Discussion:
HP splits, again.
(too old to reply)
Michael Black
2014-10-07 19:21:36 UTC
Permalink
I've seen at least three stories about how HP is splitting up,
consumer equipment to one company, "mainframe" (in a generic sense)
going to another branch.

One article mentioned an example of this happening before, when IBM sold
off it's small computer section, to Lenova.

But I've yet to see any article mentioning that HP is only half the
company it once was, since they already split, the traditional test
equipment now going under a new name, the HP name going to the small
computer business.

I almost bought an HP tablet, that summer a few years ago when they
suddenly were being sold off for a hundred dollars. But they went too
fast. HP had barely made an entrance, it was only a few months old, and
then they backed out. On the other hand, I've seen in the flyers, HP
tablets, so they must have gotten back into that some time later.

Michael
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
2014-10-07 19:34:38 UTC
Permalink
EDS was started by former IBM salesman ... folklore at Boeing in the
late 60s ... he was on the Boeing account when 360 was announced at
Boeing walked in with an order that made him the highest paid IBMer that
year (on straight commission; Boeing claimed that he knew very little
about 360 at the time, they just handed him the order). This supposedly
led to IBM converting from straight sales commission to sales quota the
next year ... given sales objective for the year ... and compenstation
based on ratio of actual sales to quota. Boeing gave him additional
orders and he made annual quota by end of Jan. ... at which time they
"adjusted" his quota. This contributed to him leaving IBM and starting
EDS.

I've mentioned 1990 C4 taskforce by the us auto industry looking to
remake themselves to be competitive with foreign imports (supposedly
decade earlier import quotas were to reduce competition and give them
enormous profits to completely remake themselves ... but they pocketed
the money and kept business as usual). Major part of C4 taskforce was to
heavily leverage dataprocessing to make the business significantly more
efficient ... and as part of that they invited reps from various IT
vendors to participate (however, recent events show that C4 didn't work
either, just continued business as usual) misc. past posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#auto.c4.taskforce

supposedly in line with that paradigm, GM buys EDS (1984) ... supposedly
to leverage their mainframe dataprocessing expertise to make GM business
significantly more efficient. However, it appears to have turned into
more of a case of outsourcing traditional dataprocessing ... and they
later spin off EDS (1996) ... with long term contracts for traditional
dataprocessing outsourcing.

HP was bulking up ... acquiring compaq ... which had previously required
some amount of DEC and Tandem. Then HP also acquires EDS.
http://www8.hp.com/us/en/hp-news/press-release.html?id=169924

but then (from 2008 acquisition by HP to 2012)

How did EDS lose $8bn in value in four years?
http://www.computerweekly.com/news/2240161906/How-did-EDS-lose-8bn-in-value-in-four-years

the above says EDS was set up in 1962 ... predating 360 ... so Boeing
folklore appeared to confuse EDS founder with somebody else.

EDS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Data_Systems
--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
Joe Pfeiffer
2014-10-07 19:48:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Black
I've seen at least three stories about how HP is splitting up,
consumer equipment to one company, "mainframe" (in a generic sense)
going to another branch.
One article mentioned an example of this happening before, when IBM
sold off it's small computer section, to Lenova.
But I've yet to see any article mentioning that HP is only half the
company it once was, since they already split, the traditional test
equipment now going under a new name, the HP name going to the small
computer business.
I almost bought an HP tablet, that summer a few years ago when they
suddenly were being sold off for a hundred dollars. But they went too
fast. HP had barely made an entrance, it was only a few months old,
and then they backed out. On the other hand, I've seen in the flyers,
HP tablets, so they must have gotten back into that some time later.
And now Agilent (the former heart of HP) is also splitting in half.
Osmium
2014-10-07 20:14:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Michael Black
I've seen at least three stories about how HP is splitting up,
consumer equipment to one company, "mainframe" (in a generic sense)
going to another branch.
One article mentioned an example of this happening before, when IBM
sold off it's small computer section, to Lenova.
But I've yet to see any article mentioning that HP is only half the
company it once was, since they already split, the traditional test
equipment now going under a new name, the HP name going to the small
computer business.
I almost bought an HP tablet, that summer a few years ago when they
suddenly were being sold off for a hundred dollars. But they went too
fast. HP had barely made an entrance, it was only a few months old,
and then they backed out. On the other hand, I've seen in the flyers,
HP tablets, so they must have gotten back into that some time later.
And now Agilent (the former heart of HP) is also splitting in half.
Years ago, synergy was the catchy sounding word to show that combining
things was good, one of my favorites: Univac computers and New Holland hay
balers in Sperry Rand Corp.

