Discussion:
history of the "wiki" type repository
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Dallas
2020-09-29 17:57:15 UTC
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At Texas Instruments as early as 1980 we had a system named TIOLR that was very much like a "wiki".

You could put information in a page structure and it was generally universally accessible by
employees using T.I's "homebrew" version of the IBM 3270 terminal they had installed around the world.
It was very popular within TI.

Here is a snippet from
https://www.computer.org/csdl/pds/api/csdl/proceedings/download-article/12OmNwtWfPN/pdf

The primary system that is used with TI for electronic
filing is referred to as TIOLR (TI On-Line Reporting).
TIOLR was originally conceived solely as a cost effective
alternative to printing. This system was designed as a hierarchical reporting
structure accessible on-line by any terminal in the network and therefore offered
additional capabilities. Some of the current applications are computer
generated reports, electronic newspaper, reference information, systems documentation,
and it is also used as an input mechanism for data collection functions.

( as linked from https://www.computer.org/csdl/proceedings-article/afips/1980/50880515/12OmNwtWfPN )
Scott Lurndal
2020-09-29 18:16:43 UTC
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Post by Dallas
At Texas Instruments as early as 1980 we had a system named TIOLR that was very much like a "wiki".
You could put information in a page structure and it was generally universally accessible by
employees using T.I's "homebrew" version of the IBM 3270 terminal they had installed around the world.
It was very popular within TI.
Sounds like it had functionality similar to PLATO's NOTES subsystem (1973),
which was a precursor to USENET newsgroups.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLATO_%28computer_system%29
Dallas
2020-09-29 20:17:12 UTC
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Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Dallas
At Texas Instruments as early as 1980 we had a system named TIOLR that was very much like a "wiki".
You could put information in a page structure and it was generally universally accessible by
employees using T.I's "homebrew" version of the IBM 3270 terminal they had installed around the world.
It was very popular within TI.
Sounds like it had functionality similar to PLATO's NOTES subsystem (1973),
which was a precursor to USENET newsgroups.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLATO_%28computer_system%29
I had some experience with the PLATO terminals at UT Austin in that 1973 timeframe.
I did not program anything for it, but it was available.

At that time I was trying to put together what I called
GRACL (GRaphics Assisted Computer Learning) that had a small resemblance to the
HTML markup language for document creation.

I never finished it, but it was fun programming to the graphics devices available at that time.

About ten years later on I had the fortune to attend several SIGGRAPH conferences.

TIOLR was just text based at the time I used it. Maybe some "ASCII Art" in some pages.
Questor
2020-09-30 20:36:47 UTC
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Post by Dallas
At Texas Instruments as early as 1980 we had a system named TIOLR that was very much like a "wiki".
You could put information in a page structure and it was generally universally accessible by
employees using T.I's "homebrew" version of the IBM 3270 terminal they had installed around the world.
It was very popular within TI.
Here is a snippet from
https://www.computer.org/csdl/pds/api/csdl/proceedings/download-article/12OmNwtWfPN/pdf
The primary system that is used with TI for electronic
filing is referred to as TIOLR (TI On-Line Reporting).
TIOLR was originally conceived solely as a cost effective
alternative to printing. This system was designed as a hierarchical reporting
structure accessible on-line by any terminal in the network and therefore offered
additional capabilities. Some of the current applications are computer
generated reports, electronic newspaper, reference information, systems documentation,
and it is also used as an input mechanism for data collection functions.
( as linked from https://www.computer.org/csdl/proceedings-article/afips/1980/50880515/12OmNwtWfPN )
If you think hypertext systems can be considered to be "wiki-type" repositories,
then their history starts with Vannevar Bush's seminal essay in the January
1945 issue of The Atlantic, "As We May Think," wherein he proposes a system he
called Memex. In addition to links to various information sources, it also had
the ability to include commentary. Bush is widely accepted as the conceptual
father of hypertext.

