LINUX, Windows, MSDOS, CP/M; Bloatware all?

[gareth evans]

Having cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 with no OS, and thus
was in complete control of the machine, what I seek is an OS
that runs only the programs that I wish, and that does not
have shedloads of daemons and background processes that I did not
launch.

So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

[Thomas Koenig]

Post by gareth evans
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

Use a systemd-free Linux distribution (Devuan comes to mind) and
do not install / start up those daemons that you don't need.

If you want a bare-bones window manager, use i3.

[gareth evans]

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by gareth evans
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

Use a systemd-free Linux distribution (Devuan comes to mind) and
do not install / start up those daemons that you don't need.

That would somewhat defeat the purpose because I'd have to build
up detailed knowledge of the bits in which I have no interest whatsoever!

[Chris]

Post by gareth evans

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by gareth evans
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

Use a systemd-free Linux distribution (Devuan comes to mind) and
do not install / start up those daemons that you don't need.

That would somewhat defeat the purpose because I'd have to build
up detailed knowledge of the bits in which I have no interest whatsoever!

You'll probably get this from others as well, but FreeBSD is the way to
go for those fedup with Linux as bloatware. Install takes less than an
hour via a text interface. On reboot, you get a text login, then install
the gui of choice (xfce4 here) via a handful of packages and you are
good to go.

An Intel E3- class machine is plenty good enough, though an E5- might
be better. Good performance and ~40 watts for an E3, 60-70 watts for an
E5. All earlier Intels draw considerably more power for no better
performance...

Chris

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 14:23:12 +0100

Post by Chris

Post by gareth evans

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by gareth evans
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

Use a systemd-free Linux distribution (Devuan comes to mind) and
do not install / start up those daemons that you don't need.

That would somewhat defeat the purpose because I'd have to build
up detailed knowledge of the bits in which I have no interest whatsoever!

You'll probably get this from others as well, but FreeBSD is the way to
go for those fedup with Linux as bloatware. Install takes less than an
hour via a text interface. On reboot, you get a text login, then install
the gui of choice (xfce4 here) via a handful of packages and you are
good to go.

A worthy suggestion indeed (and my own choice). An interesting
alternative that suits the minimalist who wants to work at understanding
what they've got is Linux From Scratch.

[Chris]

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 14:23:12 +0100

Post by Chris

Post by gareth evans

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by gareth evans
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

Use a systemd-free Linux distribution (Devuan comes to mind) and
do not install / start up those daemons that you don't need.

That would somewhat defeat the purpose because I'd have to build
up detailed knowledge of the bits in which I have no interest whatsoever!

You'll probably get this from others as well, but FreeBSD is the way to
go for those fedup with Linux as bloatware. Install takes less than an
hour via a text interface. On reboot, you get a text login, then install
the gui of choice (xfce4 here) via a handful of packages and you are
good to go.

A worthy suggestion indeed (and my own choice). An interesting
alternative that suits the minimalist who wants to work at understanding
what they've got is Linux From Scratch.

Running a DL320 g8 Proliant here for the windows desktop and a DL360
G8 for the FreeBSD machine. Both 1u high and the last of the Proliants
before uefi bios became the default. Old enough to be cheap as well,
with dual psu, ecc memory, ilom and more than enough performance for
the task. Enough pci-e slots to put in a good enough graphics card
like a Radeon 2250 or similar. What I do like about them is the
raid card, where if disk goes down, just take out the duff drive, fit
a new one and drink coffee while the system rebuilds itself. Not
currently running zfs on that machine, but the h/w raid card gets
the job done just fine...

Chris

[Jim Jackson]

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot

Post by Chris

Post by gareth evans

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by gareth evans
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

Use a systemd-free Linux distribution (Devuan comes to mind) and
do not install / start up those daemons that you don't need.

That would somewhat defeat the purpose because I'd have to build
up detailed knowledge of the bits in which I have no interest whatsoever!

You'll probably get this from others as well, but FreeBSD is the way to
go for those fedup with Linux as bloatware. Install takes less than an
hour via a text interface. On reboot, you get a text login, then install
the gui of choice (xfce4 here) via a handful of packages and you are
good to go.

A worthy suggestion indeed (and my own choice). An interesting
alternative that suits the minimalist who wants to work at understanding
what they've got is Linux From Scratch.

LFS is an excellent educational way to go. I find for debian like Linux
based distro's, I install the minimal base system - the netinst one -
that installs a minimumheadless system, and then I just add the packages
I need - starting for a desktop with an X server, then my preference for
a desktop is lightdm, openbox, lxpanel, xterm and work from there.

Nice and simple not a lot of bloat. If you go for the pre-packaged Desktop
environment - it will be bloat.

[Massimo M.]

Post by Chris
You'll probably get this from others as well, but FreeBSD is the way to
go for those fedup with Linux as bloatware. Install takes less than an
hour via a text interface.

excuse me, but... on what machine?
i installed freebsd on a G8 microserver in less than 25 minutes, and a debian on a 1-cpu VM on a ryzen3600 with a unexpensive ssd in a quarter of hours.
In one hour you can install freebsd via network installation with a 10mb internet connection from a sloppy mirror...

[J. Clarke]

On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 14:50:13 -0700 (PDT), "Massimo M."

Post by Massimo M.

Post by Chris
You'll probably get this from others as well, but FreeBSD is the way to
go for those fedup with Linux as bloatware. Install takes less than an
hour via a text interface.

excuse me, but... on what machine?
i installed freebsd on a G8 microserver in less than 25 minutes, and a debian on a 1-cpu VM on a ryzen3600 with a unexpensive ssd in a quarter of hours.
In one hour you can install freebsd via network installation with a 10mb internet connection from a sloppy mirror...