Now, the in thing to do seems to be to break apart the pieces. I can't find
any equally appealing word for this process. Stay tuned to see what the
word mavens come up with.

Actually, I don't even know for a fact that New Holland actually made hay
balers, I just like the imagery.
Scott Lurndal
2014-10-07 20:48:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Osmium
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Michael Black
I've seen at least three stories about how HP is splitting up,
consumer equipment to one company, "mainframe" (in a generic sense)
going to another branch.
One article mentioned an example of this happening before, when IBM
sold off it's small computer section, to Lenova.
But I've yet to see any article mentioning that HP is only half the
company it once was, since they already split, the traditional test
equipment now going under a new name, the HP name going to the small
computer business.
I almost bought an HP tablet, that summer a few years ago when they
suddenly were being sold off for a hundred dollars. But they went too
fast. HP had barely made an entrance, it was only a few months old,
and then they backed out. On the other hand, I've seen in the flyers,
HP tablets, so they must have gotten back into that some time later.
And now Agilent (the former heart of HP) is also splitting in half.
Years ago, synergy was the catchy sounding word to show that combining
things was good, one of my favorites: Univac computers and New Holland hay
balers in Sperry Rand Corp.
Now, the in thing to do seems to be to break apart the pieces. I can't find
any equally appealing word for this process. Stay tuned to see what the
word mavens come up with.
Actually, I don't even know for a fact that New Holland actually made hay
balers, I just like the imagery.
They did, but combines would perhaps have been a more cromulent example.
Walter Bushell
2014-10-07 22:43:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Osmium
Years ago, synergy was the catchy sounding word to show that combining
things was good, one of my favorites: Univac computers and New Holland hay
balers in Sperry Rand Corp.
Now, the in thing to do seems to be to break apart the pieces. I can't find
any equally appealing word for this process. Stay tuned to see what the
word mavens come up with.
Actually, I don't even know for a fact that New Holland actually made hay
balers, I just like the imagery.
Well, you see there is money to be made putting companies together and
taking them apart, but it's best to do it when everybody else is doing
it as if you are splitting where the others are joining, you have to
answer some awkward questions. Albeit everybody knows the game is
rigged and the fix is in.
--
Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greed. Me.
greymausg
2014-10-08 17:04:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Walter Bushell
Post by Osmium
Years ago, synergy was the catchy sounding word to show that combining
things was good, one of my favorites: Univac computers and New Holland hay
balers in Sperry Rand Corp.
Now, the in thing to do seems to be to break apart the pieces. I can't find
any equally appealing word for this process. Stay tuned to see what the
word mavens come up with.
Actually, I don't even know for a fact that New Holland actually made hay
balers, I just like the imagery.
Well, you see there is money to be made putting companies together and
taking them apart, but it's best to do it when everybody else is doing
it as if you are splitting where the others are joining, you have to
answer some awkward questions. Albeit everybody knows the game is
rigged and the fix is in.
"Synergy" is one direction. "Returning to core values", is the other.
(New holland made balers once.) I think that nowadays the design of
things are done by commpanies with expertise , then the actual manufacturing
is done by others, sometime in layers, on down, and then tax avoidence
is implemented at whatever level is needed. China thrived on the bottom
layers of manufacturing, but is building up higher expertise.
--
maus

Will rant for food. Alcohol is a food.
john james
2014-10-08 19:08:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by greymausg
Post by Walter Bushell
Post by Osmium
Years ago, synergy was the catchy sounding word to show that combining
things was good, one of my favorites: Univac computers and New Holland hay
balers in Sperry Rand Corp.
Now, the in thing to do seems to be to break apart the pieces. I can't find
any equally appealing word for this process. Stay tuned to see what the
word mavens come up with.
Actually, I don't even know for a fact that New Holland actually made hay
balers, I just like the imagery.
Well, you see there is money to be made putting companies together and
taking them apart, but it's best to do it when everybody else is doing
it as if you are splitting where the others are joining, you have to
answer some awkward questions. Albeit everybody knows the game is
rigged and the fix is in.
"Synergy" is one direction. "Returning to core values", is the other.
(New holland made balers once.) I think that nowadays the design of
things are done by commpanies with expertise , then the actual
manufacturing
is done by others,
Not in some major industries like cars, heavy aircraft etc.