Ted Nelson and Doug Englebart both started working on computer-based hypertext
systems in the early 1960s, but neither finished a working prototype until
several years later. At that point the projects start multiplying, and in the
early 1970s one of the most famous, PLATO, emerges. Of course, there's a
wikipedia page on the topic:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_hypertext

DEC had Notes and Notesfiles. Notes was originally a "midnight" programming
project by a VMS software engineer. He shared it and its popularity grew in
conjunction with the rapid growth of DEC's internal network. Eventually it was
recognized as such a useful tool that it became an official product. I was
using Notes at DEC in 1982, so I suspect its creation dates to 1981, or perhaps
slightly earlier.

Notesfiles are something like an organized bulletin board. They have a
collection of base notes. Each base note can have a linear string of replies.
A user can create a new base note or reply to an existing one. Each note
contains the network address of the poster, their user-settable identification
string, a date/time stamp, and the body of their post. The Notes program keeps
track of when a Notesfile was last accessed, and can show the user all the new
notes that have been added since that time. The files themselves reside on
specific (Vax) machines; users open them by supplying the files' network
address. It's a fairly simple system; its power lies in the network.

In the years before the computing model was a PC on every workers's desk, the
vast majority of DEC employees had a terminal connected to a timesharing system
instead. In the early 1980s, the company started connecting all the disparate
subnets together into one interconnected whole. By the middle of the decade,
hundreds of PDP-10s, PDP-11s, and VAXes were on the company-wide Easynet, and
thus tens of thousands of employees had ready access to the growing number of
Notesfiles.

There were Notesfiles dedicated to many different topics, both personal and
professional. There were Notesfiles devoted to car repair, trivia questions,
and restaurant reviews. There were also Notesfiles for various technical
issues. Eventually many product groups created their own "official" Notesfile,
where people could get technical help, ask questions, and suggest new features.
These tech-oriented Notesfiles, with their collection of tips and techniques,
can obviously be classified as a "wiki-type" repository.
Dallas
2020-09-30 21:20:06 UTC
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Post by Questor
Post by Dallas
At Texas Instruments as early as 1980 we had a system named TIOLR that was very much like a "wiki".
You could put information in a page structure and it was generally universally accessible by
employees using T.I's "homebrew" version of the IBM 3270 terminal they had installed around the world.
It was very popular within TI.
Here is a snippet from
https://www.computer.org/csdl/pds/api/csdl/proceedings/download-article/12OmNwtWfPN/pdf
The primary system that is used with TI for electronic
filing is referred to as TIOLR (TI On-Line Reporting).
TIOLR was originally conceived solely as a cost effective
alternative to printing. This system was designed as a hierarchical reporting
structure accessible on-line by any terminal in the network and therefore offered
additional capabilities. Some of the current applications are computer
generated reports, electronic newspaper, reference information, systems documentation,
and it is also used as an input mechanism for data collection functions.
( as linked from https://www.computer.org/csdl/proceedings-article/afips/1980/50880515/12OmNwtWfPN )
If you think hypertext systems can be considered to be "wiki-type" repositories,
then their history starts with Vannevar Bush's seminal essay in the January
1945 issue of The Atlantic, "As We May Think," wherein he proposes a system he
called Memex. In addition to links to various information sources, it also had
the ability to include commentary. Bush is widely accepted as the conceptual
father of hypertext.
Ted Nelson and Doug Englebart both started working on computer-based hypertext
systems in the early 1960s, but neither finished a working prototype until
several years later. At that point the projects start multiplying, and in the
early 1970s one of the most famous, PLATO, emerges. Of course, there's a
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_hypertext
DEC had Notes and Notesfiles. Notes was originally a "midnight" programming
project by a VMS software engineer. He shared it and its popularity grew in
conjunction with the rapid growth of DEC's internal network. Eventually it was
recognized as such a useful tool that it became an official product. I was
using Notes at DEC in 1982, so I suspect its creation dates to 1981, or perhaps
slightly earlier.
Notesfiles are something like an organized bulletin board. They have a
collection of base notes. Each base note can have a linear string of replies.
A user can create a new base note or reply to an existing one. Each note
contains the network address of the poster, their user-settable identification
string, a date/time stamp, and the body of their post. The Notes program keeps
track of when a Notesfile was last accessed, and can show the user all the new
notes that have been added since that time. The files themselves reside on
specific (Vax) machines; users open them by supplying the files' network
address. It's a fairly simple system; its power lies in the network.
In the years before the computing model was a PC on every workers's desk, the
vast majority of DEC employees had a terminal connected to a timesharing system
instead. In the early 1980s, the company started connecting all the disparate
subnets together into one interconnected whole. By the middle of the decade,
hundreds of PDP-10s, PDP-11s, and VAXes were on the company-wide Easynet, and
thus tens of thousands of employees had ready access to the growing number of
Notesfiles.
There were Notesfiles dedicated to many different topics, both personal and
professional. There were Notesfiles devoted to car repair, trivia questions,
and restaurant reviews. There were also Notesfiles for various technical
issues. Eventually many product groups created their own "official" Notesfile,
where people could get technical help, ask questions, and suggest new features.
These tech-oriented Notesfiles, with their collection of tips and techniques,
can obviously be classified as a "wiki-type" repository.
One of the notable recordings is the "Mother of All Demos" that Doug Englebart performed in 1968
http://www.invisiblerevolution.net/
http://www.1968demo.org/ (no sound during the opening slides)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mother_of_All_Demos