Are you supporting his argument or disagreeing with him? Your "excuse
me, but on what machine?" suggests that you're disagreeing but then
your facts support his argument.

[Chris]

Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 14:50:13 -0700 (PDT), "Massimo M."

Post by Massimo M.

Post by Chris
You'll probably get this from others as well, but FreeBSD is the way to
go for those fedup with Linux as bloatware. Install takes less than an
hour via a text interface.

excuse me, but... on what machine?
i installed freebsd on a G8 microserver in less than 25 minutes, and a debian on a 1-cpu VM on a ryzen3600 with a unexpensive ssd in a quarter of hours.
In one hour you can install freebsd via network installation with a 10mb internet connection from a sloppy mirror...

Are you supporting his argument or disagreeing with him? Your "excuse
me, but on what machine?" suggests that you're disagreeing but then
your facts support his argument.

Lol. The wonders of usenet :-)...

Chris

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 18:44:57 -0400

Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 14:50:13 -0700 (PDT), "Massimo M."

Post by Massimo M.

Post by Chris
You'll probably get this from others as well, but FreeBSD is the way
to go for those fedup with Linux as bloatware. Install takes less than
an hour via a text interface.

excuse me, but... on what machine?
i installed freebsd on a G8 microserver in less than 25 minutes, and a
debian on a 1-cpu VM on a ryzen3600 with a unexpensive ssd in a quarter
of hours. In one hour you can install freebsd via network installation
with a 10mb internet connection from a sloppy mirror...

To many a 10Mb internet connection is still fast.

Post by J. Clarke
Are you supporting his argument or disagreeing with him? Your "excuse

He's suggesting the argument is understated - personally I'm happy
with 25 minutes being less than an hour.

[Chris]

Post by Massimo M.

Post by Chris
You'll probably get this from others as well, but FreeBSD is the way to
go for those fedup with Linux as bloatware. Install takes less than an
hour via a text interface.

excuse me, but... on what machine?
i installed freebsd on a G8 microserver in less than 25 minutes, and a debian on a 1-cpu VM on a ryzen3600 with a unexpensive ssd in a quarter of hours.
In one hour you can install freebsd via network installation with a 10mb internet connection from a sloppy mirror...

Quite possible, less than an hour can include 30 minutes,
but nor pedantic about that. Usually install everything
from a dvd, but yes, it is fast...

Chris

[Bob Eager]

Post by Massimo M.
i installed freebsd on a G8 microserver in less than 25 minutes, and a
debian on a 1-cpu VM on a ryzen3600 with a unexpensive ssd in a quarter
of hours.

I don't even think it takes me that long to install FreeBSD, also on a G8
microserver! But then I am fairly used to it. 15 minutes, including some
custom stuff at a shell prompt along the way (I set up mirrored disks).

[Dennis Boone]

Post by Thomas Koenig
Use a systemd-free Linux distribution (Devuan comes to mind) and
do not install / start up those daemons that you don't need.

Alpine is a lovably minimal (by default) linux distribution.

De

[maus]

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by gareth evans
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

Use a systemd-free Linux distribution (Devuan comes to mind) and
do not install / start up those daemons that you don't need.
If you want a bare-bones window manager, use i3.

dwm. Cured my arm pain

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On 15 Sep 2020 18:52:18 GMT

Post by maus

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by gareth evans
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

Use a systemd-free Linux distribution (Devuan comes to mind) and
do not install / start up those daemons that you don't need.
If you want a bare-bones window manager, use i3.

dwm. Cured my arm pain

flwm yes ell not vee.

[Andreas Kohlbach]

Post by gareth evans
Having cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 with no OS, and thus
was in complete control of the machine, what I seek is an OS
that runs only the programs that I wish, and that does not
have shedloads of daemons and background processes that I did not
launch.
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

My thought was CP/M. It has printer support and GEM as GUI is
available. But the internet option might be a problem.

[gareth evans]

Post by Andreas Kohlbach

Post by gareth evans
Having cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 with no OS, and thus
was in complete control of the machine, what I seek is an OS
that runs only the programs that I wish, and that does not
have shedloads of daemons and background processes that I did not
launch.
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

My thought was CP/M. It has printer support and GEM as GUI is
available. But the internet option might be a problem.

ISTR (back in 1987) that GEM on the Amstrad 1512 was nobbut a
pictorial representation of a file directory.

However. CP/M to my memory is not multiprogrammed, so although
I would not want the law-unto-themmselves of numerous anonymous
Daemons and processes, I'd still want to control what happens in the
background

After prompting from another poster, I did look up Linux From Scratch
but it seems to be arse-about-face because you'd already need a complex
LINUX installation in order to create a simple one!

[Niklas Karlsson]

Post by gareth evans
However. CP/M to my memory is not multiprogrammed, so although
I would not want the law-unto-themmselves of numerous anonymous
Daemons and processes, I'd still want to control what happens in the
background

MP/M is multiprogrammed, but that probably still doesn't help you on the
matter of TCP/IP. Not sure about the GUI question either. Anyone?

Niklas

[gareth evans]

Post by Niklas Karlsson

Post by gareth evans
However. CP/M to my memory is not multiprogrammed, so although
I would not want the law-unto-themmselves of numerous anonymous
Daemons and processes, I'd still want to control what happens in the
background

MP/M is multiprogrammed, but that probably still doesn't help you on the
matter of TCP/IP. Not sure about the GUI question either. Anyone?

The graphical user interface and the world wide web are two
fantastic developments in the field of computing, but why
do they come with so much baggage dragging them down? Have we
forgotten the capabilities of simple OSs?

[Niklas Karlsson]

Post by gareth evans
The graphical user interface and the world wide web are two
fantastic developments in the field of computing, but why
do they come with so much baggage dragging them down? Have we
forgotten the capabilities of simple OSs?

