop.

Niklas

[Niklas Karlsson]

Post by Jorgen Grahn
I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager
with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
and xload(1) in a corner. I don't see what value a desktop
environment would add.

I've not run X in forever (barring the rare server-side app I project on
a local X server, but that is rare indeed), but what I found most
galling was that there were at least three ways copy/paste would work,
depending on what toolkit the app was written using.

Mind you, perhaps one can mostly stay away from Gtk apps and such.

Niklas

[Dan Espen]

Post by Niklas Karlsson

Post by Jorgen Grahn
I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager
with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
and xload(1) in a corner. I don't see what value a desktop
environment would add.

I've not run X in forever (barring the rare server-side app I project on
a local X server, but that is rare indeed), but what I found most
galling was that there were at least three ways copy/paste would work,
depending on what toolkit the app was written using.

That is indeed a weakness in X. Copy paste is implemented at the
application level and it can vary. However, last time I looked,
windows always had an extra step involved in copy paste. You need to
stroke the stuff you want to copy, then select the copy option from
a popup menu. X11 applications are almost universal in supporting
stroke to copy, button 2 to paste.

[J. Clarke]

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Niklas Karlsson

Post by Jorgen Grahn
I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager
with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
and xload(1) in a corner. I don't see what value a desktop
environment would add.

I've not run X in forever (barring the rare server-side app I project on
a local X server, but that is rare indeed), but what I found most
galling was that there were at least three ways copy/paste would work,
depending on what toolkit the app was written using.

That is indeed a weakness in X. Copy paste is implemented at the
application level and it can vary. However, last time I looked,
windows always had an extra step involved in copy paste. You need to
stroke the stuff you want to copy, then select the copy option from
a popup menu. X11 applications are almost universal in supporting
stroke to copy, button 2 to paste.

In Windows applications that use the APIs and are correctly programmed
it's left-button-stroke to select, left-button-drag to cut-and-paste.

To copy it's left-button-stroke to select, left-button-ctrl-drag to
copy and paste.

In dragging between applications the ctrl- may be implied--that seems
to be a developer decision and may be user-controllable on some
applications. Dragging from the Visual Studio text editor to
Notepad++ for example copies, while dragging the other way cuts.

Do _not_ count on this working with any application that requires
MinGW or Cygwin or is written in portable Java.

[Dan Espen]

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Niklas Karlsson

Post by Jorgen Grahn
I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager
with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
and xload(1) in a corner. I don't see what value a desktop
environment would add.

I've not run X in forever (barring the rare server-side app I project on
a local X server, but that is rare indeed), but what I found most
galling was that there were at least three ways copy/paste would work,
depending on what toolkit the app was written using.

That is indeed a weakness in X. Copy paste is implemented at the
application level and it can vary. However, last time I looked,
windows always had an extra step involved in copy paste. You need to
stroke the stuff you want to copy, then select the copy option from
a popup menu. X11 applications are almost universal in supporting
stroke to copy, button 2 to paste.

In Windows applications that use the APIs and are correctly programmed
it's left-button-stroke to select, left-button-drag to cut-and-paste.

I thought just doing the stroke wasn't sufficient.
Oh well.

Post by J. Clarke
To copy it's left-button-stroke to select, left-button-ctrl-drag to
copy and paste.
In dragging between applications the ctrl- may be implied--that seems
to be a developer decision and may be user-controllable on some
applications. Dragging from the Visual Studio text editor to
Notepad++ for example copies, while dragging the other way cuts.
Do _not_ count on this working with any application that requires
MinGW or Cygwin or is written in portable Java.

That's interesting, I assumed Windows itself either did copy paste on
it's own or the tool kits made it real easy. Sounds like just like
X11, each application can go it's own way. Memory is vague, but
I thought Windows was way more consistent. I remember trying to
implement copy/paste in an X11 application that didn't use any
toolkit at all. It wasn't easy.

[J. Clarke]

Post by Dan Espen

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Niklas Karlsson

Post by Jorgen Grahn
I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager
with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
and xload(1) in a corner. I don't see what value a desktop
environment would add.

I've not run X in forever (barring the rare server-side app I project on
a local X server, but that is rare indeed), but what I found most
galling was that there were at least three ways copy/paste would work,
depending on what toolkit the app was written using.

That is indeed a weakness in X. Copy paste is implemented at the
application level and it can vary. However, last time I looked,
windows always had an extra step involved in copy paste. You need to
stroke the stuff you want to copy, then select the copy option from
a popup menu. X11 applications are almost universal in supporting
stroke to copy, button 2 to paste.

In Windows applications that use the APIs and are correctly programmed
it's left-button-stroke to select, left-button-drag to cut-and-paste.

I thought just doing the stroke wasn't sufficient.
Oh well.

Post by J. Clarke
To copy it's left-button-stroke to select, left-button-ctrl-drag to
copy and paste.
In dragging between applications the ctrl- may be implied--that seems
to be a developer decision and may be user-controllable on some
applications. Dragging from the Visual Studio text editor to
Notepad++ for example copies, while dragging the other way cuts.
Do _not_ count on this working with any application that requires
MinGW or Cygwin or is written in portable Java.