I remember seeing Ted Nelson at SIGGRAPH conferences in the early 1980's.
Wired Magazine did an article on Ted's Project Xanadu
https://www.wired.com/1995/06/xanadu/
Here is an interview of Ted Nelson in August 2014
https://twit.tv/shows/triangulation/episodes/164
Dallas
2020-09-30 22:03:07 UTC
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Post by Dallas
One of the notable recordings is the "Mother of All Demos" that Doug Englebart performed in 1968
    http://www.invisiblerevolution.net/
    http://www.1968demo.org/   (no sound during the opening slides)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mother_of_All_Demos
Here is a very nicely produced overview of selected content of Doug Englebart's "Mother of All
Demos" from 1968

Charlie Gibbs
2020-10-01 04:47:03 UTC
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On 2020-09-30, Questor <***@only.tnx> wrote:

[history of hypertext snipped]

Nice summary. I still have copies of Ted Nelson's "Computer Lib /
Dream Machines" (both original and revised). It was wonderful to
see the Internet become the culmination of those dreams - but even
more depressing to see how it's being enclosed into the little boxes
owned by today's monopolies. This is the antithesis of what these
pioneers envisioned.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <***@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.
J. Clarke
2020-10-01 04:55:03 UTC
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Post by Charlie Gibbs
[history of hypertext snipped]
Nice summary. I still have copies of Ted Nelson's "Computer Lib /
Dream Machines" (both original and revised). It was wonderful to
see the Internet become the culmination of those dreams - but even
more depressing to see how it's being enclosed into the little boxes
owned by today's monopolies. This is the antithesis of what these
pioneers envisioned.
It annoys me no end that I have a supercomputer in my shirt pocket but
am nonetheless constrained for many purposes to running on an
overloaded server at Microsoft or Google or wherever due to corporate
greed and rapaciousness.
Jorgen Grahn
2020-10-01 21:06:25 UTC
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Post by J. Clarke
Post by Charlie Gibbs
[history of hypertext snipped]
Nice summary. I still have copies of Ted Nelson's "Computer Lib /
Dream Machines" (both original and revised). It was wonderful to
see the Internet become the culmination of those dreams - but even
more depressing to see how it's being enclosed into the little boxes
owned by today's monopolies. This is the antithesis of what these
pioneers envisioned.
It annoys me no end that I have a supercomputer in my shirt pocket but
am nonetheless constrained for many purposes to running on an
overloaded server at Microsoft or Google or wherever due to corporate
greed and rapaciousness.
Idea for an SF story: After WWIII, the Internet is gone along with
society in general, but a lot of the survivors still have their
smartphones. So they write programs which generate dummy
notifications, dummy advertisements and dummy spam. They trade their
best ad simulators, their best spam generators, and so on. It never
occurs to them to do anything /useful/ with their phones.