Computers have gradually become more and more powerful and comparatively
cheaper. Software, like anything else, tends to expand to consume the
resources available, without necessarily providing greater utility in
proportion.

Niklas

[gareth evans]

Post by Niklas Karlsson

Post by gareth evans
The graphical user interface and the world wide web are two
fantastic developments in the field of computing, but why
do they come with so much baggage dragging them down? Have we
forgotten the capabilities of simple OSs?

Computers have gradually become more and more powerful and comparatively
cheaper. Software, like anything else, tends to expand to consume the
resources available, without necessarily providing greater utility in
proportion.

... which is where I came in! :-)

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On 14 Sep 2020 19:57:43 GMT

Post by Niklas Karlsson

Post by gareth evans
However. CP/M to my memory is not multiprogrammed, so although
I would not want the law-unto-themmselves of numerous anonymous
Daemons and processes, I'd still want to control what happens in the
background

MP/M is multiprogrammed, but that probably still doesn't help you on the
matter of TCP/IP. Not sure about the GUI question either. Anyone?

There are TCP/IP stacks for the Z80, and GEM for CP/M so it would
seem to be at least possible to arrange an internet connected MP/M box with
a GUI. A web browser with CSS and JavaScript is probably completely
impossible though.

[Chris]

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On 14 Sep 2020 19:57:43 GMT

Post by Niklas Karlsson

Post by gareth evans
However. CP/M to my memory is not multiprogrammed, so although
I would not want the law-unto-themmselves of numerous anonymous
Daemons and processes, I'd still want to control what happens in the
background

MP/M is multiprogrammed, but that probably still doesn't help you on the
matter of TCP/IP. Not sure about the GUI question either. Anyone?

There are TCP/IP stacks for the Z80, and GEM for CP/M so it would
seem to be at least possible to arrange an internet connected MP/M box with
a GUI. A web browser with CSS and JavaScript is probably completely
impossible though.

The older machines have neither the cpu power, nor the memory to support
a modern browser. The bloatware in modern os's is coming the gui,
primarily, with loads of gui applications layered on top of the basic
framework. That also needs os support, from networking, memory
management, security and much more.

So much more functionality from current systems that we could only dream
about 20 years ago, but there are different tradeoffs now...

Chris

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 22:57:14 +0100

Post by Chris

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On 14 Sep 2020 19:57:43 GMT

Post by Niklas Karlsson

Post by gareth evans
However. CP/M to my memory is not multiprogrammed, so although
I would not want the law-unto-themmselves of numerous anonymous
Daemons and processes, I'd still want to control what happens in the
background

MP/M is multiprogrammed, but that probably still doesn't help you on
the matter of TCP/IP. Not sure about the GUI question either. Anyone?

There are TCP/IP stacks for the Z80, and GEM for CP/M so it
would seem to be at least possible to arrange an internet connected
MP/M box with a GUI. A web browser with CSS and JavaScript is probably
completely impossible though.

The older machines have neither the cpu power, nor the memory to support
a modern browser. The bloatware in modern os's is coming the gui,

Oh sure, but I was contemplating a modern MP/M machine - take an
FPGA and a DDR4 RAM stick and you could probably run a hundred or more Z80A
equivalents each with 256K of bank switched RAM. Run MP/M on it like a giant
Micromation box. But even then I doubt a modern browser could be split into
enough small parts to make it work.

[Questor]

Post by Chris

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On 14 Sep 2020 19:57:43 GMT

Post by Niklas Karlsson

Post by gareth evans
However. CP/M to my memory is not multiprogrammed, so although
I would not want the law-unto-themmselves of numerous anonymous
Daemons and processes, I'd still want to control what happens in the
background

MP/M is multiprogrammed, but that probably still doesn't help you on the
matter of TCP/IP. Not sure about the GUI question either. Anyone?

There are TCP/IP stacks for the Z80, and GEM for CP/M so it would
seem to be at least possible to arrange an internet connected MP/M box with
a GUI. A web browser with CSS and JavaScript is probably completely
impossible though.

The older machines have neither the cpu power, nor the memory to support
a modern browser. The bloatware in modern os's is coming the gui,

Sorry, I have to disagree. See my other post about Geoworks. Older machines
have plenty enough horsepower and memory to run a modern browser, if it was
coded efficiently. That current software isn't so written is in part because of
the idea that with so much CPU and memory available, it isn't necesary.

[Bob Eager]

Having cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 with no OS, and thus was in
complete control of the machine, what I seek is an OS that runs only
the programs that I wish, and that does not have shedloads of daemons
and background processes that I did not launch.
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

My thought was CP/M. It has printer support and GEM as GUI is available.
But the internet option might be a problem.

Surely it's bloated if it has a GUI? I used UNIX for years before it had
a GUI.

[Andreas Kohlbach]

Post by Bob Eager

Having cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 with no OS, and thus was in
complete control of the machine, what I seek is an OS that runs only
the programs that I wish, and that does not have shedloads of daemons
and background processes that I did not launch.
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

My thought was CP/M. It has printer support and GEM as GUI is available.
But the internet option might be a problem.

Surely it's bloated if it has a GUI? I used UNIX for years before it had
a GUI.

A GUI, however small in memory, might be too much for a PDP11 anyway. No
matter what OS it's running.

I mentioned CP/M because it should be appropriate for older machines.

[Peter Flass]

Post by Andreas Kohlbach

Post by Bob Eager

Having cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 with no OS, and thus was in
complete control of the machine, what I seek is an OS that runs only
the programs that I wish, and that does not have shedloads of daemons
and background processes that I did not launch.
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

My thought was CP/M. It has printer support and GEM as GUI is available.
But the internet option might be a problem.

Surely it's bloated if it has a GUI? I used UNIX for years before it had
a GUI.

A GUI, however small in memory, might be too much for a PDP11 anyway. No
matter what OS it's running.