sometime in layers, on down, and then tax avoidence
Post by greymausg
is implemented at whatever level is needed. China thrived on the bottom
layers of manufacturing, but is building up higher expertise.
Joe Pfeiffer
2014-10-08 21:57:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by john james
Post by greymausg
Post by Walter Bushell
Post by Osmium
Years ago, synergy was the catchy sounding word to show that combining
things was good, one of my favorites: Univac computers and New Holland hay
balers in Sperry Rand Corp.
Now, the in thing to do seems to be to break apart the pieces. I can't find
any equally appealing word for this process. Stay tuned to see what the
word mavens come up with.
Actually, I don't even know for a fact that New Holland actually made hay
balers, I just like the imagery.
Well, you see there is money to be made putting companies together and
taking them apart, but it's best to do it when everybody else is doing
it as if you are splitting where the others are joining, you have to
answer some awkward questions. Albeit everybody knows the game is
rigged and the fix is in.
"Synergy" is one direction. "Returning to core values", is the other.
(New holland made balers once.) I think that nowadays the design of
things are done by commpanies with expertise , then the actual manufacturing
is done by others,
Not in some major industries like cars, heavy aircraft etc.
Though even in those areas, greater and greater portions of the
manufacturing is being farmed out to suppliers. The estimate I see for
the 787 is 30-40% outsourced.
Post by john james
sometime in layers, on down, and then tax avoidence
Post by greymausg
is implemented at whatever level is needed. China thrived on the bottom
layers of manufacturing, but is building up higher expertise.
john james
2014-10-09 00:09:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by john james
Post by greymausg
Post by Walter Bushell
Post by Osmium
Years ago, synergy was the catchy sounding word to show that combining
things was good, one of my favorites: Univac computers and New Holland hay
balers in Sperry Rand Corp.
Now, the in thing to do seems to be to break apart the pieces. I can't find
any equally appealing word for this process. Stay tuned to see what the
word mavens come up with.
Actually, I don't even know for a fact that New Holland actually made hay
balers, I just like the imagery.
Well, you see there is money to be made putting companies together and
taking them apart, but it's best to do it when everybody else is doing
it as if you are splitting where the others are joining, you have to
answer some awkward questions. Albeit everybody knows the game is
rigged and the fix is in.
"Synergy" is one direction. "Returning to core values", is the other.
(New holland made balers once.) I think that nowadays the design of
things are done by commpanies with expertise , then the actual manufacturing
is done by others,
Not in some major industries like cars, heavy aircraft etc.
Though even in those areas, greater and greater portions
of the manufacturing is being farmed out to suppliers. The
estimate I see for the 787 is 30-40% outsourced.
That isnt separating the design from the
manufacturing like we see with say Apple.
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by john james
sometime in layers, on down, and then tax avoidence
Post by greymausg
is implemented at whatever level is needed. China thrived on the bottom
layers of manufacturing, but is building up higher expertise.
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
2014-10-08 20:00:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by greymausg
"Synergy" is one direction. "Returning to core values", is the other.
(New holland made balers once.) I think that nowadays the design of
things are done by commpanies with expertise , then the actual
manufacturing is done by others, sometime in layers, on down, and then
tax avoidence is implemented at whatever level is needed. China
thrived on the bottom layers of manufacturing, but is building up
higher expertise.
Volcker (former fed chairman) quote about disappearing civil
enginneering jobs and univ. programs because of long term lack of
spending on infrastructure "Confidence Men", pg290:

Well, I said, 'The trouble with the United States recently is we spent
several decades not producing many civil engineers and producing a
huge number of financial engineers. And the result is s**tty bridges
and a s**tty financial system!