(Idea probably stolen from Philip K. Dick, "Pay For the Printer" and
"The Days of Perky Pat".)

/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
J. Clarke
2020-10-01 21:15:12 UTC
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Post by Jorgen Grahn
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Charlie Gibbs
[history of hypertext snipped]
Nice summary. I still have copies of Ted Nelson's "Computer Lib /
Dream Machines" (both original and revised). It was wonderful to
see the Internet become the culmination of those dreams - but even
more depressing to see how it's being enclosed into the little boxes
owned by today's monopolies. This is the antithesis of what these
pioneers envisioned.
It annoys me no end that I have a supercomputer in my shirt pocket but
am nonetheless constrained for many purposes to running on an
overloaded server at Microsoft or Google or wherever due to corporate
greed and rapaciousness.
Idea for an SF story: After WWIII, the Internet is gone along with
society in general, but a lot of the survivors still have their
smartphones. So they write programs which generate dummy
notifications, dummy advertisements and dummy spam. They trade their
best ad simulators, their best spam generators, and so on. It never
occurs to them to do anything /useful/ with their phones.
(Idea probably stolen from Philip K. Dick, "Pay For the Printer" and
"The Days of Perky Pat".)
People being people it would not surprise me if such a thing happened,
however I think the Internet being brought back up piecemeal could
also have potential.
Dallas
2020-10-02 14:23:27 UTC
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Post by Jorgen Grahn
Idea for an SF story: After WWIII, the Internet is gone along with
society in general, but a lot of the survivors still have their
smartphones. So they write programs which generate dummy
notifications, dummy advertisements and dummy spam. They trade their
best ad simulators, their best spam generators, and so on. It never
occurs to them to do anything /useful/ with their phones.
(Idea probably stolen from Philip K. Dick, "Pay For the Printer" and
"The Days of Perky Pat".)
People being people it would not surprise me if such a thing happened,
however I think the Internet being brought back up piecemeal could
also have potential.
That makes me think about the speculation that one of the design criteria for ArpaNet was to be
able to establish rerouting after a WWIII type event and maintain communications between surviving
networks.

I think this has been debunked, but I am not sure about that.

Bob Eager
2020-10-01 13:18:33 UTC
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Post by Charlie Gibbs
[history of hypertext snipped]
Nice summary. I still have copies of Ted Nelson's "Computer Lib / Dream
Machines" (both original and revised). It was wonderful to see the
Internet become the culmination of those dreams - but even more
depressing to see how it's being enclosed into the little boxes owned by
today's monopolies. This is the antithesis of what these pioneers
envisioned.
Here's another. I have the source code for this somewhere.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guide_(hypertext)
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Chris
2020-10-01 14:02:17 UTC
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Post by Charlie Gibbs
[history of hypertext snipped]
Nice summary. I still have copies of Ted Nelson's "Computer Lib /
Dream Machines" (both original and revised). It was wonderful to
see the Internet become the culmination of those dreams - but even
more depressing to see how it's being enclosed into the little boxes
owned by today's monopolies. This is the antithesis of what these
pioneers envisioned.
Haven't been much impressed by Apple since the Apple II, but they
had an interesting sounding product called cardfile (?) , or similar
which looked like an early example of hyperlinking. Never used it,
but have the manual somewhere...