The Alto had a minimum of 128K bytes (64K words, I think) and should have
been about the same class of machine as an -11.

[Questor]

Post by gareth evans
Having cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 with no OS, and thus
was in complete control of the machine, what I seek is an OS
that runs only the programs that I wish, and that does not
have shedloads of daemons and background processes that I did not
launch.
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

More of Gareth's old whine in new bottles... you sure do like to ramble on and
on about how you started on a naked PDP11, Grandad. Did you also have to walk
ten miles through the snow, uphill and against the wind both ways, to get to
school?

What's wrong with all those background processes? Gotta keep all those cores
doing sumthin'.

Since you like to brag so much about how you "did it all back in the day," why
aren't you doing it now with current hardware? The components are readily
available at just about any level you care to chose. Assemble a machine and
write the Next Great Operating System.

As for the rest of us...

I do not want to raise, slaughter, and butcher my own livestock, grow all my own
vegetables and grain, or bake my own bread.

I do not want to grow my own cotton, weave my own cloth, or sew my own clothes.

I do not want to mine my own ore, smelt my own metal, fashion my own parts, or
build my own car.

And, like most people...

I do not want to design my own hardware, write my own microcode, kernel, OS, or
most applications.

Getting off your lawn now...

[gareth evans]

Post by Questor
More of Gareth's old whine in new bottles... you sure do like to ramble on and
on about how you started on a naked PDP11, Grandad. Did you also have to walk
ten miles through the snow, uphill and against the wind both ways, to get to
school?

Grandad?

Grow up, Sonny!

Did you get out of bed on the wrong side this morning?

[gareth evans]

Post by Questor
I do not want to raise, slaughter, and butcher my own livestock, grow all my own
vegetables and grain, or bake my own bread.
I do not want to grow my own cotton, weave my own cloth, or sew my own clothes.
I do not want to mine my own ore, smelt my own metal, fashion my own parts, or
build my own car.
I do not want to design my own hardware, write my own microcode, kernel, OS, or
most applications.

A non-technical red-necked consumer from hoi polloi, perhaps?

[Niklas Karlsson]

Post by gareth evans

Post by Questor
I do not want to raise, slaughter, and butcher my own livestock, grow all my own
vegetables and grain, or bake my own bread.
I do not want to grow my own cotton, weave my own cloth, or sew my own clothes.
I do not want to mine my own ore, smelt my own metal, fashion my own parts, or
build my own car.
I do not want to design my own hardware, write my own microcode, kernel, OS, or
most applications.

A non-technical red-necked consumer from hoi polloi, perhaps?

I think it's safe to say Questor is anything but non-technical.

My sentiment is not dissimilar to his. I'm a young'un in this froup, but
I've still worked in computing for 20 years by now. At the early stages,
I loved to tinker with all the details. I never wrote an OS from the
ground up or anything like that, but still much more low-level tinkering
than a great deal of people would ever want to do.

It gave me a good background in how things work deep down, which is
useful, but these days I really can't be bothered to grovel in low-level
details all the time. Plus if I insisted on doing that every time I had
to solve a problem, I'd likely be out of a job. These days I usually
want things to Just Work, so I can focus on what currently doesn't.

Niklas

[gareth evans]

Post by Niklas Karlsson

Post by gareth evans

Post by Questor
I do not want to raise, slaughter, and butcher my own livestock, grow all my own
vegetables and grain, or bake my own bread.
I do not want to grow my own cotton, weave my own cloth, or sew my own clothes.
I do not want to mine my own ore, smelt my own metal, fashion my own parts, or
build my own car.
I do not want to design my own hardware, write my own microcode, kernel, OS, or
most applications.

A non-technical red-necked consumer from hoi polloi, perhaps?

I think it's safe to say Questor is anything but non-technical.
My sentiment is not dissimilar to his. I'm a young'un in this froup, but
I've still worked in computing for 20 years by now. At the early stages,
I loved to tinker with all the details. I never wrote an OS from the
ground up or anything like that, but still much more low-level tinkering
than a great deal of people would ever want to do.
It gave me a good background in how things work deep down, which is
useful, but these days I really can't be bothered to grovel in low-level
details all the time. Plus if I insisted on doing that every time I had
to solve a problem, I'd likely be out of a job. These days I usually
want things to Just Work, so I can focus on what currently doesn't.

My background, and the folklore associated with it, is in low-level
intimate contact with computers. Computers are there to be appreciated
for their beauty as complex machines, and not necessarily there to be
used for any practical purpose :-)

But, in response to Questor and other contributors of a similar bent,
if you dislike my contributions to this NG, then investigate the
concept of Kill Files, and you won't have to suffer any further.

[Andy Leighton]

On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 12:34:17 +0100,

Post by gareth evans
My background, and the folklore associated with it, is in low-level
intimate contact with computers.

Intimate contact? Is that like the Suffolk man who was arrested for
public indecency and admitted having sex with 450 tractors?

[Peter Flass]

Post by gareth evans

Post by Questor
I do not want to raise, slaughter, and butcher my own livestock, grow all my own
vegetables and grain, or bake my own bread.
I do not want to grow my own cotton, weave my own cloth, or sew my own clothes.
I do not want to mine my own ore, smelt my own metal, fashion my own parts, or
build my own car.
I do not want to design my own hardware, write my own microcode, kernel, OS, or
most applications.

A non-technical red-necked consumer from hoi polloi, perhaps?

I have to agree with him. Lots of things were fun in olden days because 1)
That was all,the hardware and software we had to work with. 2) It was
exciting doing something for the first time, and challenging to get it to
fit. Sometimes I think back to the 1130 I loved of the Altair I wanted to
own; I could now run emulators for them, but what’s the point? Most of what
you could do with them has been done and we’ve moved on. The fun now is
writing the emulator.