That's interesting, I assumed Windows itself either did copy paste on
it's own or the tool kits made it real easy. Sounds like just like
X11, each application can go it's own way. Memory is vague, but
I thought Windows was way more consistent. I remember trying to
implement copy/paste in an X11 application that didn't use any
toolkit at all. It wasn't easy.

You've hit on the problem. MinGW and CygWin don't result in
Windows-native applications, they result in *nix applications running
on a pseudo-*nix layered on top of Windows. And Java is off in its
own little universe.

[Peter Flass]

Post by Dan Espen

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Niklas Karlsson

Post by Jorgen Grahn
I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager
with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
and xload(1) in a corner. I don't see what value a desktop
environment would add.

I've not run X in forever (barring the rare server-side app I project on
a local X server, but that is rare indeed), but what I found most
galling was that there were at least three ways copy/paste would work,
depending on what toolkit the app was written using.

That is indeed a weakness in X. Copy paste is implemented at the
application level and it can vary. However, last time I looked,
windows always had an extra step involved in copy paste. You need to
stroke the stuff you want to copy, then select the copy option from
a popup menu. X11 applications are almost universal in supporting
stroke to copy, button 2 to paste.

In Windows applications that use the APIs and are correctly programmed
it's left-button-stroke to select, left-button-drag to cut-and-paste.

I thought just doing the stroke wasn't sufficient.
Oh well.

Post by J. Clarke
To copy it's left-button-stroke to select, left-button-ctrl-drag to
copy and paste.
In dragging between applications the ctrl- may be implied--that seems
to be a developer decision and may be user-controllable on some
applications. Dragging from the Visual Studio text editor to
Notepad++ for example copies, while dragging the other way cuts.
Do _not_ count on this working with any application that requires
MinGW or Cygwin or is written in portable Java.

That's interesting, I assumed Windows itself either did copy paste on
it's own or the tool kits made it real easy. Sounds like just like
X11, each application can go it's own way. Memory is vague, but
I thought Windows was way more consistent. I remember trying to
implement copy/paste in an X11 application that didn't use any
toolkit at all. It wasn't easy.

I suppose what “paste” means can depend on the congruence of what is cut
and what it is being pasted into.

[J. Clarke]

On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 10:38:10 -0700, Peter Flass

Post by Peter Flass

Post by Dan Espen

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Niklas Karlsson

Post by Jorgen Grahn
I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager
with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
and xload(1) in a corner. I don't see what value a desktop
environment would add.

I've not run X in forever (barring the rare server-side app I project on
a local X server, but that is rare indeed), but what I found most
galling was that there were at least three ways copy/paste would work,
depending on what toolkit the app was written using.

That is indeed a weakness in X. Copy paste is implemented at the
application level and it can vary. However, last time I looked,
windows always had an extra step involved in copy paste. You need to
stroke the stuff you want to copy, then select the copy option from
a popup menu. X11 applications are almost universal in supporting
stroke to copy, button 2 to paste.

In Windows applications that use the APIs and are correctly programmed
it's left-button-stroke to select, left-button-drag to cut-and-paste.

I thought just doing the stroke wasn't sufficient.
Oh well.

Post by J. Clarke
To copy it's left-button-stroke to select, left-button-ctrl-drag to
copy and paste.
In dragging between applications the ctrl- may be implied--that seems
to be a developer decision and may be user-controllable on some
applications. Dragging from the Visual Studio text editor to
Notepad++ for example copies, while dragging the other way cuts.
Do _not_ count on this working with any application that requires
MinGW or Cygwin or is written in portable Java.

That's interesting, I assumed Windows itself either did copy paste on
it's own or the tool kits made it real easy. Sounds like just like
X11, each application can go it's own way. Memory is vague, but
I thought Windows was way more consistent. I remember trying to
implement copy/paste in an X11 application that didn't use any
toolkit at all. It wasn't easy.

I suppose what “paste” means can depend on the congruence of what is cut
and what it is being pasted into.

That is certainly true--pasting an image into a text-only editor
doesn't work. Otoh, dragging the contents of an Excel cell has varied
resultes depending on the target.

[Niklas Karlsson]

Post by J. Clarke
In Windows applications that use the APIs and are correctly programmed
it's left-button-stroke to select, left-button-drag to cut-and-paste.

PuTTY, which I use daily, is of course an aberration. It attempts to
emulate the classic X behaviour, putting the stroked text into the
buffer immediately and then pasting with the right button (would be
middle on a proper *nix machine, I suppose).

I've learned this behaviour and it's now automatic for me, but
inconsistency is rarely a good thing.

Niklas

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Niklas Karlsson

Post by Jorgen Grahn
I log in in text mode, run 'startx' and get a simple window manager
with some menus and four virtual screens, plus the classic xclock(1)
and xload(1) in a corner. I don't see what value a desktop
environment would add.

I've not run X in forever (barring the rare server-side app I project on
a local X server, but that is rare indeed), but what I found most
galling was that there were at least three ways copy/paste would work,
depending on what toolkit the app was written using.

Really? I've not encountered that. Select with the mouse and
paste with the middle button has worked with every Unix and
Linux gui and application that I've used.

It does sometimes get weird when VNC gets involved.