Chris
Dallas
2020-10-01 14:43:28 UTC
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Post by Chris
Post by Charlie Gibbs
[history of hypertext snipped]
Nice summary.  I still have copies of Ted Nelson's "Computer Lib /
Dream Machines" (both original and revised).  It was wonderful to
see the Internet become the culmination of those dreams - but even
more depressing to see how it's being enclosed into the little boxes
owned by today's monopolies.  This is the antithesis of what these
pioneers envisioned.
Haven't been much impressed by Apple since the Apple II, but they
had an interesting sounding product called cardfile (?) , or similar
which looked like an early example of hyperlinking. Never used it,
but have the manual somewhere...
Chris
Probably HyperCard

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperCard
Chris
2020-10-01 15:02:40 UTC
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Post by Dallas
Post by Chris
Post by Charlie Gibbs
[history of hypertext snipped]
Nice summary. I still have copies of Ted Nelson's "Computer Lib /
Dream Machines" (both original and revised). It was wonderful to
see the Internet become the culmination of those dreams - but even
more depressing to see how it's being enclosed into the little boxes
owned by today's monopolies. This is the antithesis of what these
pioneers envisioned.
Haven't been much impressed by Apple since the Apple II, but they
had an interesting sounding product called cardfile (?) , or similar
which looked like an early example of hyperlinking. Never used it,
but have the manual somewhere...
Chris
Probably HyperCard
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperCard
Yes, that was the one. Thought it was pretty neat, but never
had the chance to use it. A tree structured database...

Chris
Dallas
2020-10-01 14:30:22 UTC
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Post by Charlie Gibbs
[history of hypertext snipped]
Nice summary. I still have copies of Ted Nelson's "Computer Lib /
Dream Machines" (both original and revised). It was wonderful to
see the Internet become the culmination of those dreams - but even
more depressing to see how it's being enclosed into the little boxes
owned by today's monopolies. This is the antithesis of what these
pioneers envisioned.
The first book by Ted Nelson I read was his 1977 book "The Home Computer Revolution".

I discovered "Computer Lib" later on.

There was electricity in the air in throughout the 1970's on the subject of personal use of computers.
Chris
2020-10-01 15:10:45 UTC
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Post by Dallas
Post by Charlie Gibbs
[history of hypertext snipped]
Nice summary. I still have copies of Ted Nelson's "Computer Lib /
Dream Machines" (both original and revised). It was wonderful to
see the Internet become the culmination of those dreams - but even
more depressing to see how it's being enclosed into the little boxes
owned by today's monopolies. This is the antithesis of what these
pioneers envisioned.
The first book by Ted Nelson I read was his 1977 book "The Home Computer Revolution".
I discovered "Computer Lib" later on.
There was electricity in the air in throughout the 1970's on the subject
of personal use of computers.
Indeed. Coming from a hardware, not compsci background, like being
on the crest of a wave with my first system, once I figured out just
how powerful programmed solutions could be.

"Music in the cafes and bards, and revolution in the air".
(Blood on the Tracks, Bob Dtlan :-)...

Chris
Jorgen Grahn
2020-10-01 21:15:55 UTC
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Post by Charlie Gibbs
[history of hypertext snipped]
Nice summary. I still have copies of Ted Nelson's "Computer Lib /
Dream Machines" (both original and revised). It was wonderful to
see the Internet become the culmination of those dreams - but even
more depressing to see how it's being enclosed into the little boxes
owned by today's monopolies. This is the antithesis of what these
pioneers envisioned.
It's odd how slowly it happened. I remember believing in the Internet
in the early 1990s. And walled gardens like AOL /did/ die off.

Then time passed and somehow we ended up where we are now.

/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
John Levine
2020-10-01 23:58:09 UTC
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Post by Charlie Gibbs
[history of hypertext snipped]
Nice summary. I still have copies of Ted Nelson's "Computer Lib /
Dream Machines" (both original and revised). It was wonderful to
see the Internet become the culmination of those dreams -
Well, sort of. Ted was not pleased to see how Tim B-L cut down his
design to make it easier to build. The original plan was that all
links are bidirectional and you can link to and embed arbitrary chunks
of other documents.