I still enjoy developing software, but I don’t want to have to worry about
the platform I’m developing on. If I have to spend time installing and
customizing software or whatever it’s not productive in terms if what I
want to get done.

[Andreas Kohlbach]

Post by Peter Flass
I have to agree with him. Lots of things were fun in olden days because 1)
That was all,the hardware and software we had to work with. 2) It was
exciting doing something for the first time, and challenging to get it to
fit.

:-)

Post by Peter Flass
Sometimes I think back to the 1130 I loved of the Altair I wanted to
own; I could now run emulators for them, but what’s the point? Most of
what you could do with them has been done and we’ve moved on. The fun
now is writing the emulator.

Not owning any vintage hardware an emulator helps me to explore things I
missed in the past.

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by gareth evans

Post by Questor
I do not want to raise, slaughter, and butcher my own livestock, grow all my own
vegetables and grain, or bake my own bread.
I do not want to grow my own cotton, weave my own cloth, or sew my own clothes.
I do not want to mine my own ore, smelt my own metal, fashion my own parts, or
build my own car.
I do not want to design my own hardware, write my own microcode, kernel, OS, or
most applications.

A non-technical red-necked consumer from hoi polloi, perhaps?

Insults and namecalling aren't helpful.

[gareth evans]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by gareth evans

Post by Questor
I do not want to raise, slaughter, and butcher my own livestock, grow all my own
vegetables and grain, or bake my own bread.
I do not want to grow my own cotton, weave my own cloth, or sew my own clothes.
I do not want to mine my own ore, smelt my own metal, fashion my own parts, or
build my own car.
I do not want to design my own hardware, write my own microcode, kernel, OS, or
most applications.

A non-technical red-necked consumer from hoi polloi, perhaps?

Insults and namecalling aren't helpful.

You were happy for the insults from the previous poster?

I merely responded in kind.

However, yes, life's too short!

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by gareth evans

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by gareth evans

Post by Questor
I do not want to raise, slaughter, and butcher my own livestock, grow all my own
vegetables and grain, or bake my own bread.
I do not want to grow my own cotton, weave my own cloth, or sew my own clothes.
I do not want to mine my own ore, smelt my own metal, fashion my own parts, or
build my own car.
I do not want to design my own hardware, write my own microcode, kernel, OS, or
most applications.

A non-technical red-necked consumer from hoi polloi, perhaps?

Insults and namecalling aren't helpful.

You were happy for the insults from the previous poster?

What insults?

The previous poster has a long history of productive and informative
posts.

Post by gareth evans
I merely responded in kind.

You have a long history of provocative and often unpleasant posts.

[gareth evans]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by gareth evans

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by gareth evans

Post by Questor
I do not want to raise, slaughter, and butcher my own livestock, grow all my own
vegetables and grain, or bake my own bread.
I do not want to grow my own cotton, weave my own cloth, or sew my own clothes.
I do not want to mine my own ore, smelt my own metal, fashion my own parts, or
build my own car.
I do not want to design my own hardware, write my own microcode, kernel, OS, or
most applications.

A non-technical red-necked consumer from hoi polloi, perhaps?

Insults and namecalling aren't helpful.

You were happy for the insults from the previous poster?

What insults?

Read his post. YMMV.

Post by Scott Lurndal
The previous poster has a long history of productive and informative
posts.

Irrelevant.

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by gareth evans
I merely responded in kind.

You have a long history of provocative and often unpleasant posts.

Untrue. What was that you said that insults aren't helpful?

[Questor]

Post by gareth evans

Post by Questor
I do not want to raise, slaughter, and butcher my own livestock, grow all my own
vegetables and grain, or bake my own bread.
I do not want to grow my own cotton, weave my own cloth, or sew my own clothes.
I do not want to mine my own ore, smelt my own metal, fashion my own parts, or
build my own car.
I do not want to design my own hardware, write my own microcode, kernel, OS, or
most applications.

A non-technical red-necked consumer from hoi polloi, perhaps?

I have no need to re-create the wheel.

You've got a pretty thin skin to be hanging out in this newsgroup, Buck-o.

You mention your early PDP-11 experience in practically every second post. At
this point it's just bragging.

Yeah, we get it. You're a dinosaur, just like the rest of us. Get on with it,
or at least come up with a new, more interesting whine.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 20:31:50 GMT

Post by Questor

Post by gareth evans
A non-technical red-necked consumer from hoi polloi, perhaps?

You mention your early PDP-11 experience in practically every second
post. At this point it's just bragging.

Some good war stories from it would go down well though.

[gareth evans]

Post by Questor

Post by gareth evans

Post by Questor
I do not want to raise, slaughter, and butcher my own livestock, grow all my own
vegetables and grain, or bake my own bread.
I do not want to grow my own cotton, weave my own cloth, or sew my own clothes.
I do not want to mine my own ore, smelt my own metal, fashion my own parts, or
build my own car.
I do not want to design my own hardware, write my own microcode, kernel, OS, or
most applications.

A non-technical red-necked consumer from hoi polloi, perhaps?

I have no need to re-create the wheel.
You've got a pretty thin skin to be hanging out in this newsgroup, Buck-o.
You mention your early PDP-11 experience in practically every second post. At
this point it's just bragging.
Yeah, we get it. You're a dinosaur, just like the rest of us. Get on with it,
or at least come up with a new, more interesting whine.

You seem to be spoiling for a fight, but I am not.