... snip ...

during the stimulus spending on "shovel ready projects" there were
articles about needing to hire chinese civil engineering firms ...
because of the lack in the US. recent references:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014g.html#45 To Forgive Design: Understanding Failure
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014i.html#33 War or Jobs
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014j.html#105 only sometimes From looms to computers to looms
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014j.html#106 only sometimes From looms to computers to looms

On War: The beautifully reproduced illustrated 1908 edition, with
introduction by Andy McNab, notes by Col. F.N. Maude and brief memoir of
General Clausewitz (Carl Von Clausewitz and Andy McNab)
http://www.amazon.com/War-beautifully-reproduced-illustrated-introduction-ebook/dp/B00G3DFLY8

from intro of the 1908 edition ... loc394-95:

As long as the Socialists only threatened capital they were not
seriously interfered with, for the Government knew quite well that the
undisputed sway of the employer was not for the ultimate good of the
State.

... snip ...

the government needed general population standard of living sufficient
that soldiers were willing to fight to preserve their way of
life. Capitilists tendency was to reduce worker standard of living to
the lowest possible ... below what the government needed for soldier
motivation ... and therefor needed socialists as counterbalance to the
capitalists in raising the general population standard of living.
--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
Stephen Sprunk
2014-10-08 20:21:35 UTC
Permalink
I think that nowadays the design of things are done by commpanies
with expertise , then the actual manufacturing is done by others,
sometime in layers, on down,
Yep. Unless you need exotic technologies (and most don't), it's much
cheaper to outsource manufacturing to a specialist. The value is in the
design labs, not the assembly line.
and then tax avoidence is implemented at whatever level is needed.
Of course. Getting people off your payroll also helps boost certain
statistics that analysts look at.
China thrived on the bottom layers of manufacturing, but is building
up higher expertise.
Yep, and that's not surprising; if you master building a product, then
it's natural to start working on how to design that product, and on up
the chain.

For now, most Chinese companies are just copying others, and they're
doing well in markets where price matters more than quality. The
faux-Communist mindset isn't used to asking customers what they want and
changing the products to suit. They're getting there--and their govt
will fall when they do.

S
--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
john james
2014-10-08 21:28:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Sprunk
I think that nowadays the design of things are done by commpanies
with expertise , then the actual manufacturing is done by others,
sometime in layers, on down,
Yep. Unless you need exotic technologies (and most don't),
it's much cheaper to outsource manufacturing to a specialist.
Trouble with that line is that the main manufacturing sector, cars, don’t do
it like that.
Post by Stephen Sprunk
The value is in the design labs, not the assembly line.
Doesn’t explain the heavy aircraft industry or military hardware either.
Post by Stephen Sprunk
and then tax avoidence is implemented at whatever level is needed.
Of course. Getting people off your payroll also helps boost certain
statistics that analysts look at.
China thrived on the bottom layers of manufacturing, but is building
up higher expertise.
Yep, and that's not surprising; if you master building a product, then
it's natural to start working on how to design that product, and on up
the chain.
For now, most Chinese companies are just copying others, and they're
doing well in markets where price matters more than quality. The
faux-Communist mindset isn't used to asking customers what they want and
changing the products to suit. They're getting there--and their govt
will fall when they do.
Not a chance in that last.
Andrew Swallow
2014-10-08 21:59:34 UTC
Permalink
On 08/10/2014 21:21, Stephen Sprunk wrote:
{snip}
Post by Stephen Sprunk
For now, most Chinese companies are just copying others, and they're
doing well in markets where price matters more than quality. The
faux-Communist mindset isn't used to asking customers what they want and
changing the products to suit. They're getting there--and their govt
will fall when they do.
Or the Chinese Government will purge the factories of anyone who asks
too many questions and is not a pure yes-man. Yes to the Chinese
politicians, not the Western customers.

The quality of Chinese made products will drop and they go out of fashion.

Andrew Swallow
john james
2014-10-09 00:11:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Swallow
{snip}
Post by Stephen Sprunk
For now, most Chinese companies are just copying others, and they're
doing well in markets where price matters more than quality. The
faux-Communist mindset isn't used to asking customers what they want and
changing the products to suit. They're getting there--and their govt
will fall when they do.
Or the Chinese Government will purge the factories of anyone who asks too
many questions and is not a pure yes-man. Yes to the Chinese politicians,
not the Western customers.
They haven't operated like that for a very long time now.
Post by Andrew Swallow
The quality of Chinese made products will drop
Not a chance.
Post by Andrew Swallow
and they go out of fashion.
And with that in spades.
Andrew Swallow
2014-10-09 06:30:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by john james
Post by Andrew Swallow
{snip}
Post by Stephen Sprunk
For now, most Chinese companies are just copying others, and they're
doing well in markets where price matters more than quality. The
faux-Communist mindset isn't used to asking customers what they want and
changing the products to suit. They're getting there--and their govt
will fall when they do.
Or the Chinese Government will purge the factories of anyone who asks
too many questions and is not a pure yes-man. Yes to the Chinese
politicians, not the Western customers.
They haven't operated like that for a very long time now.
Post by Andrew Swallow
The quality of Chinese made products will drop
Not a chance.
Post by Andrew Swallow
and they go out of fashion.
And with that in spades.
It will return.