I still have no idea how you could implement that at scale. but it
would be a rather different experience.
--
Regards,
John Levine, ***@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
2020-10-02 06:00:09 UTC
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On Thu, 1 Oct 2020 23:58:09 -0000 (UTC)
Post by John Levine
Post by Charlie Gibbs
[history of hypertext snipped]
Nice summary. I still have copies of Ted Nelson's "Computer Lib /
Dream Machines" (both original and revised). It was wonderful to
see the Internet become the culmination of those dreams -
Well, sort of. Ted was not pleased to see how Tim B-L cut down his
design to make it easier to build. The original plan was that all
links are bidirectional and you can link to and embed arbitrary chunks
of other documents.
That got implemented as HyperG/HyperWave[1] which I used at a PPOE
to implement a document store and discussion service[2] - the second time
round. The first implementation was with Apache and INN but the PTB wanted
to use HyperWave.

When I first saw Hypercard I started to speculate on a useful
distributed version where document stores would have associated link stores
containing a copy of every link to or from the store of documents - each
link end specifying a portion of a document at a store. I pottered on and
off writing notes on it for quite some time never able to properly solve
the distributed transaction problems inherent in it - it was still a pile of
disorganised notes when a friend told me to try telnet www.cern.ch and that
was the end of that.

FWIW HyperG/HyperWave had no better solutions for the problems than
I did - they weren't good enough IMHO.
Post by John Levine
I still have no idea how you could implement that at scale. but it
would be a rather different experience.
Link validation in Hyperwave was a painful experience that made
page changes agonisingly slow.

[1] <https://foresight.org/WebEnhance/HyperG.html>
[2] What they really wanted was a wiki but none of us came up with the idea
so we built what we managed to come up with (file upload in HTML was new
then).
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Scott Lurndal
2020-10-01 15:46:41 UTC
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Post by Questor
Post by Dallas
At Texas Instruments as early as 1980 we had a system named TIOLR that was very much like a "wiki".
DEC had Notes and Notesfiles. Notes was originally a "midnight" programming
project by a VMS software engineer. He shared it and its popularity grew in
conjunction with the rapid growth of DEC's internal network. Eventually it was
recognized as such a useful tool that it became an official product. I was
using Notes at DEC in 1982, so I suspect its creation dates to 1981, or perhaps
slightly earlier.
I was pretty sure at the time that DEC's Notes/Notesfiles were based directly
on the PLATO Notes subsystem.
Questor
2020-10-01 20:21:46 UTC
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Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Questor
Post by Dallas
At Texas Instruments as early as 1980 we had a system named TIOLR that was very much like a "wiki".
DEC had Notes and Notesfiles. Notes was originally a "midnight" programming
project by a VMS software engineer. He shared it and its popularity grew in
conjunction with the rapid growth of DEC's internal network. Eventually it was
recognized as such a useful tool that it became an official product. I was
using Notes at DEC in 1982, so I suspect its creation dates to 1981, or perhaps
slightly earlier.
I was pretty sure at the time that DEC's Notes/Notesfiles were based directly
on the PLATO Notes subsystem.
Dunno, but it's certainly quite possible. It's been publically acknowledged
that DEC's Notes was part of the inspiration for Lotus Notes.
Scott Lurndal
2020-10-01 20:43:20 UTC
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Post by Questor
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Questor
Post by Dallas
At Texas Instruments as early as 1980 we had a system named TIOLR that was very much like a "wiki".
DEC had Notes and Notesfiles. Notes was originally a "midnight" programming
project by a VMS software engineer. He shared it and its popularity grew in
conjunction with the rapid growth of DEC's internal network. Eventually it was
recognized as such a useful tool that it became an official product. I was
using Notes at DEC in 1982, so I suspect its creation dates to 1981, or perhaps
slightly earlier.
I was pretty sure at the time that DEC's Notes/Notesfiles were based directly
on the PLATO Notes subsystem.
Dunno, but it's certainly quite possible. It's been publically acknowledged
that DEC's Notes was part of the inspiration for Lotus Notes.
"PLATO Notes, created by David R. Woolley in 1973, was among the world's first online
message boards, and years later became the direct progenitor of Lotus Notes"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLATO_%28computer_system%29
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