[Bob Eager]

On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 10:57:12 +0100, gareth evans

Having cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 with no OS, and thus was in
complete control of the machine, what I seek is an OS that runs only the
programs that I wish, and that does not have shedloads of daemons and
background processes that I did not launch.
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

More of Gareth's old whine in new bottles... you sure do like to ramble
on and on about how you started on a naked PDP11, Grandad. Did you also
have to walk ten miles through the snow, uphill and against the wind
both ways,
to get to school?
What's wrong with all those background processes? Gotta keep all those
cores doing sumthin'.
Since you like to brag so much about how you "did it all back in the
day,"
why aren't you doing it now with current hardware? The components are
readily available at just about any level you care to chose. Assemble a
machine and write the Next Great Operating System.

Hear hear. And I am far from non-technical.

[gareth evans]

Post by Bob Eager

On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 10:57:12 +0100, gareth evans

Having cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 with no OS, and thus was in
complete control of the machine, what I seek is an OS that runs only the
programs that I wish, and that does not have shedloads of daemons and
background processes that I did not launch.
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

More of Gareth's old whine in new bottles... you sure do like to ramble
on and on about how you started on a naked PDP11, Grandad. Did you also
have to walk ten miles through the snow, uphill and against the wind
both ways,
to get to school?
What's wrong with all those background processes? Gotta keep all those
cores doing sumthin'.
Since you like to brag so much about how you "did it all back in the
day,"
why aren't you doing it now with current hardware? The components are
readily available at just about any level you care to chose. Assemble a
machine and write the Next Great Operating System.

Hear hear. And I am far from non-technical.

This is a NG about folklore, and that is what I discuss; history.

[Dan Espen]

Post by Questor
What's wrong with all those background processes? Gotta keep all
those cores doing sumthin'.

I was waiting for this thread to turn sensible.

All this bull about "bloat" was getting boring.

I'm running with 2GB Ram and barely put it all to use. Just looked, if
I wanted to add 4 GB that would be $18.99 US.

Last time I looked at services running I didn't need, I quickly found I
was wasting my time. Most of them were barely using CPU or memory and
they were performing useful functions.

So, with my new RGB keyboard I started with a command line utility but
started to find the command syntax challenging. The same package
(libratbag) comes with a GUI (piper). Saved me a lot of time.

I used to unload photos from my devices using my own command line tools.
I got tired of typing long commands and folder names and wrote my own
GUIto drive the process. Now I'm down to the bare minimum of
keystrokes for the process.

[J. Clarke]

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Questor
What's wrong with all those background processes? Gotta keep all
those cores doing sumthin'.

I was waiting for this thread to turn sensible.
All this bull about "bloat" was getting boring.
I'm running with 2GB Ram and barely put it all to use. Just looked, if
I wanted to add 4 GB that would be $18.99 US.
Last time I looked at services running I didn't need, I quickly found I
was wasting my time. Most of them were barely using CPU or memory and
they were performing useful functions.
So, with my new RGB keyboard I started with a command line utility but
started to find the command syntax challenging. The same package
(libratbag) comes with a GUI (piper). Saved me a lot of time.
I used to unload photos from my devices using my own command line tools.
I got tired of typing long commands and folder names and wrote my own
GUIto drive the process. Now I'm down to the bare minimum of
keystrokes for the process.

But still, the new phone I have on order would have been a large
supercomputer shop in the '70s.

[Dan Espen]

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Questor
What's wrong with all those background processes? Gotta keep all
those cores doing sumthin'.

I was waiting for this thread to turn sensible.
All this bull about "bloat" was getting boring.
I'm running with 2GB Ram and barely put it all to use. Just looked, if
I wanted to add 4 GB that would be $18.99 US.
Last time I looked at services running I didn't need, I quickly found I
was wasting my time. Most of them were barely using CPU or memory and
they were performing useful functions.
So, with my new RGB keyboard I started with a command line utility but
started to find the command syntax challenging. The same package
(libratbag) comes with a GUI (piper). Saved me a lot of time.
I used to unload photos from my devices using my own command line tools.
I got tired of typing long commands and folder names and wrote my own
GUIto drive the process. Now I'm down to the bare minimum of
keystrokes for the process.

But still, the new phone I have on order would have been a large
supercomputer shop in the '70s.

What did you order? My S5 is overdue for a replacement.
I mainly use it for driving and photos/movies.

[J. Clarke]

Post by Dan Espen

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Questor
What's wrong with all those background processes? Gotta keep all
those cores doing sumthin'.

I was waiting for this thread to turn sensible.
All this bull about "bloat" was getting boring.
I'm running with 2GB Ram and barely put it all to use. Just looked, if
I wanted to add 4 GB that would be $18.99 US.
Last time I looked at services running I didn't need, I quickly found I
was wasting my time. Most of them were barely using CPU or memory and
they were performing useful functions.
So, with my new RGB keyboard I started with a command line utility but
started to find the command syntax challenging. The same package
(libratbag) comes with a GUI (piper). Saved me a lot of time.
I used to unload photos from my devices using my own command line tools.
I got tired of typing long commands and folder names and wrote my own
GUIto drive the process. Now I'm down to the bare minimum of
keystrokes for the process.

But still, the new phone I have on order would have been a large
supercomputer shop in the '70s.

What did you order? My S5 is overdue for a replacement.
I mainly use it for driving and photos/movies.

Galaxy Note S20 Ultra with half a terabyte. I like being able to
scribble.

I'm hoping that it will actually give me reliable reception, which my
5 year old cheap ZTE doesn't. That's becoming an issue because work
wants to authenticate to a phone instead of using a token going
forward. Everything I'm reading says that the Galaxy Notes are
particularly good in that regard and if I'm spending that much anyway
I may as well get all the bells and whistles.

It's gross overkill for my needs, but . . .

[Dan Espen]

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Questor
What's wrong with all those background processes? Gotta keep all
those cores doing sumthin'.