Stephen Sprunk
2014-10-07 23:04:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Osmium
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Michael Black
I've seen at least three stories about how HP is splitting up,
consumer equipment to one company, "mainframe" (in a generic
sense) going to another branch.
One article mentioned an example of this happening before, when
IBM sold off it's small computer section, to Lenova.
But I've yet to see any article mentioning that HP is only half
the company it once was, since they already split, the
traditional test equipment now going under a new name, the HP
name going to the small computer business.
And now Agilent (the former heart of HP) is also splitting in
half.
Years ago, synergy was the catchy sounding word to show that
combining things was good, one of my favorites: Univac computers and
New Holland hay balers in Sperry Rand Corp.
Now, the in thing to do seems to be to break apart the pieces. I
can't find any equally appealing word for this process. Stay tuned
to see what the word mavens come up with.
The opposite of "synergy" is "focus".

Synergy does work when they're related businesses, so you get the boost
from reduced costs of sales: the same sales guy can sell multiple
related products to the same customer. In tech especially, the cost of
sales is usually larger than the costs of both manufacturing and
R&D--and often larger than both of them combined.

If you get too diversified, though, those synergies disappear and the
only real benefit is when your different divisions can sell enough
products _to each other_ to make up for the additional corporate
overhead--and that's pretty rare.

S
--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
Charlie Gibbs
2014-10-08 17:42:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Osmium
Years ago, synergy was the catchy sounding word to show that combining
things was good, one of my favorites: Univac computers and New Holland hay
balers in Sperry Rand Corp.
Yes, I remember noticing that both used the same typeface.
I found it somewhat amusing.
--
/~\ ***@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
Michael Black
2014-10-07 20:21:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Michael Black
I've seen at least three stories about how HP is splitting up,
consumer equipment to one company, "mainframe" (in a generic sense)
going to another branch.
One article mentioned an example of this happening before, when IBM
sold off it's small computer section, to Lenova.
But I've yet to see any article mentioning that HP is only half the
company it once was, since they already split, the traditional test
equipment now going under a new name, the HP name going to the small
computer business.
I almost bought an HP tablet, that summer a few years ago when they
suddenly were being sold off for a hundred dollars. But they went too
fast. HP had barely made an entrance, it was only a few months old,
and then they backed out. On the other hand, I've seen in the flyers,
HP tablets, so they must have gotten back into that some time later.
And now Agilent (the former heart of HP) is also splitting in half.
Along what lines is that split being made? The articles are only talking
about the "consumer" HP.

Michael
Joe Pfeiffer
2014-10-07 20:54:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Black
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Michael Black
I've seen at least three stories about how HP is splitting up,
consumer equipment to one company, "mainframe" (in a generic sense)
going to another branch.
One article mentioned an example of this happening before, when IBM
sold off it's small computer section, to Lenova.
But I've yet to see any article mentioning that HP is only half the
company it once was, since they already split, the traditional test
equipment now going under a new name, the HP name going to the small
computer business.
I almost bought an HP tablet, that summer a few years ago when they
suddenly were being sold off for a hundred dollars. But they went too
fast. HP had barely made an entrance, it was only a few months old,
and then they backed out. On the other hand, I've seen in the flyers,
HP tablets, so they must have gotten back into that some time later.
And now Agilent (the former heart of HP) is also splitting in half.
Along what lines is that split being made? The articles are only
talking about the "consumer" HP.
Ah, looks like it's already happened -- the life sciences technology
side is still Agilent, the measurement business is Keysight Technologies

http://www.agilent.com/home
http://www.keysight.com/main/home.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&cmpid=zzviewagfooter
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