I was waiting for this thread to turn sensible.
All this bull about "bloat" was getting boring.
I'm running with 2GB Ram and barely put it all to use. Just looked, if
I wanted to add 4 GB that would be $18.99 US.
Last time I looked at services running I didn't need, I quickly found I
was wasting my time. Most of them were barely using CPU or memory and
they were performing useful functions.
So, with my new RGB keyboard I started with a command line utility but
started to find the command syntax challenging. The same package
(libratbag) comes with a GUI (piper). Saved me a lot of time.
I used to unload photos from my devices using my own command line tools.
I got tired of typing long commands and folder names and wrote my own
GUIto drive the process. Now I'm down to the bare minimum of
keystrokes for the process.

But still, the new phone I have on order would have been a large
supercomputer shop in the '70s.

What did you order? My S5 is overdue for a replacement.
I mainly use it for driving and photos/movies.

Galaxy Note S20 Ultra with half a terabyte. I like being able to
scribble.
I'm hoping that it will actually give me reliable reception, which my
5 year old cheap ZTE doesn't. That's becoming an issue because work
wants to authenticate to a phone instead of using a token going
forward. Everything I'm reading says that the Galaxy Notes are
particularly good in that regard and if I'm spending that much anyway
I may as well get all the bells and whistles.
It's gross overkill for my needs, but . . .

Thanks.

Not sure I want something that large.
My current phone is 5.5 x 2.3.
That thing is 6.48 x 3.04.

Just looked around, the S10e is supposed to be their small phone,
5.9 x 2.75.

Not impressed.
I might be changing brands.

[J. Clarke]

Post by Dan Espen

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Questor
What's wrong with all those background processes? Gotta keep all
those cores doing sumthin'.

I was waiting for this thread to turn sensible.
All this bull about "bloat" was getting boring.
I'm running with 2GB Ram and barely put it all to use. Just looked, if
I wanted to add 4 GB that would be $18.99 US.
Last time I looked at services running I didn't need, I quickly found I
was wasting my time. Most of them were barely using CPU or memory and
they were performing useful functions.
So, with my new RGB keyboard I started with a command line utility but
started to find the command syntax challenging. The same package
(libratbag) comes with a GUI (piper). Saved me a lot of time.
I used to unload photos from my devices using my own command line tools.
I got tired of typing long commands and folder names and wrote my own
GUIto drive the process. Now I'm down to the bare minimum of
keystrokes for the process.

But still, the new phone I have on order would have been a large
supercomputer shop in the '70s.

What did you order? My S5 is overdue for a replacement.
I mainly use it for driving and photos/movies.

Galaxy Note S20 Ultra with half a terabyte. I like being able to
scribble.
I'm hoping that it will actually give me reliable reception, which my
5 year old cheap ZTE doesn't. That's becoming an issue because work
wants to authenticate to a phone instead of using a token going
forward. Everything I'm reading says that the Galaxy Notes are
particularly good in that regard and if I'm spending that much anyway
I may as well get all the bells and whistles.
It's gross overkill for my needs, but . . .

Thanks.
Not sure I want something that large.
My current phone is 5.5 x 2.3.
That thing is 6.48 x 3.04.
Just looked around, the S10e is supposed to be their small phone,
5.9 x 2.75.
Not impressed.
I might be changing brands.

My current one is 5.8 x 2.8. The new one is taller but not that much
wider.

[Questor]

Post by J. Clarke
But still, the new phone I have on order would have been a large
supercomputer shop in the '70s.

Heh. I got this image of a raised-floor, air-conditioned computer room, filled
with spinning disk and tape drives, chattering line printers, and the like.
Operators coming and going, mounting tapes, bursting listings, etc. In the
center of all this frenzied activity on a long table, running the whole show, is
a smart phone with a single USB cable snaking from it.

[Charlie Gibbs]

Post by Questor

Post by J. Clarke
But still, the new phone I have on order would have been a large
supercomputer shop in the '70s.

Heh. I got this image of a raised-floor, air-conditioned computer room,
filled with spinning disk and tape drives, chattering line printers, and
the like. Operators coming and going, mounting tapes, bursting listings,
etc. In the center of all this frenzied activity on a long table, running
the whole show, is a smart phone with a single USB cable snaking from it.

Nah, it'll use a wi-fi connection to a router hidden in one of the cabinets.

Everything will run just fine until the phone's battery dies...

[J. Clarke]

Post by Charlie Gibbs

Post by Questor

Post by J. Clarke
But still, the new phone I have on order would have been a large
supercomputer shop in the '70s.

Heh. I got this image of a raised-floor, air-conditioned computer room,
filled with spinning disk and tape drives, chattering line printers, and
the like. Operators coming and going, mounting tapes, bursting listings,
etc. In the center of all this frenzied activity on a long table, running
the whole show, is a smart phone with a single USB cable snaking from it.

Nah, it'll use a wi-fi connection to a router hidden in one of the cabinets.
Everything will run just fine until the phone's battery dies...

Just remember that that phone has the equivalent of 5,000 3330s in it,
so much of that storage would be redundant, unless perhaps you're
using it for backup.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 21:14:06 -0400

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Charlie Gibbs

On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 08:29:24 -0400, J. Clarke <jclarke.

Post by J. Clarke
But still, the new phone I have on order would have been a large
supercomputer shop in the '70s.

Heh. I got this image of a raised-floor, air-conditioned computer
room, filled with spinning disk and tape drives, chattering line
printers, and the like. Operators coming and going, mounting tapes,
bursting listings, etc. In the center of all this frenzied activity
on a long table, running the whole show, is a smart phone with a
single USB cable snaking from it.

Nah, it'll use a wi-fi connection to a router hidden in one of the cabinets.
Everything will run just fine until the phone's battery dies...

Just remember that that phone has the equivalent of 5,000 3330s in it,
so much of that storage would be redundant, unless perhaps you're
using it for backup.

Yeah no disk packs but if the phone is doing DP work then the tapes
might be the data feeds and reports to external systems. You'd need a lot of
tape drives going flat out to keep that phone busy, it could also drive a
ridiculous number of 1403s with suitable interfacing (channel boxes with
wifi dongles perhaps).

[Charlie Gibbs]

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Charlie Gibbs

Post by Questor

Post by J. Clarke
But still, the new phone I have on order would have been a large
supercomputer shop in the '70s.

Heh. I got this image of a raised-floor, air-conditioned computer room,
filled with spinning disk and tape drives, chattering line printers, and
the like. Operators coming and going, mounting tapes, bursting listings,
etc. In the center of all this frenzied activity on a long table, running
the whole show, is a smart phone with a single USB cable snaking from it.

Nah, it'll use a wi-fi connection to a router hidden in one of the cabinets.
Everything will run just fine until the phone's battery dies...

Just remember that that phone has the equivalent of 5,000 3330s in it,
so much of that storage would be redundant, unless perhaps you're
using it for backup.

That reminds me of the one I saw in rec.humor.funny years ago.
Someone mentioned an article about miniaturization which stated
that soon you'd have a 3090 in your wristwatch. "Great," our guy
observed, "you can boot MVS on it and the first thing it'll do is
ask you the time."

[Bob Eager]

That reminds me of the one I saw in rec.humor.funny years ago. Someone
mentioned an article about miniaturization which stated that soon you'd
have a 3090 in your wristwatch. "Great," our guy observed, "you can
boot MVS on it and the first thing it'll do is ask you the time."

I ran VAX/VMS on my phone, some years ago. Someone had ported SIMH, but
then it broke becuase it depended on some other broken app.

[J. Clarke]

Post by Bob Eager

That reminds me of the one I saw in rec.humor.funny years ago. Someone
mentioned an article about miniaturization which stated that soon you'd
have a 3090 in your wristwatch. "Great," our guy observed, "you can
boot MVS on it and the first thing it'll do is ask you the time."

I ran VAX/VMS on my phone, some years ago. Someone had ported SIMH, but
then it broke becuase it depended on some other broken app.

I understand that it actually is possible to run Z/OS on an iPhone.
There hasn't been an Android port of Hercules though, at least none
that I can find.

[Jorgen Grahn]

On Tue, 2020-09-15, Dan Espen wrote:
...

Post by Dan Espen
I used to unload photos from my devices using my own command line tools.
I got tired of typing long commands and folder names and wrote my own
GUIto drive the process. Now I'm down to the bare minimum of
keystrokes for the process.

Another option is to use a shell with searchable history (bash, tcsh,
zsh). My command line for doing that is

mount /camera && \
rsync -av /camera/dcim/1??_pana/ ~/photo/tmp/ && \
umount /camera

And I type ^Rrsync<RET> to run it, because typically my most recent
rsync invocation was when I did this last time.

/Jorgen

[songbird]

Post by gareth evans
Having cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 with no OS, and thus
was in complete control of the machine, what I seek is an OS
that runs only the programs that I wish, and that does not
have shedloads of daemons and background processes that I did not
launch.
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

i've been using debian for quite a long time and you can
install that as a server and then add whatever window
environment you want on top of it.

my current system does use systemd, but i have a lot of
stuff masked because i don't use it.

there are ways of using debian and not having large parts
of systemd, but i don't really care as long as it works and
currently it does so i leave it alone.

my desktop is MATE and that is pretty simple and does what
i want it to do. lightdm is the desktop manager i like.

there are plenty of other windowin environments out there
though i just haven't really cared to get that much into
looking for something else when what i have is working.

years ago the Gnome desktop was what i liked and then it
went crazy with things i didn't like so i switched to kde
and then kde did the same thing so i ended up finding MATE
and have stuck with that since then.

not sure this is the answer you were after, but that's
what's up with me.


songbird

[Peter Flass]

Post by songbird

Post by gareth evans
Having cut my teeth on a naked PDP11 with no OS, and thus
was in complete control of the machine, what I seek is an OS
that runs only the programs that I wish, and that does not
have shedloads of daemons and background processes that I did not
launch.
So, an OS with Internet and printer support, a graphics window package
and bugger-all else?

i've been using debian for quite a long time and you can
install that as a server and then add whatever window
environment you want on top of it.
my current system does use systemd, but i have a lot of
stuff masked because i don't use it.
there are ways of using debian and not having large parts
of systemd, but i don't really care as long as it works and
currently it does so i leave it alone.
my desktop is MATE and that is pretty simple and does what
i want it to do. lightdm is the desktop manager i like.
there are plenty of other windowin environments out there
though i just haven't really cared to get that much into
looking for something else when what i have is working.
years ago the Gnome desktop was what i liked and then it
went crazy with things i didn't like so i switched to kde
and then kde did the same thing so i ended up finding MATE
and have stuck with that since then.

Me too. I hear Cinnamon is pretty good, too, but I have no reason to try to
find out.

Post by songbird
not sure this is the answer you were after, but that's
what's up with me.
songbird

[songbird]

Peter Flass wrote:
...

Post by Peter Flass
Me too. I hear Cinnamon is pretty good, too, but I have no reason to try to
find out.

i must admit i do pine for the good ol' days when i
was programming on the Univac and only had the few
devices to cope with. :) the assembler language
spoiled me for anything else.

eventually i later on became the system programmer
for that machine as they were trying to get rid of it
and eventually did replace it. i never knew or planned
to get that involved.

the conversion was fun, to a mini-computer, once that
was winding down was when i finally left after being
there for 15yrs.

so from my little corner project off to the side of
the larger programs i was able to observe the full life
cycle of my program going from inception to then
eventually being replaced.

i have no idea what hardware they're running on these
days. hard to believe i've almost been gone from there
for almost 25yrs. seems like just yesterday... :)


songbird